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Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Beading projects

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  • Melissa Russell
    Hmm. I was aiming for some kind of jewelry or accessory piece for a project, like a hat or garment trim. I was hoping to put charges from my device onto the
    Message 1 of 14 , Apr 7, 2006
      Hmm. I was aiming for some kind of jewelry or accessory piece for a
      project, like a hat or garment trim. I was hoping to put charges from my
      device onto the collar or sleeve of the top er... osode? Beaded hats or
      hairpins would be perfect, but I'm really just looking for what they did
      with them.

      About how far back would I have to look for the beaded hats? Do the Yayoi
      necklaces have a specific name?

      From: Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
      Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 01:31:11 -0400

      Well, it all depends on what you mean by beading. There was a kind of
      bead necklace worn during the Yayoi period. If you mean things like
      beaded American Indian belts, then I really can not think of Japanese
      examples. There were glass beads used to play games. And there are hats
      which appear to contain a single bead. Also, if you go back far enough,
      you can find some pretty extravegant head gear which appears to contain
      beads. Rather large glass beads are used to play children's games and
      you can argue that go stones are a kind of bead I suppose.
    • wodeford
      ... May I ask why you are so heart set on beading? ... from my device onto the collar or sleeve of the top er... osode? I have 0 evidence of beadwork as
      Message 2 of 14 , Apr 7, 2006
        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Melissa Russell" <virusq@...> wrote:
        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Melissa Russell" <virusq@...> wrote:

        May I ask why you are so heart set on beading?

        > Hmm. I was aiming for some kind of jewelry or accessory piece for a
        > project, like a hat or garment trim. I was hoping to put charges
        from > my device onto the collar or sleeve of the top er... osode?

        I have 0 evidence of beadwork as garment trim in any of my textile
        books for our period in Japan. (Note, I do not say they never did it.
        I cannot prove they never did it. On the other hand I cannot prove
        they did.) I did go looking and found a website while googling
        "Japanese beadwork" that says certain types of bead embroidery got
        popular during the Meiji period (19th century).

        Remember, these garments endure a great deal of contact with the
        floor. They sat in them. They knelt in them. They used robes for
        blankets while sleeping. And they took them apart to clean them, or to
        resize them for other wearers, so there are practical considerations
        to sewing protruding objects onto a garment.

        In Japan in our period and after, it's all about the textiles.
        Textiles were decorated with dye, woven motifs, even gold leaf applied
        to rice paste. (Embroidery, known in the Nara period for some reason
        goes away for several centuries, comes back late in our period as an
        imitation of hard to get Chinese imports.) You can see some of my
        experiments at replicating some of these effects with fabric paint at
        http://www.wodefordhall.com/fakingit.htm

        And I urge you to go look at the material on the Kyoto Costume Museum
        website, both the history section and the textile gallery. If you find
        evidence of a single bead stitched on a pre-17th century Japanese
        garment, I would love to see it, because I am still learning these
        things too.

        Saionji no Hanae, West Kingdom
      • Elaine Koogler
        ... While my knowledge of Japanese garb pales beside many on this list, I have been researching it for a number of years and, as is the case with others who
        Message 3 of 14 , Apr 7, 2006
          wodeford wrote:
          > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Melissa Russell" <virusq@...> wrote:
          > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Melissa Russell" <virusq@...> wrote:
          >
          > May I ask why you are so heart set on beading?
          >
          > > Hmm. I was aiming for some kind of jewelry or accessory piece for a
          > > project, like a hat or garment trim. I was hoping to put charges
          > from > my device onto the collar or sleeve of the top er... osode?
          >
          > I have 0 evidence of beadwork as garment trim in any of my textile
          > books for our period in Japan. (Note, I do not say they never did it.
          > I cannot prove they never did it. On the other hand I cannot prove
          > they did.) I did go looking and found a website while googling
          > "Japanese beadwork" that says certain types of bead embroidery got
          > popular during the Meiji period (19th century).
          >
          > Remember, these garments endure a great deal of contact with the
          > floor. They sat in them. They knelt in them. They used robes for
          > blankets while sleeping. And they took them apart to clean them, or to
          > resize them for other wearers, so there are practical considerations
          > to sewing protruding objects onto a garment.
          >
          > In Japan in our period and after, it's all about the textiles.
          > Textiles were decorated with dye, woven motifs, even gold leaf applied
          > to rice paste. (Embroidery, known in the Nara period for some reason
          > goes away for several centuries, comes back late in our period as an
          > imitation of hard to get Chinese imports.) You can see some of my
          > experiments at replicating some of these effects with fabric paint at
          > http://www.wodefordhall.com/fakingit.htm
          >
          > And I urge you to go look at the material on the Kyoto Costume Museum
          > website, both the history section and the textile gallery. If you find
          > evidence of a single bead stitched on a pre-17th century Japanese
          > garment, I would love to see it, because I am still learning these
          > things too.
          >
          > Saionji no Hanae, West Kingdom
          >
          While my knowledge of Japanese garb pales beside many on this list, I
          have been researching it for a number of years and, as is the case with
          others who have responded, I have never seen anything having to do with
          beadwork on Japanese clothing. Chinese, yes. Japanese, no. So if you
          want to do beadwork, I recommend you consider doing Chinese stuff.

