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  • Ghost Dog
    Greetings, I d like to design my own Mon. Can anyone give me some help as far as rules to get it passed in the society to make it mine? Thanks! Dominic In
    Message 1 of 26 , Oct 24, 2000
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      Greetings,

      I'd like to design my own Mon. Can anyone give me some help as far as rules
      to get it passed in the society to make it mine?

      Thanks!

      Dominic

      '"In assessing the enemy's castle there is a saying that goes, "Smoke and
      mist are like looking at a spring mountain. After the rain is like viewing a
      clear day." There is weakness in perfect clarity.'
    • Barbara Nostrand
      Noble Cousin! Unfortunately, the College of Arms does not really register kamon (also called mon or monsho) although it will tell you that it does. What it
      Message 2 of 26 , Oct 25, 2000
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        Noble Cousin!

        Unfortunately, the College of Arms does not really register kamon
        (also called mon or monsho) although it will tell you that it does.
        What it does do is register TSCA armoury for you and lets you make
        the outline round.

        1. Not all kamon had round outline, but they pretty much fit nicely
        within a square.

        2. All kamon pretty much had one design or theme which might be
        arranged in replicated groups. e.g., a Chinese coin, a group
        of six Chinese coins arranged in two rows of three, &c.

        3. Artifacts from period suggest that kamon could have up to three
        tinctures when displayed. The CoA insists that kamon were strictly
        monochromatic light on dark. This notion comes from monochromatic
        registries and post period kimono catalogoues. Actual battle flags,
        architectural bosses, &c. were often polychromatic, but still
        with a relatively limitted number of tinctures. (Basically three)

        4. The College of Arms WILL and quite unfortunately insist upon its
        rules of colour contrast. You can only put white and yellow on
        other colours and vice-versa. There is a period practice
        exemption which requires LOTS of documentation and which the
        CoA will not apply to Japanese armoury.

        5. The biggest problem for you is that the thingies that you put
        on your arms MUST be described using extant ENGLISH heraldic
        terms. This means that you can not register arms including
        the tomoe (a very familiar charge which the CoA specifically
        rejected.)

        Given all of that. Just how sneaky are you willing to be. You could
        probably do better at sneaking one by the CoA if you register a
        German name and describe and draw the thing in a German way and then
        change your name. That would cost you an extra registration fee, but
        might open up some possibilities. For example, it would open up
        stuff like red on black which the CoA will not allow you if you
        register the thing under a Japanese name.

        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar
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      • Ron Martino
        ... Or you could just ignore the College of Arms. What are they going to do? Strip you of any items with unregistered arms? Which raises the question - was the
        Message 3 of 26 , Oct 25, 2000
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          > Given all of that. Just how sneaky are you willing to be. You could
          > probably do better at sneaking one by the CoA if you register a
          > German name and describe and draw the thing in a German way and then
          > change your name. That would cost you an extra registration fee, but
          > might open up some possibilities. For example, it would open up
          > stuff like red on black which the CoA will not allow you if you
          > register the thing under a Japanese name.
          >
          > Your Humble Servant
          > Solveig Throndardottir
          > Amateur Scholar

          Or you could just ignore the College of Arms. What are they going to
          do? Strip you of any items with unregistered arms?

          Which raises the question - was the use of identifying symbols (mon,
          etc.) controlled in any way in Japan during our period of interest?

          Yumitori (who has a registered European name and device he does not
          use, and uses a name and device that isn't registered.)
          --

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        • Barbara Nostrand
          Noble Cousins! Control is an interesting issue. Arms were not exactly controlled in Europe either. Mostly they were registered and occasionally there were
          Message 4 of 26 , Oct 25, 2000
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            Noble Cousins!

            Control is an interesting issue. Arms were not exactly controlled
            in Europe either. Mostly they were registered and occasionally there
            were court cases when someone was unhappy that someone else was
            using arms just like theirs. So things were not that controlled
            even in England. The Japanese did maintain registries of kamon
            and to some extent kamon were like nanori and real family considered
            to be a perogative of the kuge and the buke. Regardless, most
            people did not have them at the time of the Meiji Restoration in
            1868 and rushed out to get them when the new imperial government
            gave everyone permission to have them.

