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Re: [SCA-JML] On the registering of Mon

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  • Annette
    I wish there was a place in the SCA websight to check for Mon being registared and is registered. ... There are only two historical mon that are registered
    Message 1 of 23 , May 10, 2006
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      I wish there was a place in the SCA websight to check for Mon being registared and is registered.

      sigrune@... wrote: "Michael Nakashima" <zatumushgir@...> writes:

      >I was wondering how one should go about registering a specific mon.
      >Also, how many degrees of variance does one need from the original mon?

      There are only two historical "mon" that are registered in the SCA,
      Aside from these, and instances of preseumption, just about every other mon is safe, unless it is registered already by another person.

      >The two candidates for mon that I like are the crests for the Kumamoto
      >Clan and the Fukugawa family. Unfortunately, I am not at all sure if
      >either will be passable, and I'm also not at all sure how to describe
      >them in heraldic terms.

      I would advise you to get with your group or regional heralds to go over the specifics of conflict checking and details of the registration process, each kingdom has their own way of doing it.

      >The Kumamoto crest is three equlateral triangles that make up another
      >equlateral triangle (*sigh* To video game fans, a Triforce [I really
      >wish I had a better description]), all inside a circle.

      If I am not mistaken the (ahem) "Tri-Force" is already registered or is in process.

      >The Fukugawa crest is a three pointed mountain (volcano minus top?)
      >with three lines that make a zed shape at its bottom (definately a
      >river).

      There are a few multi point mountains already, best bet is to have a local herald do conflict checking first.

      I do not know if it has been said before, but the best use of the SCA-JML list concerning herladry is when your have already been with a local herald and the herald tells you that you need documentation and/or evidence that something was used historically.


      -Takeda



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    • Solveig Throndardottir
      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... The first decision you have to make when registering kamon is whether you want to register the thing as arms or as a
      Message 2 of 23 , May 10, 2006
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        Noble Cousin!

        Greetings from Solveig!

        > I was wondering how one should go about registering a specific mon.
        > Also, how many degrees of variance does one need from the original mon?

        The first decision you have to make when registering kamon is whether
        you want to register the thing as arms or as a badge. There are
        advantages and disadvantages to both options.

        1) With a badge you get to register something without a background and
        you get one point (out of two needed points) of difference for the
        background. However, the College of Arms thinks that the badge itself
        must be connected.

        2) With arms you don't have to have the the thing be connected, but you
        have to have a background.

        So it is is really a big BLEH! The College of Arms does not really
        service kamon all that well. What you can do is think of what you want
        your banner to look like and register that as your arms and try to
        figure out how to register the charge or charge group on the banner as
        a badge.

        > The two candidates for mon that I like are the crests for the Kumamoto
        > Clan and the Fukugawa family. Unfortunately, I am not at all sure if
        > either will be passable, and I'm also not at all sure how to describe
        > them in heraldic terms.

        The College of Arms does not compare submissions to either of these.
        Except for whatever feelings of politeness you might have, they are
        both fair game. Further, unrelated Japanese families frequently have
        the same kamon. So you will not be offending any Japanese unless you
        assume the Golden Sixteen Petal Chrysanthemum (a big no no in Japan you
        can get hauled off to jail) or another somewhat more complicated design
        which is associated with the government.

        > The Kumamoto crest is three equlateral triangles that make up another
        > equlateral triangle (*sigh* To video game fans, a Triforce [I really
        > wish I had a better description]), all inside a circle.

        No problem. You just have to worry about "difference" with already
        registered SCA armory.

        > The Fukugawa crest is a three pointed mountain (volcano minus top?)
        > with three lines that make a zed shape at its bottom (definately a
        > river).

        No problem here either.

        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar

        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
        | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
        | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
        | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
        | the trash by my email filters. |
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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Solveig Throndardottir
        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... There should be no problem as all he has to do is pick a different colour for his three triangles than the one picked
        Message 3 of 23 , May 10, 2006
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          Noble Cousin!