          Kiri, Atlantia
        • Solveig Throndardottir
          Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! I do not know of a special name for the yayoi necklaces. In any case, the period is largely prehistoric. A bit later,
          Message 4 of 14 , Apr 7, 2006
            Noble Cousin!

            Greetings from Solveig! I do not know of a special name for the yayoi
            necklaces. In any case, the period is largely prehistoric. A bit later,
            there are ceremonial hats patterned after Chinese models that have
            hanging strands of beads and stuff like that. These are also very
            early.

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar

            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
            | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
            | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
            | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
            | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
            | the trash by my email filters. |
            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Melissa Russell
            I wanted to incorporate something I enjoy into the SCA and give myself a project that I could research and learn from instead of just spending a bunch of money
            Message 5 of 14 , Apr 7, 2006
              I wanted to incorporate something I enjoy into the SCA and give myself a
              project that I could research and learn from instead of just spending a
              bunch of money on a crafting materials that would never leave a box. I'd
              love to do embroidery or painting, but I don't have the patience for either.
              (Although, the page on Sensu making is incredibly tempting...)

              In looking around the internet, I found that a lot of notible beaders and
              beadweavers are Russian and Japanese, but couldn't turn up anything beyond
              modern art. I thought that I'd see much more than I have, thereby prompting
              my question to the list. I figured someone would have seen something along
              the way and would be able to share it.

              I've seen prayer beads, crude strands of rock for necklaces and netsuke. I
              was just amazed that such an artistic culture (who seem to put a lot of
              spiritual value on certain stones and elements) wouldn't show beads more
              prominantly and assumed that I was just missing some essential step in my
              research.

              It makes sense, though, that if they lived in their clothing and sat
              directly on floors, that they wouldn't incorporate annoying rocks into
              garments. Talk about the princess and the pea! I just don't understand how
              they would have gold-leafed their clothes but not have sewn in something
              shiney.

              But what about hats, hairpins or lanyards? How about pearls? They were
              popular in China and India.

              I'm just curious.



              From: "wodeford" <wodeford@...>
              May I ask why you are so heart set on beading?

              I have 0 evidence of beadwork as garment trim in any of my textile
              books for our period in Japan. (Note, I do not say they never did it.
              I cannot prove they never did it. On the other hand I cannot prove
              they did.) I did go looking and found a website while googling
              "Japanese beadwork" that says certain types of bead embroidery got
              popular during the Meiji period (19th century).
            • wodeford
              ... Tsk tsk. You, my dear lady, should check out a collegium or university type event in your area. I ve had the opportunity to try my hand at wood carving
              Message 6 of 14 , Apr 7, 2006
                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Melissa Russell" <virusq@...> wrote:
                >
                > I wanted to incorporate something I enjoy into the SCA and give
                > myself a project that I could research and learn from instead of
                > just spending a bunch of money on a crafting materials that would
                > never leave a box.

                Tsk tsk. You, my dear lady, should check out a collegium or university
                type event in your area. I've had the opportunity to try my hand at
                wood carving (liked it a lot, explains the sensu experiments, doesn't
                it?), terra cotta sculpture (liked it a lot), metalwork (so so),
                lampwork bead making (hated it), fingerloop braiding.... First hit
                might even be free or only include a modest materials fee. You might
                find something you like.

                Certain types of bead work ARE appropriate to certain cultures.
                (Byzantium and Elizabethan England are two I can think of.)
                Unfortunately Japan isn't one of them.

                > I'd love to do embroidery or painting, but I don't have the patience
                > for either.
                Beading would make me psychotic. ;->

                > I've seen prayer beads, crude strands of rock for necklaces and
                > netsuke. I was just amazed that such an artistic culture (who seem
                > to put a lot of spiritual value on certain stones and elements)
                > wouldn't show beads more prominantly and assumed that I was just
                > missing some essential step in my research.
                Many of those spiritual and intellectual values are rooted in China.
                Say that an ancient Chinese Buddhist text makes its way to Japan and
                says The Shiny Happy Rock of Foo cures dandruff and brings harmony.
                Now, they don't have Shiny Happy Rocks of Foo in Japan because they
                only come from Foo which is practically in Tibet and nobody in Japan
                has ever seen one, but that doesn't mean that Japanese Buddhists
                aren't going to revere the properties of the Shiny Happy Rock of Foo
                if they ever happen to stub a toe on something that suddenly gives
                them a good hair day. And when the Emperor closes the country and
                stuff stops coming in from China, your chances of ever getting your
                hands on a Shiny Happy are pretty darn slim. Yes, I'm being facetious,
                but this explains why you can find tigers in the Japanese Zodiac when
                they are not an indigenous species to that part of Asia.