            SCA History. A long long time ago, back in AS single digits, people
            got the idea that it would be neat if everyone had a unique name and
            unique arms. Neither of these practices are particularly "period".
            The heralds know this, occasionally talk about it,
            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar
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          • elmar schmeisser
            ... going to ... wish you could - it some kingdoms it has become law that you must kowtow to the COA before getting any formal award (e.g. AoA). - seamus
            Message 5 of 26 , Oct 26, 2000
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              --- In sca-jml@egroups.com, Ron Martino <yumitori@m...> wrote:
              ...
              > Or you could just ignore the College of Arms. What are they
              going to
              > do? Strip you of any items with unregistered arms?

              wish you could - it some kingdoms it has become law that you must
              kowtow to the COA before getting any formal award (e.g. AoA).

              - seamus (elmar)
            • Barbara Nostrand
              Noble Cousins! ... That is my recollection as well, but when I cited it a month or so ago, someone challenged it. It is agreed that there are kingdoms where
              Message 6 of 26 , Oct 26, 2000
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                Noble Cousins!

                >wish you could - it some kingdoms it has become law that you must
                >kowtow to the COA before getting any formal award (e.g. AoA).

                That is my recollection as well, but when I cited it a month or so
                ago, someone challenged it. It is agreed that there are kingdoms
                where you can not get an award scroll until you have been registered
                by the CoA. Everyone in the discussion agreed to that. Do you know
                which kingdoms require registration for the CoA itself?

                The CoA is a funny beast. Its members routinely disavow having
                any authority in the Society. I suppose this makes them feel
                less threatening to other folks in the society and lets them run
                the CoA for their own personal enjoyment. (They can have protracted
                arguments about whether the CoA should be a quasi-modern service
                organization or whether it should be a recreation of a period college
                of arms.) However, the CoA does have real authority at times.
                Structurally, any group must get their approval before it can achieve
                official and depending on where they live individual members can miss
                out on Society beneifts if they have not kow-towed to the CoA.

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar
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              • Caitriona@juno.com
                wish you could - it some kingdoms it has become law that you must kowtow to the COA before getting any formal award (e.g. AoA). ===========================
                Message 7 of 26 , Oct 26, 2000
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                  wish you could - it some kingdoms it has become law that you must
                  kowtow to the COA before getting any formal award (e.g. AoA).
                  ===========================
                  What Kingdom would that be.......Not Meridies or Trimaris or Atlantia or
                  Middle that I know of....

                  Caitriona of Dragonshade

                  ==============
                  A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, conn a
                  ship, design a building, write a
                  sonnet, balance an account, build a wall, comfort the dying, give orders,
                  take orders, set a bone, cooperate,
                  act alone, analyze a problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a
                  tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
                  Specialization is for insects - Lazarus Long
                • elmar schmeisser
                  ... Atlantia or ... Here my memory is old, but last I was in Trimaris (some many years ago), that was kindgom law, and ditto for Middle and I think it s also
                  Message 8 of 26 , Oct 30, 2000
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                    --- In sca-jml@egroups.com, Caitriona@j... wrote:
                    > wish you could - it some kingdoms it has become law that you must
                    > kowtow to the COA before getting any formal award (e.g. AoA).
                    > ===========================
                    > What Kingdom would that be.......Not Meridies or Trimaris or
                    Atlantia or
                    > Middle that I know of....

                    Here my memory is old, but last I was in Trimaris (some many years
                    ago), that was kindgom law, and ditto for Middle and I think it's
                    also true in Ansteorra. Solveig may be correct in that you can
                    get "awarded" an AoA (i.e. the Crown may annouce it), but as I recall
                    the wording of the scroll, it states that you must "consult with us
                    and our heralds ...suitable arms" or some such. IOW - you don't
                    actually _get_ the AoA, nor is it "recorded", until you've got
                    accepted armory.

                    - seamus
                  • Grim Shieldsson
                    ... Atenveldt the scrolls have the same wording. I know several people who have yet to consult with the Crown, or the heralds for suitable arms. They are
                    Message 9 of 26 , Oct 30, 2000
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                      --- elmar schmeisser <etschmeisser@...> wrote:
                      > --- In sca-jml@egroups.com, Caitriona@j... wrote:
                      > the wording of the scroll, it states that you must "consult with us
                      > and our heralds ...suitable arms" or some such. IOW - you don't
                      > actually _get_ the AoA, nor is it "recorded", until you've got
                      > accepted armory.

                      Atenveldt the scrolls have the same wording. I know several people who
                      have yet to consult with the Crown, or the heralds for suitable arms.
                      They are listed in the OP, iirc.



