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Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Beading projects

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  • Elaine Koogler
    ... While my knowledge of Japanese garb pales beside many on this list, I have been researching it for a number of years and, as is the case with others who
    Message 1 of 14 , Apr 7, 2006
      wodeford wrote:
      > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Melissa Russell" <virusq@...> wrote:
      > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Melissa Russell" <virusq@...> wrote:
      >
      > May I ask why you are so heart set on beading?
      >
      > > Hmm. I was aiming for some kind of jewelry or accessory piece for a
      > > project, like a hat or garment trim. I was hoping to put charges
      > from > my device onto the collar or sleeve of the top er... osode?
      >
      > I have 0 evidence of beadwork as garment trim in any of my textile
      > books for our period in Japan. (Note, I do not say they never did it.
      > I cannot prove they never did it. On the other hand I cannot prove
      > they did.) I did go looking and found a website while googling
      > "Japanese beadwork" that says certain types of bead embroidery got
      > popular during the Meiji period (19th century).
      >
      > Remember, these garments endure a great deal of contact with the
      > floor. They sat in them. They knelt in them. They used robes for
      > blankets while sleeping. And they took them apart to clean them, or to
      > resize them for other wearers, so there are practical considerations
      > to sewing protruding objects onto a garment.
      >
      > In Japan in our period and after, it's all about the textiles.
      > Textiles were decorated with dye, woven motifs, even gold leaf applied
      > to rice paste. (Embroidery, known in the Nara period for some reason
      > goes away for several centuries, comes back late in our period as an
      > imitation of hard to get Chinese imports.) You can see some of my
      > experiments at replicating some of these effects with fabric paint at
      > http://www.wodefordhall.com/fakingit.htm
      >
      > And I urge you to go look at the material on the Kyoto Costume Museum
      > website, both the history section and the textile gallery. If you find
      > evidence of a single bead stitched on a pre-17th century Japanese
      > garment, I would love to see it, because I am still learning these
      > things too.
      >
      > Saionji no Hanae, West Kingdom
      >
      While my knowledge of Japanese garb pales beside many on this list, I
      have been researching it for a number of years and, as is the case with
      others who have responded, I have never seen anything having to do with
      beadwork on Japanese clothing. Chinese, yes. Japanese, no. So if you
      want to do beadwork, I recommend you consider doing Chinese stuff.

      Kiri, Atlantia
    • Melissa Russell
      I wanted to incorporate something I enjoy into the SCA and give myself a project that I could research and learn from instead of just spending a bunch of money
      Message 2 of 14 , Apr 7, 2006
        I wanted to incorporate something I enjoy into the SCA and give myself a
        project that I could research and learn from instead of just spending a
        bunch of money on a crafting materials that would never leave a box. I'd
        love to do embroidery or painting, but I don't have the patience for either.
        (Although, the page on Sensu making is incredibly tempting...)

        In looking around the internet, I found that a lot of notible beaders and
        beadweavers are Russian and Japanese, but couldn't turn up anything beyond
        modern art. I thought that I'd see much more than I have, thereby prompting
        my question to the list. I figured someone would have seen something along
        the way and would be able to share it.

        I've seen prayer beads, crude strands of rock for necklaces and netsuke. I
        was just amazed that such an artistic culture (who seem to put a lot of
        spiritual value on certain stones and elements) wouldn't show beads more
        prominantly and assumed that I was just missing some essential step in my
        research.

        It makes sense, though, that if they lived in their clothing and sat
        directly on floors, that they wouldn't incorporate annoying rocks into
        garments. Talk about the princess and the pea! I just don't understand how
        they would have gold-leafed their clothes but not have sewn in something
        shiney.

        But what about hats, hairpins or lanyards? How about pearls? They were
        popular in China and India.

        I'm just curious.



        From: "wodeford" <wodeford@...>
        May I ask why you are so heart set on beading?

        I have 0 evidence of beadwork as garment trim in any of my textile
        books for our period in Japan. (Note, I do not say they never did it.
        I cannot prove they never did it. On the other hand I cannot prove
        they did.) I did go looking and found a website while googling
        "Japanese beadwork" that says certain types of bead embroidery got
        popular during the Meiji period (19th century).
      • wodeford
        ... Tsk tsk. You, my dear lady, should check out a collegium or university type event in your area. I ve had the opportunity to try my hand at wood carving
        Message 3 of 14 , Apr 7, 2006
          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Melissa Russell" <virusq@...> wrote:
          >
          > I wanted to incorporate something I enjoy into the SCA and give
          > myself a project that I could research and learn from instead of
          > just spending a bunch of money on a crafting materials that would
          > never leave a box.

          Tsk tsk. You, my dear lady, should check out a collegium or university
          type event in your area. I've had the opportunity to try my hand at
          wood carving (liked it a lot, explains the sensu experiments, doesn't
          it?), terra cotta sculpture (liked it a lot), metalwork (so so),
          lampwork bead making (hated it), fingerloop braiding.... First hit
          might even be free or only include a modest materials fee. You might
          find something you like.

          Certain types of bead work ARE appropriate to certain cultures.
          (Byzantium and Elizabethan England are two I can think of.)
          Unfortunately Japan isn't one of them.

