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Re: [SCA-JML] Beading projects

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  • Tracie Ellis
    Ah, a lady after my own heart. Though I study mostly gemstones and their uses... If anyone has anything, please email us both? Deeply indebted *low, forehead
    Message 1 of 14 , Apr 6, 2006
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      Ah, a lady after my own heart. Though I study mostly gemstones and their
      uses...

      If anyone has anything, please email us both? Deeply indebted *low,
      forehead to ground bow*

      Miriel (lurker)

      On 4/6/06, Melissa Russell <virusq@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hello!
      >
      > I'm trying to get more into the arts side of the SCA and have been looking
      >
      > for some examples of Japanese beading projects. I know they had beads and
      > I
      > know they used them, I just can't seem to find any finished projects or
      > applications aside from those inro boxy thingies.
      >
      > Does anyone have any suggestions for websites or books that may help me on
      >
      > my way?
      >
      > Also, how wide was the average Japanese loom (say... Heian/Kamakura era)?
      > I
      > tried making a kosode based on information that stated the fabric pieces
      > were 16" wide and it turned out -huge-. (I can't imagine wearing 3 or 4
      > more layers!) Since then, I've found information stating that fabric
      > strips
      > where anywhere from 8" to 15" inches wide, so I was wondering what the
      > most
      > common width would have been.
      >
      > And ... is it really worth tracking down hemp instead of linen? Does one
      > wear/breathe better or is one just more historically accurate than the
      > other?
      >
      > Thank you!
      >
      > -Lady Dayone the Dark
      > Atenveldt
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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      --
      Email me for designs on period "like" jewelry.


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Melissa Russell
      Hmm. I was aiming for some kind of jewelry or accessory piece for a project, like a hat or garment trim. I was hoping to put charges from my device onto the
      Message 2 of 14 , Apr 7, 2006
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        Hmm. I was aiming for some kind of jewelry or accessory piece for a
        project, like a hat or garment trim. I was hoping to put charges from my
        device onto the collar or sleeve of the top er... osode? Beaded hats or
        hairpins would be perfect, but I'm really just looking for what they did
        with them.

        About how far back would I have to look for the beaded hats? Do the Yayoi
        necklaces have a specific name?

        From: Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
        Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 01:31:11 -0400

        Well, it all depends on what you mean by beading. There was a kind of
        bead necklace worn during the Yayoi period. If you mean things like
        beaded American Indian belts, then I really can not think of Japanese
        examples. There were glass beads used to play games. And there are hats
        which appear to contain a single bead. Also, if you go back far enough,
        you can find some pretty extravegant head gear which appears to contain
        beads. Rather large glass beads are used to play children's games and
        you can argue that go stones are a kind of bead I suppose.
      • wodeford
        ... May I ask why you are so heart set on beading? ... from my device onto the collar or sleeve of the top er... osode? I have 0 evidence of beadwork as
        Message 3 of 14 , Apr 7, 2006
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          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Melissa Russell" <virusq@...> wrote:
          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Melissa Russell" <virusq@...> wrote:

          May I ask why you are so heart set on beading?

          > Hmm. I was aiming for some kind of jewelry or accessory piece for a
          > project, like a hat or garment trim. I was hoping to put charges
          from > my device onto the collar or sleeve of the top er... osode?

          I have 0 evidence of beadwork as garment trim in any of my textile
          books for our period in Japan. (Note, I do not say they never did it.
          I cannot prove they never did it. On the other hand I cannot prove
          they did.) I did go looking and found a website while googling
          "Japanese beadwork" that says certain types of bead embroidery got
          popular during the Meiji period (19th century).

          Remember, these garments endure a great deal of contact with the
          floor. They sat in them. They knelt in them. They used robes for
          blankets while sleeping. And they took them apart to clean them, or to
          resize them for other wearers, so there are practical considerations
          to sewing protruding objects onto a garment.

          In Japan in our period and after, it's all about the textiles.
          Textiles were decorated with dye, woven motifs, even gold leaf applied
          to rice paste. (Embroidery, known in the Nara period for some reason
          goes away for several centuries, comes back late in our period as an
          imitation of hard to get Chinese imports.) You can see some of my
          experiments at replicating some of these effects with fabric paint at
          http://www.wodefordhall.com/fakingit.htm

          And I urge you to go look at the material on the Kyoto Costume Museum
          website, both the history section and the textile gallery. If you find
          evidence of a single bead stitched on a pre-17th century Japanese
          garment, I would love to see it, because I am still learning these
          things too.