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                    • Kass McGann
                      ... recall ... I do not pretend to know what happens in other Kingdoms, but in the East, one does not need to have had a device/arms approved before being
                      Message 10 of 26 , Oct 30, 2000
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                        > Here my memory is old, but last I was in Trimaris (some many years
                        > ago), that was kindgom law, and ditto for Middle and I think it's
                        > also true in Ansteorra. Solveig may be correct in that you can
                        > get "awarded" an AoA (i.e. the Crown may annouce it), but as I
                        recall
                        > the wording of the scroll, it states that you must "consult with us
                        > and our heralds ...suitable arms" or some such. IOW - you don't
                        > actually _get_ the AoA, nor is it "recorded", until you've got
                        > accepted armory.
                        >
                        > - seamus

                        I do not pretend to know what happens in other Kingdoms, but in the
                        East, one does not need to have had a device/arms approved before
                        being awarded an AoA. One never needs to have arms or a name
                        approved, in fact. Furthermore, on the OP web page, people who have
                        registered names with the College of Heralds have a mark next to
                        their names, indicating that NOT having an approved name is, in fact,
                        the norm.

                        My name nor my mon have been approved, and I assure you that my
                        awards are on the East Kingdom Order of Precedence.

                        Your servant,
                        Fujiwara no Aoi-hime, CoM, KOE, AoA
                      • Gaylin
                        Although he most likely can easily speak for himself, my dear husband has both a passed mon and name. He did not have either of these at the time he got his
                        Message 11 of 26 , Oct 31, 2000
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                          Although he most likely can easily speak for himself, my
                          dear husband has both a passed mon and name. He did not
                          have either of these at the time he got his AoA which was
                          approximately 12 years ago. We both live and play in
                          the Midrealm.

                          I'll be dating myself here, but at the time I first became
                          involved in the SCA, people still spoke to a herald at SCA
                          level, above Kingdom heralds, when they needed to try to
                          pass Japanese devices. I believe this person was often
                          referred to as "Mon Sho" herald, though I'm most certainly
                          butchering the name.

                          iasmin
                          gwalli@... or iasmin@...
                        • Joshua Badgley
                          I am looking for a copy of the Rodriguez s famous book on Japanese grammar, but can t seem to find one. I have put in an ILL (Inter-library loan) request, but
                          Message 12 of 26 , Oct 31, 2000
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                            I am looking for a copy of the Rodriguez's famous book on Japanese
                            grammar, but can't seem to find one. I have put in an ILL (Inter-library
                            loan) request, but after talking to them, it looks like it might be handy
                            to see what kind of information I can gather her as to what copies and
                            publications are available. I know that Hiraizumi-dono has one copy, and
                            wondered if he or others might be able to give me a helping hand on
                            tracking down this elusive source. Any help would be appreciated.

                            -Godric Logan/Ii ????
                          • Barbara Nostrand
                            Noble Cousins! I have met the former mon-sho herald. He was badgered out of doing Japanese and when I met him was doing undistinguished generic SCA instead.
                            Message 13 of 26 , Oct 31, 2000
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                              Noble Cousins!

                              I have met the former mon-sho herald. He was badgered out
                              of doing Japanese and when I met him was doing undistinguished
                              "generic SCA" instead. I do not believe that the Society was
                              served by this. Nor do a number of people in his kingdom who
                              he said had been pleading with him to go back to doing
                              Japanese. Regardless, the days of having significant special
                              treatment for Japanese heraldry in the the College of Arms
                              are no more. Further, the current draft for the Organizational
                              Handbook revision appears to prohibit non-European theme events.
                              This could affect a lot more than just Japanese events if people
                              were to take it seriously. Other provisions of Corpora have
                              been ignored into oblivion in the past, but this wording change
                              will almost certainly cause hard feeling. It is also in my
                              opinion an unnecessary change even in terms of preserving a
                              Western focus for the Society. The weight of Society tradition
                              biases the Society toward "generic medieval" events.

                              Your Humble Servant
                              Solveig Throndardottir
                              Amateur Scholar

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                            • Barbara Nostrand
                              Lord Godric. Baron Edward ordered the grammar on-line from Kinokuniya. There may be a very limited number of copies in North America. Your Humble Servant
                              Message 14 of 26 , Oct 31, 2000
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                                Lord Godric.

                                Baron Edward ordered the grammar on-line from Kinokuniya. There may be
                                a very limited number of copies in North America.

