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Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Beading projects

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  • Elaine Koogler
    ... While my knowledge of Japanese garb pales beside many on this list, I have been researching it for a number of years and, as is the case with others who
    Message 1 of 14 , Apr 7, 2006
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      wodeford wrote:
      > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Melissa Russell" <virusq@...> wrote:
      > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Melissa Russell" <virusq@...> wrote:
      >
      > May I ask why you are so heart set on beading?
      >
      > > Hmm. I was aiming for some kind of jewelry or accessory piece for a
      > > project, like a hat or garment trim. I was hoping to put charges
      > from > my device onto the collar or sleeve of the top er... osode?
      >
      > I have 0 evidence of beadwork as garment trim in any of my textile
      > books for our period in Japan. (Note, I do not say they never did it.
      > I cannot prove they never did it. On the other hand I cannot prove
      > they did.) I did go looking and found a website while googling
      > "Japanese beadwork" that says certain types of bead embroidery got
      > popular during the Meiji period (19th century).
      >
      > Remember, these garments endure a great deal of contact with the
      > floor. They sat in them. They knelt in them. They used robes for
      > blankets while sleeping. And they took them apart to clean them, or to
      > resize them for other wearers, so there are practical considerations
      > to sewing protruding objects onto a garment.
      >
      > In Japan in our period and after, it's all about the textiles.
      > Textiles were decorated with dye, woven motifs, even gold leaf applied
      > to rice paste. (Embroidery, known in the Nara period for some reason
      > goes away for several centuries, comes back late in our period as an
      > imitation of hard to get Chinese imports.) You can see some of my
      > experiments at replicating some of these effects with fabric paint at
      > http://www.wodefordhall.com/fakingit.htm
      >
      > And I urge you to go look at the material on the Kyoto Costume Museum
      > website, both the history section and the textile gallery. If you find
      > evidence of a single bead stitched on a pre-17th century Japanese
      > garment, I would love to see it, because I am still learning these
      > things too.
      >
      > Saionji no Hanae, West Kingdom
      >
      While my knowledge of Japanese garb pales beside many on this list, I
      have been researching it for a number of years and, as is the case with
      others who have responded, I have never seen anything having to do with
      beadwork on Japanese clothing. Chinese, yes. Japanese, no. So if you
      want to do beadwork, I recommend you consider doing Chinese stuff.

      Kiri, Atlantia
    • Solveig Throndardottir
      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! I do not know of a special name for the yayoi necklaces. In any case, the period is largely prehistoric. A bit later,
      Message 2 of 14 , Apr 7, 2006
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        Noble Cousin!

        Greetings from Solveig! I do not know of a special name for the yayoi
        necklaces. In any case, the period is largely prehistoric. A bit later,
        there are ceremonial hats patterned after Chinese models that have
        hanging strands of beads and stuff like that. These are also very
        early.

        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar

        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
        | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
        | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
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      • Melissa Russell
        I wanted to incorporate something I enjoy into the SCA and give myself a project that I could research and learn from instead of just spending a bunch of money
        Message 3 of 14 , Apr 7, 2006
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          I wanted to incorporate something I enjoy into the SCA and give myself a
          project that I could research and learn from instead of just spending a
          bunch of money on a crafting materials that would never leave a box. I'd
          love to do embroidery or painting, but I don't have the patience for either.
          (Although, the page on Sensu making is incredibly tempting...)

          In looking around the internet, I found that a lot of notible beaders and
          beadweavers are Russian and Japanese, but couldn't turn up anything beyond
          modern art. I thought that I'd see much more than I have, thereby prompting
          my question to the list. I figured someone would have seen something along
          the way and would be able to share it.

          I've seen prayer beads, crude strands of rock for necklaces and netsuke. I
          was just amazed that such an artistic culture (who seem to put a lot of
          spiritual value on certain stones and elements) wouldn't show beads more
          prominantly and assumed that I was just missing some essential step in my
          research.