                > I just don't understand how they would have gold-leafed their
                > clothes but not have sewn in something shiney.
                They had other ways of doing shiny. BTW, that gold leaf technique is
                called surihaku, and it started as a way to fake a very hard-to-get
                Chinese brocade known as kinran that uses gold thread. And gold leaf
                does flake off (though it doesn't scratch up the floor or rip up the
                mats) but the whole falling-cherry-blossom-as-metaphor-for-the
                impermanence-of-existence makes it that much more beautiful and highly
                prized.)

                > But what about hats, hairpins or lanyards? How about pearls? They
                were
                > popular in China and India.

                http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/wayou/6.htm shows a Heian court lady
                dressed up for the most formal occasion and she has a gold comb in her
                hair with some danglies. That's about the only time I've seen one.
                Mostly, court or warrior-class women in period wore their hair very
                simply, long and straight, perhaps tied in a loose ponytail with - get
                this - plain white paper. (Simple, subtle, elegant, does not detract
                from the exquisite display of one's silks -or beautiful hair.) This
                lady is dressed for her wedding - no deely-bobs in sight:
                http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/wayou/12.htm

                I think the hats Solveig-hime mentioned might be for men. The court
                class wore a variety of hats, often denoting rank and/or formality of
                occasion. (Solveig-hime? Any more clues on this?)

                I also belong to a board called Immortal Geisha. I took the liberty of
                posting a request to see if anyone knew of bead embellishment on
                modern kimono or obi, and we got a rather interesting example, which
                is dated "Showa" (1926-1989). Here's the link:
                http://www.immortalgeisha.com/ig_bb/viewtopic.php?t=3558&highlight=

                Here's a recent discussion on wearing jewelry with traditional kimono.
                I include it because you may find it interesting.
                http://www.immortalgeisha.com/ig_bb/viewtopic.php?t=3102&highlight=jewelry

                Sorry not to have better news for you. Something may yet turn up, but
                my gut feeling is that it's rather unlikely.

                Saionji no Hanae,
                West Kingdom
              • Solveig Throndardottir
                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... As I mentioned before, there were some ornamented hats inspired by Chinese models if you go back far enough. As for
                Message 7 of 14 , Apr 8, 2006
                  Noble Cousin!

                  Greetings from Solveig!
                  > But what about hats, hairpins or lanyards? How about pearls? They
                  > were
                  > popular in China and India.
                  As I mentioned before, there were some ornamented hats inspired by
                  Chinese models if you go back far enough. As for hat pins, no you
                  should not expect that. Hats were secured with cords. I do not know
                  about gold leaf applied to clothing, but there was highly decorated
                  brocade.

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar

                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                  | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                  | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                  | the trash by my email filters. |
                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Solveig Throndardottir
                  Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Well, for example, there is the coronation hat of the emperor depicted in one on the Monumenta Nipponica texts on
                  Message 8 of 14 , Apr 8, 2006
                    Noble Cousin!

                    Greetings from Solveig!

                    > I think the hats Solveig-hime mentioned might be for men. The court
                    > class wore a variety of hats, often denoting rank and/or formality of
                    > occasion. (Solveig-hime? Any more clues on this?)

                    Well, for example, there is the coronation hat of the emperor depicted
                    in one on the Monumenta Nipponica texts on Japanese enthronement
                    ritual. There is also a variety of other hats worn by court officials.
                    If you go back far enough, you may find some of these officials being
                    women. One woman served twice as emperor.

                    > Here's a recent discussion on wearing jewelry with traditional kimono.
                    > I include it because you may find it interesting.
                    > http://www.immortalgeisha.com/ig_bb/viewtopic.php?
                    > t=3102&highlight=jewelry

                    The tea ceremony and, if I recall correctly, the incense ceremony as
                    well pretty much requires you to leave all jewelry at home.

                    Your Humble Servant
                    Solveig Throndardottir
                    Amateur Scholar

                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                    | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                    | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                    | the trash by my email filters. |
                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Solveig Throndardottir
                    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! You can take a look at a picture of a benkan from page 250 of The Emergence of Japanese Kingship by Joan R. Piggott.
                    Message 9 of 14 , Apr 8, 2006
                      Noble Cousin!

                      Greetings from Solveig! You can take a look at a picture of a "benkan"
                      from page 250 of The Emergence of Japanese Kingship by Joan R. Piggott.
                      Stanford University Press, 1997.

                      http://137.143.148.234/japan/benkan.pdf

                      Your Humble Servant
                      Solveig Throndardottir
                      Amateur Scholar

                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                      | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                      | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                      | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                      | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                      | the trash by my email filters. |
                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Solveig Throndardottir
                      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! You may have an easier time viewing: http://137.143.148.234/japan/benkan.jpg Your Humble Servant Solveig Throndardottir
                      Message 10 of 14 , Apr 8, 2006
                        Noble Cousin!

                        Greetings from Solveig! You may have an easier time viewing:

                        http://137.143.148.234/japan/benkan.jpg

                        Your Humble Servant
                        Solveig Throndardottir
                        Amateur Scholar

                        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                        | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                        | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                        | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                        | the trash by my email filters. |
                        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


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