                                Your Humble Servant
                                Solveig Throndardottir
                                Amateur Scholar
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                              • mercy67@aol.com
                                Message 15 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
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                                  <<Further, the current draft for the Organizational
                                  Handbook revision appears to prohibit non-European theme events. This could
                                  affect a lot more than just Japanese events if people were to take it
                                  seriously.>>

                                  As a Senschal in Caid (with poor spelling) I think your opprative comment in
                                  this whole thing is "if people were to take this seriously." Caid has, to my
                                  recollection (which isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination) had two
                                  japanese tourneys (one in my Barony that I run and one in Hawaii) and I
                                  haven't seen anyone, especially my Kingdom supervisior, say one word to me
                                  about having to worry about not doing those sorts of events.

                                  I've only been in the SCA for a year and a half so far, but I've noticed the
                                  "selective" use of rules for a number of things within our Knowne World.
                                  Basically, I've come to the conclusion of trying things out and if there is a
                                  problem, someone higher up will let one know.

                                  Personally, once I make up my darn mind on a name and a mon, I will try it.
                                  If it doesn't pass, it doesn't pass. Try again with something else. Why
                                  worry about things one can't controll anyhow? And if you find out you need
                                  an AoA before you can put your name in, then you at least use the name until
                                  the AoA passes and then, make it official. I dunno, maybe I'm over
                                  simplifying the situation, so I apologize if I've totally missed the point of
                                  all this.

                                  On a side note, I wish there was someone who not only did Japanese names in
                                  the CoH but also did Chinese and other asian (non-european names). I found
                                  it amazing when I came into the SCA the lack of chinese (especially) persona.
                                  But I suppose most people don't count the silk or porcelaine trade routes as
                                  a strong enough connection to the european world. Ah well. I'm still new,
                                  so I'm probably just missing something (yet again).

                                  --Mercy
                                • Barbara Nostrand
                                  Noble Cousin! ... Under the current Organizational Handbook there is no problem with non-European theme events. What the draft copy does is insert European
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
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                                    Noble Cousin!


                                    >As a Senschal in Caid (with poor spelling) I think your opprative comment in
                                    >this whole thing is "if people were to take this seriously." Caid has, to my
                                    >recollection (which isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination) had two
                                    >japanese tourneys (one in my Barony that I run and one in Hawaii) and I
                                    >haven't seen anyone, especially my Kingdom supervisior, say one word to me
                                    >about having to worry about not doing those sorts of events.

                                    Under the current Organizational Handbook there is no problem with
                                    non-European theme events. What the draft copy does is insert "European"
                                    into the definition of the purpose of events. Whether and to what
                                    extent this one word insertion will be paid attention to will vary
                                    quite a bit. I know people who will jump on it, and attempt to use it
                                    to limit the sort of events held in the Society.

                                    Your Humble Servant
                                    Solveig Throndardottir
                                    Amateur Scholar
                                    --
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                                  • M&A
                                    Why are many people in the SCA so against Non European persona? The letters are not ESAC. I would think the diversity and knowledge from all of the other
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
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                                      Why are many people in the SCA so against Non European persona? The letters
                                      are not ESAC. I would think the diversity and knowledge from all of the
                                      other people interested in this aspect would be welcome. I know I welcome
                                      it. Its fun!

                                      Mori


                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: "Barbara Nostrand" <nostrand@...>
                                      To: <sca-jml@egroups.com>
                                      Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 8:52 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Mon and law and names oh my


                                      > Noble Cousin!
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > >As a Senschal in Caid (with poor spelling) I think your opprative comment
                                      in
                                      > >this whole thing is "if people were to take this seriously." Caid has,
                                      to my
                                      > >recollection (which isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination) had
                                      two
                                      > >japanese tourneys (one in my Barony that I run and one in Hawaii) and I
                                      > >haven't seen anyone, especially my Kingdom supervisior, say one word to
                                      me
                                      > >about having to worry about not doing those sorts of events.
                                      >
                                      > Under the current Organizational Handbook there is no problem with
                                      > non-European theme events. What the draft copy does is insert "European"
                                      > into the definition of the purpose of events. Whether and to what
                                      > extent this one word insertion will be paid attention to will vary
                                      > quite a bit. I know people who will jump on it, and attempt to use it
                                      > to limit the sort of events held in the Society.
                                      >
                                      > Your Humble Servant
                                      > Solveig Throndardottir
                                      > Amateur Scholar
                                      > --
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                                    • Joshua Badgley
                                      ... I think it has to do with various people s visions of the SCA s purpose. For some, they see it as the study of Western European history, from 600 AD to
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
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                                        On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, M&A wrote:

                                        > Why are many people in the SCA so against Non European persona? The letters
                                        > are not ESAC. I would think the diversity and knowledge from all of the
                                        > other people interested in this aspect would be welcome. I know I welcome
                                        > it. Its fun!
                                        >
                                        I think it has to do with various people's visions of the SCA's
                                        purpose. For some, they see it as the study of Western European history,
                                        from 600 AD to 1600 AD, and anything outside of that is anachronistic and
                                        they would rather not have it as it ruins the mood. For these people, I
                                        think that the Society really is too broad and too much fantasy; they
                                        would almost be happier somewhere that narrowed their focus even more and
                                        did a better job at encouraging truly period stuff. In fact, if you want
                                        to truly do any kind of representation of a period encampment, feast, or
                                        what have you then you will have to narrow it down to a specific time, at
                                        least.

                                        For me, I finally came to the realization that the Society is more
                                        recreation than re-creation many times. It is not a specific
                                        re-creationist club, but a general club of amateur (and occassionally
                                        professional) historians who like to express a wide variety of their
                                        studies. In that light, I see nothing wrong with Japanese personae, and
                                        encourage them so long as a person is willing to do some research into the
                                        area. In fact, it is much more probable, to my mind, that a 14th century
                                        Japanese would sit down to eat or converse with a 14th century Italian
                                        than a 14th Century Italian would sit down with a 9th or even 13th century
                                        Italian.

                                        Still, because we are introducing something that is obviously
                                        non-European, I also wish to encourage those who take up a Japanese
                                        persona to attempt to do it better than most people do European. Since we
                                        are bending the rules, as it were, let's try to do it right, to the best
                                        of our ability.

                                        At the same time, the mission of the Society is geared towards Western
                                        European society. I guess if everyone else gave up their anachronisms and
                                        non-period items I would throw down my hitatare--at least in this
                                        group. I don't see that happening to the SCA anytime soon, however.

                                        -Godric Logan/Ii ????
                                      • elmar schmeisser
                                        ... Western ... Mission? Mission?? what mission ? As I recall from my first intro in AS3 (gods - so long ago? no wonder my bones hurt) - the idea was to
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
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                                          --- In sca-jml@egroups.com, Joshua Badgley <fsjlb4@a...> wrote:
                                          ...
                                          > At the same time, the mission of the Society is geared towards
                                          Western
                                          > European society...

                                          Mission? Mission?? what "mission"? As I recall from my first intro
                                          in AS3 (gods - so long ago? no wonder my bones hurt) - the idea was
                                          to celebrate the ideals of sword bearing societies, and was "kinda"
                                          modeled after an idealized Camelot crossed with Faierie. As was
                                          written elsewhere, an armed society is a polite society - and the SCA
                                          was a rebellion against the depersonalization and its consequent loss
                                          of grace and elegance in the mundane world. The other old geezers
                                          among us can correct me, but I don't recall any "mission"...

                                          - seamus
                                        • Joshua Badgley
                                          ... Regardless of whether there was anything to begin with the Society, or at least parts of it, seem to claim that we are a mediaeval re-creation society
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
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                                            On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, elmar schmeisser wrote:

                                            > --- In sca-jml@egroups.com, Joshua Badgley <fsjlb4@a...> wrote:
                                            > ...
                                            > > At the same time, the mission of the Society is geared towards
                                            > Western
                                            > > European society...
                                            >
                                            > Mission? Mission?? what "mission"? As I recall from my first intro
                                            > in AS3 (gods - so long ago? no wonder my bones hurt) - the idea was
                                            > to celebrate the ideals of sword bearing societies, and was "kinda"
                                            > modeled after an idealized Camelot crossed with Faierie. As was
                                            > written elsewhere, an armed society is a polite society - and the SCA
                                            > was a rebellion against the depersonalization and its consequent loss
                                            > of grace and elegance in the mundane world. The other old geezers
                                            > among us can correct me, but I don't recall any "mission"...
                                            >
                                            Regardless of whether there was anything to begin with the Society, or at
                                            least parts of it, seem to claim that we are a mediaeval re-creation
                                            society focused on Western Europe before the 1600s. That is what it is
                                            being represented as. For instance, in "Life in the Current Middle
                                            Ages" <http://www.sca.org/sca-intro.html> it says:

                                            "The avowed purpose of the SCA is the study and recreation of the European
                                            Middle Ages, its crafts, sciences, arts, traditions, literature,
                                            etc. The SCA "period" is defined to be Western civilization before 1600
                                            AD, concentrating on the Western European High Middle Ages."