          It makes sense, though, that if they lived in their clothing and sat
          directly on floors, that they wouldn't incorporate annoying rocks into
          garments. Talk about the princess and the pea! I just don't understand how
          they would have gold-leafed their clothes but not have sewn in something
          shiney.

          But what about hats, hairpins or lanyards? How about pearls? They were
          popular in China and India.

          I'm just curious.



          From: "wodeford" <wodeford@...>
          May I ask why you are so heart set on beading?

          I have 0 evidence of beadwork as garment trim in any of my textile
          books for our period in Japan. (Note, I do not say they never did it.
          I cannot prove they never did it. On the other hand I cannot prove
          they did.) I did go looking and found a website while googling
          "Japanese beadwork" that says certain types of bead embroidery got
          popular during the Meiji period (19th century).
        • wodeford
          ... Tsk tsk. You, my dear lady, should check out a collegium or university type event in your area. I ve had the opportunity to try my hand at wood carving
          Message 4 of 14 , Apr 7, 2006
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            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Melissa Russell" <virusq@...> wrote:
            >
            > I wanted to incorporate something I enjoy into the SCA and give
            > myself a project that I could research and learn from instead of
            > just spending a bunch of money on a crafting materials that would
            > never leave a box.

            Tsk tsk. You, my dear lady, should check out a collegium or university
            type event in your area. I've had the opportunity to try my hand at
            wood carving (liked it a lot, explains the sensu experiments, doesn't
            it?), terra cotta sculpture (liked it a lot), metalwork (so so),
            lampwork bead making (hated it), fingerloop braiding.... First hit
            might even be free or only include a modest materials fee. You might
            find something you like.

            Certain types of bead work ARE appropriate to certain cultures.
            (Byzantium and Elizabethan England are two I can think of.)
            Unfortunately Japan isn't one of them.

            > I'd love to do embroidery or painting, but I don't have the patience
            > for either.
            Beading would make me psychotic. ;->

            > I've seen prayer beads, crude strands of rock for necklaces and
            > netsuke. I was just amazed that such an artistic culture (who seem
            > to put a lot of spiritual value on certain stones and elements)
            > wouldn't show beads more prominantly and assumed that I was just
            > missing some essential step in my research.
            Many of those spiritual and intellectual values are rooted in China.
            Say that an ancient Chinese Buddhist text makes its way to Japan and
            says The Shiny Happy Rock of Foo cures dandruff and brings harmony.
            Now, they don't have Shiny Happy Rocks of Foo in Japan because they
            only come from Foo which is practically in Tibet and nobody in Japan
            has ever seen one, but that doesn't mean that Japanese Buddhists
            aren't going to revere the properties of the Shiny Happy Rock of Foo
            if they ever happen to stub a toe on something that suddenly gives
            them a good hair day. And when the Emperor closes the country and
            stuff stops coming in from China, your chances of ever getting your
            hands on a Shiny Happy are pretty darn slim. Yes, I'm being facetious,
            but this explains why you can find tigers in the Japanese Zodiac when
            they are not an indigenous species to that part of Asia.

            > I just don't understand how they would have gold-leafed their
            > clothes but not have sewn in something shiney.
            They had other ways of doing shiny. BTW, that gold leaf technique is
            called surihaku, and it started as a way to fake a very hard-to-get
            Chinese brocade known as kinran that uses gold thread. And gold leaf
            does flake off (though it doesn't scratch up the floor or rip up the
            mats) but the whole falling-cherry-blossom-as-metaphor-for-the
            impermanence-of-existence makes it that much more beautiful and highly
            prized.)