          Greetings from Solveig!

          >> The Kumamoto crest is three equlateral triangles that make up another
          >> equlateral triangle (*sigh* To video game fans, a Triforce [I really
          >> wish I had a better description]), all inside a circle.
          >
          > If I am not mistaken the (ahem) "Tri-Force" is already registered or
          > is in process.

          There should be no problem as all he has to do is pick a different
          colour for his three triangles than the one picked by the the
          submission going through the registration process. He gets one point
          for background and one point for the colour difference. Kaching! It
          passes! The only problem is that some nitwit might want to call it
          "offensive modernity" or some such thing. The actual design is
          demonstrably historical, so it should go through regardless.

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar

          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
          | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
          | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
          | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
          | the trash by my email filters. |
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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Solveig Throndardottir
          Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! The three triangles is the better design of the two and is quite ancient and dates to the early Kamakukra period. The
          Message 4 of 23 , May 10, 2006
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            Noble Cousins!

            Greetings from Solveig! The three triangles is the better design of the
            two and is quite ancient and dates to the early Kamakukra period. The
            other choice with the mountain does not show up in Daibukan prior to
            1600 and is most likely an early modern design. Consequently, I do hope
            that the three triangle motif is selected.

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar

            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
            | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
            | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
            | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
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          • Susan Campbell
            You can search the blazon (the heraldic language) at http://oanda.sca.org/ordinary/index.html I haven t found any place that all the arms are available in line
            Message 5 of 23 , May 10, 2006
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              You can search the blazon (the heraldic language) at http://oanda.sca.org/ordinary/index.html

              I haven't found any place that all the arms are available in line drawing form. If you know/find one let me know.

              For Atlantia you can review the herald letters which will get you what has passed in Kingdom and is heading to Society. Other Kingdoms may as well. In Atlantia that address is:

              http://herald.atlantia.sca.org/submissions/index.htm

              YIS,

              Mori Matsunomae




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Otagiri Tatsuzou
              ... Would this conflict with the following badge registered to the Ishiyama? (Dark) A mountain of three peaks issuant from base, the peaks in bend, and in
              Message 6 of 23 , May 10, 2006
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                > > The Fukugawa crest is a three pointed mountain (volcano minus top?)
                > > with three lines that make a zed shape at its bottom (definately a
                > > river).
                >
                > No problem here either.
                >

                Would this conflict with the following badge registered to the Ishiyama?
                (Dark) A mountain of three peaks issuant from base, the
                peaks in bend, and in chief a barrulet beviled arrondi, all within an
                annulet.

                http://oanda.sca.org/cgi-bin/oanda_name.cgi?p=Takaguma%20Ishiyama%20no%20Sadomoni%20Bashi



                Otagiri Tatsuzou
                Kenin of the Hatakeyama
              • Horatius at the Bridge
                Ok, two quick ones while we re on the topic. 1. When registering a mon, does it make a difference if the annulet is round, square or hexagonal? Or does the
                Message 7 of 23 , May 10, 2006
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                  Ok, two quick ones while we're on the topic.

                  1. When registering a mon, does it make a difference if the annulet is
                  round, square or hexagonal? Or does the word annulet describe only one
                  particular shape?

                  2. If the mon being registered bears an unitentional resemblance to a now
                  (presumably) defunct company can it still be registered? [I discovered that
                  something similar to the device I"m trying to get registered was used by a
                  film company in the early 60s. I can see at least 4 points of difference,
                  but this concerns me nonetheless.]

                  Thank you for your time.

                  "History doesn't always repeat itself. Sometimes it just screams, 'Why don't
                  you listen to me?' and lets fly with a big stick." --John W. Campbell Jr
                • chris hansen
                  Clan Ishiyama in what was the princapality, now kindom of the Outlands has not been particularily active (may no longer exist) since the death of Sir Tadashi
                  Message 8 of 23 , May 11, 2006
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                    Clan Ishiyama in what was the princapality, now kindom of the Outlands has not been particularily active (may no longer exist) since the death of Sir Tadashi some years ago. You may want to get on the Outlands or Barony of al Barran list to see if you can contact any remaining members.