                                            People are advertising this to outsiders as a society dedicated to the
                                            study and recreation of the European Middle Ages and so I find it not at
                                            all surprising that, new members especially, expect to find European
                                            history rather than Asian.

                                            I agree, however, that the current society, while incorporating elements
                                            of re-creation and research, is still based more on this idea of the
                                            'Dream'. If you want to do hard core research and outfit yourself for an
                                            army in Mediaeval Germany with a whole army of landsknecht at your side,
                                            there are other organizations that are more geared towards that
                                            pursuit. If you want to be a part of an organization of friendly,
                                            similarly interested people who like to beat on you with sticks... well,
                                            there are some other organizations out there, but I prefer the Society,
                                            myself.

                                            I really don't mean to offend anyone, but I realize, too that this can
                                            raise many different feelings in people. While I think that discussing
                                            our place as Japanese personae or students of Japanese history in the
                                            Society is relevant, a large discussion on what the Society is or isn't
                                            might be better suited to be eventually taken off the list. I'll try to
                                            shut up now.


                                            -Godric Logan/Ii <Daredare>
                                          • Kass McGann
                                            ... can ... discussing ... the ... isn t ... try to ... Not necessary, Godric. You and Seamus both make good points. When the SCA started, it was a theme
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
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                                              > I really don't mean to offend anyone, but I realize, too that this
                                              can
                                              > raise many different feelings in people. While I think that
                                              discussing
                                              > our place as Japanese personae or students of Japanese history in
                                              the
                                              > Society is relevant, a large discussion on what the Society is or
                                              isn't
                                              > might be better suited to be eventually taken off the list. I'll
                                              try to
                                              > shut up now.

                                              Not necessary, Godric. You and Seamus both make good points. When
                                              the SCA started, it was a theme party. Today, it is something a bit
                                              different from what began back in the 60s in Berkeley. Some people
                                              in our Society are making high-level replicas and doing some stunning
                                              experimental archeology. Others are wearing sweatpants and T-shirt
                                              under their plastic armour.

                                              My general opinion on non-Western persona is if they tell me I can't
                                              be one, I won't. I do 16th century Irish too. I could live without
                                              Lady Fujiwara. But if they come down with that ruling, then they
                                              have to outlaw pre-600 personae and post-1600 personae, and all those
                                              made-up personae we see running around when the weather gets warm
                                              enough to wear leather and fur bikinis. <smirk>

                                              I do re-enactment with other "more serious" groups as well. I do
                                              15th century Swiss Burgundian Wars, Battle of Hastings (1066), ECW,
                                              Swedes from the Thirty Years War, among others. I like the SCA
                                              because of the breadth of what we do. Court wouldn't be so
                                              interesting if there weren't so many people there. Court in my other
                                              groups is small and you can't really lose yourself in the idea that
                                              this guy is King because you just plain know him too well!

                                              I like what we do. I would love for everyone to have authentic
                                              persona. But I don't care where we're all from. As Godric said, it
                                              is much more likely for a 14th century Japanese persona to talk to a
                                              14th century Italian than a 14th century Italian to talk to a 13th
                                              century Italian!

                                              Kass
                                              aka Fujiwara no Aoi-hime
                                            • Barbara Nostrand
                                              Noble Cousin! ... Although folks who are against non-European persona may sometimes dress their position up with historical argument, the root reason is
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
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                                                Noble Cousin!

                                                >Why are many people in the SCA so against Non European persona? The letters
                                                >are not ESAC. I would think the diversity and knowledge from all of the
                                                >other people interested in this aspect would be welcome. I know I welcome
                                                >it. Its fun!

                                                Although folks who are against non-European persona may sometimes dress
                                                their position up with historical argument, the root reason is primarily
                                                emotional. It has to do with people's feelings about what the middle ages
                                                and renaisance looked like. Most people see popular movies and undergo
                                                grammar school history courses before they begin studying our period of
                                                interest. Consequently, some folks want rustic saxon yomen slugging it
                                                out with Normans, or knights in shining armour from the tournament
                                                period or want saga period Vikings as seen in movies like "The Vikings".
                                                This is the sort of thing that is going on at the emotional level.
                                                Documenting contact or just about anything else is not likely to change
                                                people's feelings.