          Saionji no Hanae, West Kingdom
        • Elaine Koogler
          ... While my knowledge of Japanese garb pales beside many on this list, I have been researching it for a number of years and, as is the case with others who
          Message 4 of 14 , Apr 7, 2006
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            wodeford wrote:
            > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Melissa Russell" <virusq@...> wrote:
            > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Melissa Russell" <virusq@...> wrote:
            >
            > May I ask why you are so heart set on beading?
            >
            > > Hmm. I was aiming for some kind of jewelry or accessory piece for a
            > > project, like a hat or garment trim. I was hoping to put charges
            > from > my device onto the collar or sleeve of the top er... osode?
            >
            > I have 0 evidence of beadwork as garment trim in any of my textile
            > books for our period in Japan. (Note, I do not say they never did it.
            > I cannot prove they never did it. On the other hand I cannot prove
            > they did.) I did go looking and found a website while googling
            > "Japanese beadwork" that says certain types of bead embroidery got
            > popular during the Meiji period (19th century).
            >
            > Remember, these garments endure a great deal of contact with the
            > floor. They sat in them. They knelt in them. They used robes for
            > blankets while sleeping. And they took them apart to clean them, or to
            > resize them for other wearers, so there are practical considerations
            > to sewing protruding objects onto a garment.
            >
            > In Japan in our period and after, it's all about the textiles.
            > Textiles were decorated with dye, woven motifs, even gold leaf applied
            > to rice paste. (Embroidery, known in the Nara period for some reason
            > goes away for several centuries, comes back late in our period as an
            > imitation of hard to get Chinese imports.) You can see some of my
            > experiments at replicating some of these effects with fabric paint at
            > http://www.wodefordhall.com/fakingit.htm
            >
            > And I urge you to go look at the material on the Kyoto Costume Museum
            > website, both the history section and the textile gallery. If you find
            > evidence of a single bead stitched on a pre-17th century Japanese
            > garment, I would love to see it, because I am still learning these
            > things too.
            >
            > Saionji no Hanae, West Kingdom
            >
            While my knowledge of Japanese garb pales beside many on this list, I
            have been researching it for a number of years and, as is the case with
            others who have responded, I have never seen anything having to do with
            beadwork on Japanese clothing. Chinese, yes. Japanese, no. So if you
            want to do beadwork, I recommend you consider doing Chinese stuff.

            Kiri, Atlantia
          • Solveig Throndardottir
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! I do not know of a special name for the yayoi necklaces. In any case, the period is largely prehistoric. A bit later,
            Message 5 of 14 , Apr 7, 2006
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              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig! I do not know of a special name for the yayoi
              necklaces. In any case, the period is largely prehistoric. A bit later,
              there are ceremonial hats patterned after Chinese models that have
              hanging strands of beads and stuff like that. These are also very
              early.

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar

              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
              | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
              | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
              | the trash by my email filters. |
              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Melissa Russell
              I wanted to incorporate something I enjoy into the SCA and give myself a project that I could research and learn from instead of just spending a bunch of money
              Message 6 of 14 , Apr 7, 2006
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                I wanted to incorporate something I enjoy into the SCA and give myself a
                project that I could research and learn from instead of just spending a
                bunch of money on a crafting materials that would never leave a box. I'd
                love to do embroidery or painting, but I don't have the patience for either.
                (Although, the page on Sensu making is incredibly tempting...)

                In looking around the internet, I found that a lot of notible beaders and
                beadweavers are Russian and Japanese, but couldn't turn up anything beyond
                modern art. I thought that I'd see much more than I have, thereby prompting
                my question to the list. I figured someone would have seen something along
                the way and would be able to share it.

                I've seen prayer beads, crude strands of rock for necklaces and netsuke. I
                was just amazed that such an artistic culture (who seem to put a lot of
                spiritual value on certain stones and elements) wouldn't show beads more
                prominantly and assumed that I was just missing some essential step in my
                research.