                    Otagiri Tatsuzou <ronbroberg@...> wrote:
                    > > The Fukugawa crest is a three pointed mountain (volcano minus top?)
                    > > with three lines that make a zed shape at its bottom (definately a
                    > > river).
                    >
                    > No problem here either.
                    >

                    Would this conflict with the following badge registered to the Ishiyama?
                    (Dark) A mountain of three peaks issuant from base, the
                    peaks in bend, and in chief a barrulet beviled arrondi, all within an
                    annulet.

                    http://oanda.sca.org/cgi-bin/oanda_name.cgi?p=Takaguma%20Ishiyama%20no%20Sadomoni%20Bashi



                    Otagiri Tatsuzou
                    Kenin of the Hatakeyama





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                  • Michael Nakashima
                    ... http://oanda.sca.org/cgi-bin/oanda_name.cgi?p=Takaguma%20Ishiyama%20no%20Sadomoni%20Bashi ... Well...that sounds kinda like what I m going for...but I m
                    Message 9 of 23 , May 11, 2006
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                      > Would this conflict with the following badge registered to the Ishiyama?
                      > (Dark) A mountain of three peaks issuant from base, the
                      > peaks in bend, and in chief a barrulet beviled arrondi, all within an
                      > annulet.
                      >
                      >
                      http://oanda.sca.org/cgi-bin/oanda_name.cgi?p=Takaguma%20Ishiyama%20no%20Sadomoni%20Bashi
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Otagiri Tatsuzou
                      > Kenin of the Hatakeyama
                      >

                      Well...that sounds kinda like what I'm going for...but I'm not too
                      sure what the "in chief a barrulet beviled arrondi" looks like.
                      However, I'm wanting to register the mon as a device, so mayhap that
                      would make a difference...

                      Thanks for the info!


                      Hideyoshi
                    • Solveig Throndardottir
                      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... It does not exist yet. The College of Arms has a long-term scanning project. If you live nearby to where its going
                      Message 10 of 23 , May 11, 2006
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                        Noble Cousin!

                        Greetings from Solveig!

                        > I haven't found any place that all the arms are available in line
                        > drawing form. If you know/find one let me know.

                        It does not exist yet. The College of Arms has a long-term scanning
                        project. If you live nearby to where its going on, I'm confident that
                        they will accept your help.

                        Your Humble Servant
                        Solveig Throndardottir
                        Amateur Scholar

                        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                        | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                        | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                        | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                        | the trash by my email filters. |
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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Solveig Throndardottir
                        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... No, it should not conflict. However, I really hope that they go for the three triangles arranged in a triangle. Your
                        Message 11 of 23 , May 11, 2006
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                          Noble Cousin!

                          Greetings from Solveig!
                          > Would this conflict with the following badge registered to the
                          > Ishiyama?
                          > (Dark) A mountain of three peaks issuant from base, the
                          > peaks in bend, and in chief a barrulet beviled arrondi, all within an
                          > annulet.
                          >
                          > http://oanda.sca.org/cgi-bin/oanda_name.cgi?
                          > p=Takaguma%20Ishiyama%20no%20Sadomoni%20Bashi
                          No, it should not conflict.

                          However, I really hope that they go for the three triangles arranged in
                          a triangle.

                          Your Humble Servant
                          Solveig Throndardottir
                          Amateur Scholar

                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                          | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                          | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                          | the trash by my email filters. |
                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Solveig Throndardottir
                          Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Maybe yes, maybe no. It depends on exactly what you are doing and how the CoA decides to treat it. If the annulet
                          Message 12 of 23 , May 11, 2006
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                            Noble Cousin!

                            Greetings from Solveig!