                                                My opinion is that Society definitions intended to support shared
                                                fantasy are inherently much more limiting than definitions based
                                                upon history.

                                                Your Humble Servant
                                                Solveig Throndardottir
                                                Amateur Scholar
                                                --
                                                +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                                | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM |
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                                              • Barbara Nostrand
                                                Baron Seamus! I first learned about the Society from a To Tell The Truth program in AS single digits and actually made it into the Society in AS XI. There sure
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
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                                                  Baron Seamus!

                                                  I first learned about the Society from a To Tell The Truth program in AS
                                                  single digits and actually made it into the Society in AS XI. There sure
                                                  wasn't any "mission" of the Society in AS XI. For that matter, there was
                                                  an Imperium and Imperial Electors not some silly BoD. Further, people
                                                  were seriously considering moving out into the woods and living medieval
                                                  (some actually tried to do this and are still more or less in the woods).
                                                  A hot topic of discussion back then was "were are the serfs?"

                                                  Your Humble Servant
                                                  Solveig Throndardottir
                                                  Amateur Scholar

                                                  Not quite as moldy in the Society as Baron Seamus but still seriously
                                                  crusty.
                                                  --
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                                                  | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM |
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                                                • elmar schmeisser
                                                  ... can t ... without ... Had to go there too - I have a western persona (1560 s Londonized Scot) as well as the same year Japanese. The various awards had
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Nov 2, 2000
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                                                    --- In sca-jml@egroups.com, "Kass McGann" <historian@r...> wrote:
                                                    ...
                                                    > My general opinion on non-Western persona is if they tell me I
                                                    can't
                                                    > be one, I won't. I do 16th century Irish too. I could live
                                                    without
                                                    > Lady Fujiwara

                                                    Had to go there too - I have a western persona (1560's Londonized
                                                    Scot) as well as the same year Japanese. The various "awards" had to
                                                    go to the Scot (Seamus), but with my household, I was Jutte.

                                                    - elmar
                                                  • Kass McGann
                                                    ... to ... I wouldn t say I *had* to develop a Western persona, Elmar. After all, I have studied all the extant Irish textiles and I just couldn t see not
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Nov 2, 2000
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                                                      > Had to go there too - I have a western persona (1560's Londonized
                                                      > Scot) as well as the same year Japanese. The various "awards" had
                                                      to
                                                      > go to the Scot (Seamus), but with my household, I was Jutte.

                                                      I wouldn't say I *had* to develop a Western persona, Elmar. After
                                                      all, I have studied all the extant Irish textiles and I just couldn't
                                                      see not using that info in the SCA.

                                                      To date, all of my awards were awarded to Fujiwara no Aoi. Only my
                                                      Maunche was awarded to Caisin nic Annaidh, but I was told quite
                                                      emphatically before the populace at Court that both Lady Fujiwara and
                                                      Lady Caisin were receiving the accolade.

                                                      And the East isn't usually known for being liberal-thinking... ;)

                                                      My Laurel, Ohashi-katsutoshi, was the first Japanese persona to be
                                                      given Laurels in the East Kingdom. He has no Western persona, though
                                                      he "dresses down" sometimes...

                                                      Kass
                                                      aka Fujiwara no Aoi-hime
                                                      and staying that way!
                                                    • Anthony J. Bryant
                                                      ... You might have better luck if you try the Japanese name, Nihongo daibunten. Since it s really something that s only available in Japanese that s the
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Nov 2, 2000
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                                                        Joshua Badgley wrote:

                                                        > I am looking for a copy of the Rodriguez's famous book on Japanese
                                                        > grammar, but can't seem to find one. I have put in an ILL (Inter-library
                                                        > loan) request, but after talking to them, it looks like it might be handy
                                                        > to see what kind of information I can gather her as to what copies and
                                                        > publications are available. I know that Hiraizumi-dono has one copy, and
                                                        > wondered if he or others might be able to give me a helping hand on
                                                        > tracking down this elusive source. Any help would be appreciated.
                                                        >

                                                        You might have better luck if you try the Japanese name, "Nihongo
                                                        daibunten." Since it's really something that's only available "in Japanese"
                                                        that's the title the publishers and libraries tend to use.


                                                        Effingham
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