          > I'd love to do embroidery or painting, but I don't have the patience
          > for either.
          Beading would make me psychotic. ;->

          > I've seen prayer beads, crude strands of rock for necklaces and
          > netsuke. I was just amazed that such an artistic culture (who seem
          > to put a lot of spiritual value on certain stones and elements)
          > wouldn't show beads more prominantly and assumed that I was just
          > missing some essential step in my research.
          Many of those spiritual and intellectual values are rooted in China.
          Say that an ancient Chinese Buddhist text makes its way to Japan and
          says The Shiny Happy Rock of Foo cures dandruff and brings harmony.
          Now, they don't have Shiny Happy Rocks of Foo in Japan because they
          only come from Foo which is practically in Tibet and nobody in Japan
          has ever seen one, but that doesn't mean that Japanese Buddhists
          aren't going to revere the properties of the Shiny Happy Rock of Foo
          if they ever happen to stub a toe on something that suddenly gives
          them a good hair day. And when the Emperor closes the country and
          stuff stops coming in from China, your chances of ever getting your
          hands on a Shiny Happy are pretty darn slim. Yes, I'm being facetious,
          but this explains why you can find tigers in the Japanese Zodiac when
          they are not an indigenous species to that part of Asia.

          > I just don't understand how they would have gold-leafed their
          > clothes but not have sewn in something shiney.
          They had other ways of doing shiny. BTW, that gold leaf technique is
          called surihaku, and it started as a way to fake a very hard-to-get
          Chinese brocade known as kinran that uses gold thread. And gold leaf
          does flake off (though it doesn't scratch up the floor or rip up the
          mats) but the whole falling-cherry-blossom-as-metaphor-for-the
          impermanence-of-existence makes it that much more beautiful and highly
          prized.)

          > But what about hats, hairpins or lanyards? How about pearls? They
          were
          > popular in China and India.

          http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/wayou/6.htm shows a Heian court lady
          dressed up for the most formal occasion and she has a gold comb in her
          hair with some danglies. That's about the only time I've seen one.
          Mostly, court or warrior-class women in period wore their hair very
          simply, long and straight, perhaps tied in a loose ponytail with - get
          this - plain white paper. (Simple, subtle, elegant, does not detract
          from the exquisite display of one's silks -or beautiful hair.) This
          lady is dressed for her wedding - no deely-bobs in sight:
          http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/wayou/12.htm

          I think the hats Solveig-hime mentioned might be for men. The court
          class wore a variety of hats, often denoting rank and/or formality of
          occasion. (Solveig-hime? Any more clues on this?)

          I also belong to a board called Immortal Geisha. I took the liberty of
          posting a request to see if anyone knew of bead embellishment on
          modern kimono or obi, and we got a rather interesting example, which
          is dated "Showa" (1926-1989). Here's the link:
          http://www.immortalgeisha.com/ig_bb/viewtopic.php?t=3558&highlight=

          Here's a recent discussion on wearing jewelry with traditional kimono.
          I include it because you may find it interesting.
          http://www.immortalgeisha.com/ig_bb/viewtopic.php?t=3102&highlight=jewelry

          Sorry not to have better news for you. Something may yet turn up, but
          my gut feeling is that it's rather unlikely.

          Saionji no Hanae,
          West Kingdom
        • Solveig Throndardottir
          Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... As I mentioned before, there were some ornamented hats inspired by Chinese models if you go back far enough. As for
          Message 4 of 14 , Apr 8, 2006
            Noble Cousin!

            Greetings from Solveig!
            > But what about hats, hairpins or lanyards? How about pearls? They
            > were
            > popular in China and India.
            As I mentioned before, there were some ornamented hats inspired by
            Chinese models if you go back far enough. As for hat pins, no you
            should not expect that. Hats were secured with cords. I do not know
            about gold leaf applied to clothing, but there was highly decorated
            brocade.

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar

            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
            | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
            | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
            | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
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          • Solveig Throndardottir
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Well, for example, there is the coronation hat of the emperor depicted in one on the Monumenta Nipponica texts on
            Message 5 of 14 , Apr 8, 2006
              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig!

              > I think the hats Solveig-hime mentioned might be for men. The court
              > class wore a variety of hats, often denoting rank and/or formality of
              > occasion. (Solveig-hime? Any more clues on this?)

              Well, for example, there is the coronation hat of the emperor depicted
              in one on the Monumenta Nipponica texts on Japanese enthronement
              ritual. There is also a variety of other hats worn by court officials.
              If you go back far enough, you may find some of these officials being
              women. One woman served twice as emperor.

              > Here's a recent discussion on wearing jewelry with traditional kimono.
              > I include it because you may find it interesting.
              > http://www.immortalgeisha.com/ig_bb/viewtopic.php?
              > t=3102&highlight=jewelry

              The tea ceremony and, if I recall correctly, the incense ceremony as
              well pretty much requires you to leave all jewelry at home.

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar

              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
              | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
              | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
              | the trash by my email filters. |
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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Solveig Throndardottir
              Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! You can take a look at a picture of a benkan from page 250 of The Emergence of Japanese Kingship by Joan R. Piggott.
              Message 6 of 14 , Apr 8, 2006
                Noble Cousin!

                Greetings from Solveig! You can take a look at a picture of a "benkan"
                from page 250 of The Emergence of Japanese Kingship by Joan R. Piggott.
                Stanford University Press, 1997.

                http://137.143.148.234/japan/benkan.pdf

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar

                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                | the trash by my email filters. |
                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Solveig Throndardottir
                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! You may have an easier time viewing: http://137.143.148.234/japan/benkan.jpg Your Humble Servant Solveig Throndardottir
                Message 7 of 14 , Apr 8, 2006
                  Noble Cousin!

                  Greetings from Solveig! You may have an easier time viewing:

                  http://137.143.148.234/japan/benkan.jpg

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar

                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                  | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                  | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                  | the trash by my email filters. |
                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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