                            > 1. When registering a mon, does it make a difference if the annulet is
                            > round, square or hexagonal? Or does the word annulet describe only one
                            > particular shape?

                            Maybe yes, maybe no. It depends on exactly what you are doing and how
                            the CoA decides to treat it. If the annulet goes all the way to the
                            edge, then it becomes a border and all borders of the same tincture are
                            equivalent. Incidentally, while there are a few examples of annulets in
                            pre-1600 kamon, they are not particularly popular until after 1600.
                            Basically, it is usually better style NOT to have an annulet.

                            > 2. If the mon being registered bears an unitentional resemblance to a
                            > now
                            > (presumably) defunct company can it still be registered? [I discovered
                            > that
                            > something similar to the device I"m trying to get registered was used
                            > by a
                            > film company in the early 60s. I can see at least 4 points of
                            > difference,
                            > but this concerns me nonetheless.]

                            The College of Arms does not currently compare things to trademarks.
                            Your only problem might be obtrusive modernity.

                            Your Humble Servant
                            Solveig Throndardottir
                            Amateur Scholar

                            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                            | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                            | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                            | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                            | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                            | the trash by my email filters. |
                            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Horatius at the Bridge
                            THank you very much for the information. History doesn t always repeat itself. Sometimes it just screams, Why don t you listen to me? and lets fly with a
                            Message 13 of 23 , May 11, 2006
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                              THank you very much for the information.


                              "History doesn't always repeat itself. Sometimes it just screams, 'Why don't
                              you listen to me?' and lets fly with a big stick." --John W. Campbell Jr





                              >From: Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
                              >Reply-To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                              >To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                              >Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] On the registering of Mon quick questions
                              >Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 21:07:15 -0400
                              >
                              >Noble Cousin!
                              >
                              >Greetings from Solveig!
                              >
                              > > 1. When registering a mon, does it make a difference if the annulet is
                              > > round, square or hexagonal? Or does the word annulet describe only one
                              > > particular shape?
                              >
                              >Maybe yes, maybe no. It depends on exactly what you are doing and how
                              >the CoA decides to treat it. If the annulet goes all the way to the
                              >edge, then it becomes a border and all borders of the same tincture are
                              >equivalent. Incidentally, while there are a few examples of annulets in
                              >pre-1600 kamon, they are not particularly popular until after 1600.
                              >Basically, it is usually better style NOT to have an annulet.
                              >
                              > > 2. If the mon being registered bears an unitentional resemblance to a
                              > > now
                              > > (presumably) defunct company can it still be registered? [I discovered
                              > > that
                              > > something similar to the device I"m trying to get registered was used
                              > > by a
                              > > film company in the early 60s. I can see at least 4 points of
                              > > difference,
                              > > but this concerns me nonetheless.]
                              >
                              >The College of Arms does not currently compare things to trademarks.
                              >Your only problem might be obtrusive modernity.
                              >
                              > Your Humble Servant
                              > Solveig Throndardottir
                              > Amateur Scholar
                              >
                              >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                              >| Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                              >| deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                              >| mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                              >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                              >| Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                              >| the trash by my email filters. |
                              >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                              >
                              >
                              >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • Rei Shounagon
                              Konnichiwa, minna-sama! ... It seems confusing to this one to use the word annulet to describe all sorts of encircling shapes, since the word annulet is
                              Message 14 of 23 , May 14, 2006
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                                Konnichiwa, minna-sama!

                                Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:

                                > Noble Cousin!
                                >
                                > Greetings from Solveig!
                                >
                                > > 1. When registering a mon, does it make a
                                > difference if the annulet is
                                > > round, square or hexagonal? Or does the word
                                > annulet describe only one
                                > > particular shape?
                                >
                                > Maybe yes, maybe no. It depends on exactly what you
                                > are doing and how
                                > the CoA decides to treat it. If the annulet goes all
                                > the way to the
                                > edge, then it becomes a border and all borders of
                                > the same tincture are
                                > equivalent. Incidentally, while there are a few
                                > examples of annulets in
                                > pre-1600 kamon, they are not particularly popular
                                > until after 1600.
                                > Basically, it is usually better style NOT to have an
                                > annulet.