                It makes sense, though, that if they lived in their clothing and sat
                directly on floors, that they wouldn't incorporate annoying rocks into
                garments. Talk about the princess and the pea! I just don't understand how
                they would have gold-leafed their clothes but not have sewn in something
                shiney.

                But what about hats, hairpins or lanyards? How about pearls? They were
                popular in China and India.

                I'm just curious.



                From: "wodeford" <wodeford@...>
                May I ask why you are so heart set on beading?

                I have 0 evidence of beadwork as garment trim in any of my textile
                books for our period in Japan. (Note, I do not say they never did it.
                I cannot prove they never did it. On the other hand I cannot prove
                they did.) I did go looking and found a website while googling
                "Japanese beadwork" that says certain types of bead embroidery got
                popular during the Meiji period (19th century).
              • wodeford
                ... Tsk tsk. You, my dear lady, should check out a collegium or university type event in your area. I ve had the opportunity to try my hand at wood carving
                Message 7 of 14 , Apr 7, 2006
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                  --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Melissa Russell" <virusq@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I wanted to incorporate something I enjoy into the SCA and give
                  > myself a project that I could research and learn from instead of
                  > just spending a bunch of money on a crafting materials that would
                  > never leave a box.

                  Tsk tsk. You, my dear lady, should check out a collegium or university
                  type event in your area. I've had the opportunity to try my hand at
                  wood carving (liked it a lot, explains the sensu experiments, doesn't
                  it?), terra cotta sculpture (liked it a lot), metalwork (so so),
                  lampwork bead making (hated it), fingerloop braiding.... First hit
                  might even be free or only include a modest materials fee. You might
                  find something you like.

                  Certain types of bead work ARE appropriate to certain cultures.
                  (Byzantium and Elizabethan England are two I can think of.)
                  Unfortunately Japan isn't one of them.

                  > I'd love to do embroidery or painting, but I don't have the patience
                  > for either.
                  Beading would make me psychotic. ;->

                  > I've seen prayer beads, crude strands of rock for necklaces and
                  > netsuke. I was just amazed that such an artistic culture (who seem
                  > to put a lot of spiritual value on certain stones and elements)
                  > wouldn't show beads more prominantly and assumed that I was just
                  > missing some essential step in my research.
                  Many of those spiritual and intellectual values are rooted in China.
                  Say that an ancient Chinese Buddhist text makes its way to Japan and
                  says The Shiny Happy Rock of Foo cures dandruff and brings harmony.
                  Now, they don't have Shiny Happy Rocks of Foo in Japan because they
                  only come from Foo which is practically in Tibet and nobody in Japan
                  has ever seen one, but that doesn't mean that Japanese Buddhists
                  aren't going to revere the properties of the Shiny Happy Rock of Foo
                  if they ever happen to stub a toe on something that suddenly gives
                  them a good hair day. And when the Emperor closes the country and
                  stuff stops coming in from China, your chances of ever getting your
                  hands on a Shiny Happy are pretty darn slim. Yes, I'm being facetious,
                  but this explains why you can find tigers in the Japanese Zodiac when
                  they are not an indigenous species to that part of Asia.

                  > I just don't understand how they would have gold-leafed their
                  > clothes but not have sewn in something shiney.
                  They had other ways of doing shiny. BTW, that gold leaf technique is
                  called surihaku, and it started as a way to fake a very hard-to-get
                  Chinese brocade known as kinran that uses gold thread. And gold leaf
                  does flake off (though it doesn't scratch up the floor or rip up the
                  mats) but the whole falling-cherry-blossom-as-metaphor-for-the
                  impermanence-of-existence makes it that much more beautiful and highly
                  prized.)

                  > But what about hats, hairpins or lanyards? How about pearls? They
                  were
                  > popular in China and India.

                  http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/wayou/6.htm shows a Heian court lady
                  dressed up for the most formal occasion and she has a gold comb in her
                  hair with some danglies. That's about the only time I've seen one.
                  Mostly, court or warrior-class women in period wore their hair very
                  simply, long and straight, perhaps tied in a loose ponytail with - get
                  this - plain white paper. (Simple, subtle, elegant, does not detract
                  from the exquisite display of one's silks -or beautiful hair.) This
                  lady is dressed for her wedding - no deely-bobs in sight:
                  http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/wayou/12.htm

                  I think the hats Solveig-hime mentioned might be for men. The court
                  class wore a variety of hats, often denoting rank and/or formality of
                  occasion. (Solveig-hime? Any more clues on this?)