            > But what about hats, hairpins or lanyards? How about pearls? They
            were
            > popular in China and India.

            http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/wayou/6.htm shows a Heian court lady
            dressed up for the most formal occasion and she has a gold comb in her
            hair with some danglies. That's about the only time I've seen one.
            Mostly, court or warrior-class women in period wore their hair very
            simply, long and straight, perhaps tied in a loose ponytail with - get
            this - plain white paper. (Simple, subtle, elegant, does not detract
            from the exquisite display of one's silks -or beautiful hair.) This
            lady is dressed for her wedding - no deely-bobs in sight:
            http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/wayou/12.htm

            I think the hats Solveig-hime mentioned might be for men. The court
            class wore a variety of hats, often denoting rank and/or formality of
            occasion. (Solveig-hime? Any more clues on this?)

            I also belong to a board called Immortal Geisha. I took the liberty of
            posting a request to see if anyone knew of bead embellishment on
            modern kimono or obi, and we got a rather interesting example, which
            is dated "Showa" (1926-1989). Here's the link:
            http://www.immortalgeisha.com/ig_bb/viewtopic.php?t=3558&highlight=

            Here's a recent discussion on wearing jewelry with traditional kimono.
            I include it because you may find it interesting.
            http://www.immortalgeisha.com/ig_bb/viewtopic.php?t=3102&highlight=jewelry

            Sorry not to have better news for you. Something may yet turn up, but
            my gut feeling is that it's rather unlikely.

            Saionji no Hanae,
            West Kingdom
          • Solveig Throndardottir
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... As I mentioned before, there were some ornamented hats inspired by Chinese models if you go back far enough. As for
            Message 5 of 14 , Apr 8, 2006
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              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig!
              > But what about hats, hairpins or lanyards? How about pearls? They
              > were
              > popular in China and India.
              As I mentioned before, there were some ornamented hats inspired by
              Chinese models if you go back far enough. As for hat pins, no you
              should not expect that. Hats were secured with cords. I do not know
              about gold leaf applied to clothing, but there was highly decorated
              brocade.

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar

              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
              | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
              | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
              | the trash by my email filters. |
              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Solveig Throndardottir
              Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Well, for example, there is the coronation hat of the emperor depicted in one on the Monumenta Nipponica texts on
              Message 6 of 14 , Apr 8, 2006
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                Noble Cousin!

                Greetings from Solveig!

                > I think the hats Solveig-hime mentioned might be for men. The court
                > class wore a variety of hats, often denoting rank and/or formality of
                > occasion. (Solveig-hime? Any more clues on this?)

                Well, for example, there is the coronation hat of the emperor depicted
                in one on the Monumenta Nipponica texts on Japanese enthronement
                ritual. There is also a variety of other hats worn by court officials.
                If you go back far enough, you may find some of these officials being
                women. One woman served twice as emperor.

                > Here's a recent discussion on wearing jewelry with traditional kimono.
                > I include it because you may find it interesting.
                > http://www.immortalgeisha.com/ig_bb/viewtopic.php?
                > t=3102&highlight=jewelry

                The tea ceremony and, if I recall correctly, the incense ceremony as
                well pretty much requires you to leave all jewelry at home.

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar

                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                | the trash by my email filters. |
                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Solveig Throndardottir
                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! You can take a look at a picture of a benkan from page 250 of The Emergence of Japanese Kingship by Joan R. Piggott.
                Message 7 of 14 , Apr 8, 2006
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                  Noble Cousin!

                  Greetings from Solveig! You can take a look at a picture of a "benkan"
                  from page 250 of The Emergence of Japanese Kingship by Joan R. Piggott.
                  Stanford University Press, 1997.

                  http://137.143.148.234/japan/benkan.pdf

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar

                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                  | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                  | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                  | the trash by my email filters. |
                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Solveig Throndardottir
                  Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! You may have an easier time viewing: http://137.143.148.234/japan/benkan.jpg Your Humble Servant Solveig Throndardottir
                  Message 8 of 14 , Apr 8, 2006
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                    Noble Cousin!

                    Greetings from Solveig! You may have an easier time viewing:

                    http://137.143.148.234/japan/benkan.jpg

                    Your Humble Servant
                    Solveig Throndardottir
                    Amateur Scholar

                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                    | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                    | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                    | the trash by my email filters. |
                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


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