                                It seems confusing to this one to use the word
                                'annulet' to describe all sorts of encircling shapes,
                                since the word 'annulet' is used in nanban heraldry to
                                mean a ring shape.

                                > > 2. If the mon being registered bears an
                                > unitentional resemblance to a
                                > > now
                                > > (presumably) defunct company can it still be
                                > registered? [I discovered
                                > > that
                                > > something similar to the device I"m trying to get
                                > registered was used
                                > > by a
                                > > film company in the early 60s. I can see at least
                                > 4 points of
                                > > difference,
                                > > but this concerns me nonetheless.]
                                >
                                > The College of Arms does not currently compare
                                > things to trademarks.
                                > Your only problem might be obtrusive modernity.

                                Unless it is a particularly well known trademark, you
                                have no need to worry on that score.

                                Rei

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                              • Solveig Throndardottir
                                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Ring like things that encircle a charge group are called wa in Japanese heraldry. The problem is how the thing gets
                                Message 15 of 23 , May 15, 2006
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                                  Noble Cousin!

                                  Greetings from Solveig!

                                  > It seems confusing to this one to use the word
                                  > 'annulet' to describe all sorts of encircling shapes,
                                  > since the word 'annulet' is used in nanban heraldry to
                                  > mean a ring shape.

                                  Ring like things that encircle a charge group are called "wa" in
                                  Japanese heraldry. The problem is how the thing gets expressed in the
                                  Anglo-Norman hearldry of the College of Arms. One way to do it is as an
                                  annulet and the other is as a border. If you are thinking of the Tohei
                                  (I think it was) logo which has a triangle on the bottom and three
                                  rings arching above it, then you are thinking of a design approach
                                  which is not, to the best of my recollection, seen in Japan prior to
                                  the seventeenth century. In short, if that is what you are thinking of
                                  doing, then please think of something else.

                                  Your Humble Servant
                                  Solveig Throndardottir
                                  Amateur Scholar

                                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                  | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                  | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                  | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                  | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                                  | the trash by my email filters. |
                                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Horatius at the Bridge
                                  Actually, it isn t the old Tohei logo, at least the name Tohei dosen t sound familiar from the description. Although, it is a fairly interesting one that I
                                  Message 16 of 23 , May 15, 2006
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                                    Actually, it isn't the old Tohei logo, at least the name Tohei dosen't sound
                                    familiar from the description. Although, it is a fairly interesting one that
                                    I wouldn't mind using for myself. I'm not sure of the company's name at the
                                    moment. The gentleman I'm helping isn't here right now. But the logo is a
                                    circle with a triangular section at the base and some kanji at the top. He
                                    means to modify it by removing the kanji and inserting an additional circle
                                    in the center, and then adding either a circle or hexagon around the whole
                                    thing.

                                    I have no idea about the original version's owner. Hopefully I"ve described
                                    it well enough for an enlightened opinion.



                                    "History doesn't always repeat itself. Sometimes it just screams, 'Why don't
                                    you listen to me?' and lets fly with a big stick." --John W. Campbell Jr