                  I also belong to a board called Immortal Geisha. I took the liberty of
                  posting a request to see if anyone knew of bead embellishment on
                  modern kimono or obi, and we got a rather interesting example, which
                  is dated "Showa" (1926-1989). Here's the link:
                  http://www.immortalgeisha.com/ig_bb/viewtopic.php?t=3558&highlight=

                  Here's a recent discussion on wearing jewelry with traditional kimono.
                  I include it because you may find it interesting.
                  http://www.immortalgeisha.com/ig_bb/viewtopic.php?t=3102&highlight=jewelry

                  Sorry not to have better news for you. Something may yet turn up, but
                  my gut feeling is that it's rather unlikely.

                  Saionji no Hanae,
                  West Kingdom
                • Solveig Throndardottir
                  Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... As I mentioned before, there were some ornamented hats inspired by Chinese models if you go back far enough. As for
                  Message 8 of 14 , Apr 8, 2006
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                    Noble Cousin!

                    Greetings from Solveig!
                    > But what about hats, hairpins or lanyards? How about pearls? They
                    > were
                    > popular in China and India.
                    As I mentioned before, there were some ornamented hats inspired by
                    Chinese models if you go back far enough. As for hat pins, no you
                    should not expect that. Hats were secured with cords. I do not know
                    about gold leaf applied to clothing, but there was highly decorated
                    brocade.

                    Your Humble Servant
                    Solveig Throndardottir
                    Amateur Scholar

                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                    | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                    | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                    | the trash by my email filters. |
                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Solveig Throndardottir
                    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Well, for example, there is the coronation hat of the emperor depicted in one on the Monumenta Nipponica texts on
                    Message 9 of 14 , Apr 8, 2006
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                      Noble Cousin!

                      Greetings from Solveig!

                      > I think the hats Solveig-hime mentioned might be for men. The court
                      > class wore a variety of hats, often denoting rank and/or formality of
                      > occasion. (Solveig-hime? Any more clues on this?)

                      Well, for example, there is the coronation hat of the emperor depicted
                      in one on the Monumenta Nipponica texts on Japanese enthronement
                      ritual. There is also a variety of other hats worn by court officials.
                      If you go back far enough, you may find some of these officials being
                      women. One woman served twice as emperor.

                      > Here's a recent discussion on wearing jewelry with traditional kimono.
                      > I include it because you may find it interesting.
                      > http://www.immortalgeisha.com/ig_bb/viewtopic.php?
                      > t=3102&highlight=jewelry

                      The tea ceremony and, if I recall correctly, the incense ceremony as
                      well pretty much requires you to leave all jewelry at home.

                      Your Humble Servant
                      Solveig Throndardottir
                      Amateur Scholar

                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                      | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                      | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                      | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                      | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                      | the trash by my email filters. |
                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


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                    • Solveig Throndardottir
                      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! You can take a look at a picture of a benkan from page 250 of The Emergence of Japanese Kingship by Joan R. Piggott.
                      Message 10 of 14 , Apr 8, 2006
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                        Noble Cousin!

                        Greetings from Solveig! You can take a look at a picture of a "benkan"
                        from page 250 of The Emergence of Japanese Kingship by Joan R. Piggott.
                        Stanford University Press, 1997.

                        http://137.143.148.234/japan/benkan.pdf

                        Your Humble Servant
                        Solveig Throndardottir
                        Amateur Scholar

                        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                        | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                        | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                        | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                        | the trash by my email filters. |
                        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Solveig Throndardottir
                        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! You may have an easier time viewing: http://137.143.148.234/japan/benkan.jpg Your Humble Servant Solveig Throndardottir
                        Message 11 of 14 , Apr 8, 2006
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                          Noble Cousin!

                          Greetings from Solveig! You may have an easier time viewing:

                          http://137.143.148.234/japan/benkan.jpg

                          Your Humble Servant
                          Solveig Throndardottir
                          Amateur Scholar

                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                          | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                          | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                          | the trash by my email filters. |
                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


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