                                    >From: Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
                                    >Reply-To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                    >To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                    >Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] On the registering of Mon quick questions
                                    >Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 11:17:44 -0400
                                    >
                                    >Noble Cousin!
                                    >
                                    >Greetings from Solveig!
                                    >
                                    > > It seems confusing to this one to use the word
                                    > > 'annulet' to describe all sorts of encircling shapes,
                                    > > since the word 'annulet' is used in nanban heraldry to
                                    > > mean a ring shape.
                                    >
                                    >Ring like things that encircle a charge group are called "wa" in
                                    >Japanese heraldry. The problem is how the thing gets expressed in the
                                    >Anglo-Norman hearldry of the College of Arms. One way to do it is as an
                                    >annulet and the other is as a border. If you are thinking of the Tohei
                                    >(I think it was) logo which has a triangle on the bottom and three
                                    >rings arching above it, then you are thinking of a design approach
                                    >which is not, to the best of my recollection, seen in Japan prior to
                                    >the seventeenth century. In short, if that is what you are thinking of
                                    >doing, then please think of something else.
                                    >
                                    > Your Humble Servant
                                    > Solveig Throndardottir
                                    > Amateur Scholar
                                    >
                                    >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                    >| Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                    >| deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                    >| mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                                    >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                    >| Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                                    >| the trash by my email filters. |
                                    >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                  • Solveig Throndardottir
                                    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... With all due respect, BARF! The result sound hideous and definitely un-Japanese. Why not go for something nice and
                                    Message 17 of 23 , May 16, 2006
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                                      Noble Cousin!

                                      Greetings from Solveig!

                                      > But the logo is a circle with a triangular section at the base and
                                      > some kanji at the top. He
                                      > means to modify it by removing the kanji and inserting an additional
                                      > circle in the center,
                                      > and then adding either a circle or hexagon around the whole thing.

                                      With all due respect, BARF! The result sound hideous and definitely
                                      un-Japanese. Why not go for something nice and Japanese like:

                                      Two dragon flies respectant <tincture>
                                      A well frame <tincture>
                                      A losenge <tincture>
                                      Nine besants 3x3
                                      A besant surrounded by eight besants
                                      A rabbit afronty <tincture>
                                      Within a well frame a tachibana blossom <tincture>
                                      Three tortoise scales <tincture>

                                      ????

                                      No anullae or other froo-froo is necessary.

                                      Your Humble Servant
                                      Solveig Throndardottir
                                      Amateur Scholar

                                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                      | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                      | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                      | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                      | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                                      | the trash by my email filters. |
                                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Horatius at the Bridge
                                      What I find acceptable for a mon and what he wants to try to register are two different things. I went with a map symbol for my mon. He wants to be intricate.
                                      Message 18 of 23 , May 16, 2006
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                                        What I find acceptable for a mon and what he wants to try to register are
                                        two different things. I went with a map symbol for my mon. He wants to be
                                        intricate. And yes, to me its very un-japanese. I just advise and build. I
                                        try not to make judgements. I couldnt' even convince him to adapt something
                                        from the Matsudaira (sp?) Piece-Goods book. One that he was lookingat came
                                        from an Usagi Yojimbo comic book.

                                        Incidentally, since my linguistic skills seem to be lacking, Whats a basant?



                                        "History doesn't always repeat itself. Sometimes it just screams, 'Why don't
                                        you listen to me?' and lets fly with a big stick." --John W. Campbell Jr





                                        >From: Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
                                        >Reply-To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                        >To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                        >Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] On the registering of Mon quick questions
                                        >Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 17:48:11 -0400
                                        >
                                        >Noble Cousin!
                                        >
                                        >Greetings from Solveig!
                                        >
                                        > > But the logo is a circle with a triangular section at the base and
                                        > > some kanji at the top. He
                                        > > means to modify it by removing the kanji and inserting an additional
                                        > > circle in the center,
                                        > > and then adding either a circle or hexagon around the whole thing.
                                        >
                                        >With all due respect, BARF! The result sound hideous and definitely
                                        >un-Japanese. Why not go for something nice and Japanese like:
                                        >
                                        > Two dragon flies respectant <tincture>
                                        > A well frame <tincture>
                                        > A losenge <tincture>
                                        > Nine besants 3x3
                                        > A besant surrounded by eight besants
                                        > A rabbit afronty <tincture>
                                        > Within a well frame a tachibana blossom <tincture>
                                        > Three tortoise scales <tincture>
                                        >
                                        >????
                                        >
                                        >No anullae or other froo-froo is necessary.
                                        >
                                        > Your Humble Servant
                                        > Solveig Throndardottir
                                        > Amateur Scholar
                                        >
                                        >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                        >| Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                        >| deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                        >| mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                                        >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                        >| Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                                        >| the trash by my email filters. |
                                        >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                      • Elaine Koogler
                                        ... It s actually a bezant, and it s a disc that s colored gold or yellow. Kiri
                                        Message 19 of 23 , May 16, 2006
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Horatius at the Bridge wrote:
                                          > What I find acceptable for a mon and what he wants to try to register are
                                          > two different things. I went with a map symbol for my mon. He wants to be
                                          > intricate. And yes, to me its very un-japanese. I just advise and
                                          > build. I
                                          > try not to make judgements. I couldnt' even convince him to adapt
                                          > something
                                          > from the Matsudaira (sp?) Piece-Goods book. One that he was lookingat
                                          > came
                                          > from an Usagi Yojimbo comic book.
                                          >
                                          > Incidentally, since my linguistic skills seem to be lacking, Whats a
                                          > basant?
                                          >
                                          It's actually a bezant, and it's a disc that's colored gold or yellow.

                                          Kiri
                                        • Solveig Throndardottir
                                          Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Sounds like your client is smitten with Victorian English heraldry. Why not gently ask him whether he wants to have
                                          Message 20 of 23 , May 16, 2006
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                                            Noble Cousin!

                                            Greetings from Solveig! Sounds like your client is smitten with
                                            Victorian English heraldry. Why not gently ask him whether he wants to
                                            have something Japanese or not? I know, you have probably already tried
                                            this. He can of course try to put through Victorian English heraldry,
                                            but it just isn't Japanese. You should also gently ask him to not tell
                                            people that it is authentic if he insists upon something which is not
                                            remotely authentic. As the College of Arms says, "You asked for it!
                                            You've Got It! Toyota!" Just don't try to tell people that your Toyota
                                            is a Rolls Royce or a Stuts Bearcat.

                                            Your Humble Servant
                                            Solveig Throndardottir
                                            Amateur Scholar

                                            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                            | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                            | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                            | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                                            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                            | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                                            | the trash by my email filters. |
                                            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Horatius at the Bridge
                                            Personally, I always thought the Beacat was kinda cool. But thats me. Victorian English? I ll look into that. But I think he wants japanese because he enamored
                                            Message 21 of 23 , May 16, 2006
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Personally, I always thought the Beacat was kinda cool. But thats me.
                                              Victorian English? I'll look into that. But I think he wants japanese
                                              because he enamored with the armor and the general appearance of all things
                                              japanese.Or maybe its just the mystique.

                                              Oh well. Onward and upward. Thank you everyone for your advice. Hoefully I
                                              can avert a crisis before it fully begins.



                                              "History doesn't always repeat itself. Sometimes it just screams, 'Why don't
                                              you listen to me?' and lets fly with a big stick." --John W. Campbell Jr





                                              >From: Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
                                              >Reply-To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                              >To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                              >Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] On the registering of Mon quick questions
                                              >Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 22:07:55 -0400
                                              >
                                              >Noble Cousin!
                                              >
                                              >Greetings from Solveig! Sounds like your client is smitten with
                                              >Victorian English heraldry. Why not gently ask him whether he wants to
                                              >have something Japanese or not? I know, you have probably already tried
                                              >this. He can of course try to put through Victorian English heraldry,
                                              >but it just isn't Japanese. You should also gently ask him to not tell
                                              >people that it is authentic if he insists upon something which is not
                                              >remotely authentic. As the College of Arms says, "You asked for it!
                                              >You've Got It! Toyota!" Just don't try to tell people that your Toyota
                                              >is a Rolls Royce or a Stuts Bearcat.
                                              >
                                              > Your Humble Servant
                                              > Solveig Throndardottir
                                              > Amateur Scholar
                                              >
                                              >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                              >| Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                              >| deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                              >| mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                                              >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                              >| Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                                              >| the trash by my email filters. |
                                              >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >
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