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Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Japanese piracy

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  • Solveig Throndardottir
    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Are you sure that you aren t misrembering things or that your father isn t embellishing his war stories a tad? There
    Message 1 of 27 , Mar 9, 2006
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      Noble Cousin!

      Greetings from Solveig!

      > And as for the China invasion, I know about it because my father was
      > one of the soldiers sent into china by way of Vietnam. he lived,
      > others did not.

      Are you sure that you aren't misrembering things or that your father
      isn't embellishing his war stories a tad? There wasn't a whole lot of
      US ground activity North of the DMZ during the Vietnam War. And, China
      is a long way North of the DMZ. There was a lot of bombing of the
      North, incursions into Cambodia and Laos and stuff like that.

      Here is a link for a map of Laos:

      http://media.maps.com/magellan/Images/LAOS-W1.gif

      You will notice that it parallels Vietnam. There was an incursion of US
      forces into both Laos and Cambodia during the Vietnam War. The idea was
      to interdict the Ho Chi Minh Trail. What the incursions actually
      accomplished was the collapse of both the Laotian and Cambodian
      governments. You father may have been involved in a Laos incursion and
      may have even at some point stepped foot into China, but there was
      never a militarily significant US invasion force operating in China
      during the Vietnam War. I refer you to the size of Japanese Armies
      operating in China somewhat earlier. It is extremely difficult to hide
      an army of that size as it would of necessity be larger than the total
      US troop strength in Southeast Asia during the Vietnam War.

      Your Humble Servant
      Solveig Throndardottir
      Amateur Scholar

      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
      | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
      | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
      | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
      | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
      | the trash by my email filters. |
      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


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    • Rick Johnson
      ... Of course you are right. As Diogenes said, Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. But then, the SCA not only rememberes it
      Message 2 of 27 , Mar 10, 2006
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        >>Does the average American give a rat's ass about history? Unless it's sports... WW2 isn't that the war with the Kaiser?

        Of course you are right. As Diogenes said, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

        But then, the SCA not only rememberes it fondly, we re-write it to our own desires. The club is not history as it was but as it should have been. As we are tryingto do today, remember the history of Japanese piracythen re-write it into something usable as a persona.
        It doesn't eman we forget, it simply means we have fun.




        Rick Johnson, PO Box 40451, Tucson, Az. 85717
        http://www.geocities.com/DesertHenge
        http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_ERB
        http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_RLJ


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      • Rick Johnson
        How true. For a truely maritime nation, the info on medieval Japanese ships is woefully inadequate. ... there. For a while I was into a naval miniatures gaming
        Message 3 of 27 , Mar 10, 2006
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          How true.
          For a truely maritime nation, the info on medieval Japanese ships is woefully inadequate.



          >>There are pretty good histories of the Japanese Imperial Navy out
          there. For a while I was into a naval miniatures gaming system and
          bought a few of them. You can get plans for steam powered junks and
          similar things. Finding earlier stuff is a bit more difficult. You
          don't even get a lot at the National museum at Ueno. In contrast, the
          National Museum in Seoul has a scale model of the turtle.



          Rick Johnson, PO Box 40451, Tucson, Az. 85717
          http://www.geocities.com/DesertHenge
          http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_ERB
          http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_RLJ


          Please note: message attached




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        • Rick Johnson
          ... 1950 s. There was occasional sabre rattling about using nuclear weapons various places in East Asia, but that came to nothing. The pueblo was captured by
          Message 4 of 27 , Mar 10, 2006
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            >>As for an invasion of China. Are you talking about the capture of the Pueblo? Mac Arthur's threatened invasion of China was in the early
            1950's. There was occasional sabre rattling about using nuclear weapons various places in East Asia, but that came to nothing.

            The pueblo was captured by the N. Korea while it was spying on them. We still don't know if it was in international or Korean waters. Considering thehistory of bith the US and Korea, either could be valid.

            I'm refering to the actual military invasion of China from Vietnam in the early 1960's. The US told families that their husbands/fathers/brothers/sons were in Vietnam, which they were for as long as it took them to get through that nation and enter China.

            Body bags were shipped to Saigon and the tags changed from "KIA China" to "KIA Vietnam". I only know about it because of my father's involvement in that invasion which he said we got our asses whipped.

            But then, I was involved in a certain central American war that also never made the news because we lost there too and so was too embarassing to the prez. Also certain medical experiments I assisted with on unwilling American and Arabs. It happens all the time and is mostly kept secret for fear of embarassing the Prez and to encourage the people involved to keep doing them when they should be compared to J. mengele.


            Rick Johnson, PO Box 40451, Tucson, Az. 85717
            http://www.geocities.com/DesertHenge
            http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_ERB
            http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_RLJ


            Please note: message attached




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          • wodeford
            ... our own desires. The club is not history as it was but as it should have been. As we are tryingto do today, remember the history of Japanese piracythen
            Message 5 of 27 , Mar 10, 2006
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              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Johnson" <rikjohnson@...> wrote:
              > But then, the SCA not only rememberes it fondly, we re-write it to
              our own desires. The club is not history as it was but as it should
              have been. As we are tryingto do today, remember the history of
              Japanese piracythen re-write it into something usable as a persona.

              We do our ancestors a disservice when we randomly make things up about
              them.

              Saionji no Hanae,
              People For The Ethical Treatment of History
            • Solveig Throndardottir
              Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Wasn t the war with Kaiser Wilhelm called The Great War , The War to End War , and later on WW-I ?? Not to be
              Message 6 of 27 , Mar 10, 2006
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                Noble Cousin!

                Greetings from Solveig!
                > Does the average American give a rat's ass about history? Unless it's
                > sports... WW2 isn't that the war with the Kaiser?
                Wasn't the war with Kaiser Wilhelm called "The Great War", "The War to
                End War", and later on WW-I ?? Not to be confused with the
                Franco-Prussian War which took place earlier, the Napoleonic Wars, the
                Crimean War, and quite a few other occasionally interesting wars. WW-I
                famously ended on the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh
                month or some such thing. This was commemorated as Armistice Day.
                People would wear poppies on Armistice Day in memorial to the battles
                that took place in places "Where poppies bloom" as in the lines of the
                poem. Paff! Paff! and again Paff!

                Incidentally, I recently read a book about WW-II which occasionally
                mentioned WW-I. The author argues that the Germans won practically
                every battle in WW-I with a 1:3 casualty rate. That is, if you valued
                your life, you wanted to be on the German side of the trenches. So why
                did the Germans call it quits? Simply, a British field marshal, whose
                name I forget at the moment, calculated that even with scandalous
                British losses, the Germans would run out of troops before the British
                provided that the British mined the colonies for what was literally
                canon fodder. The British implemented this plan. British officers were
                shooting colonial soldiers who refused to "go over the top". The
                British tried the same stunt in WW-II, but Canada had deftly secured
                its own field marshall and thereby opted out of the system. However,
                Australians and New Zealanders were not quite so fortunate.

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar

                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                | the trash by my email filters. |
                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Rick Johnson
                ... every battle in WW-I with a 1:3 casualty rate. That is, if you valued your life, you wanted to be on the German side of the trenches. So why did the
                Message 7 of 27 , Mar 10, 2006
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                  >>mentioned WW-I. The author argues that the Germans won practically
                  every battle in WW-I with a 1:3 casualty rate. That is, if you valued
                  your life, you wanted to be on the German side of the trenches. So why
                  did the Germans call it quits? Simply, a British field marshal, whose
                  name I forget at the moment, calculated that even with scandalous
                  British losses, the Germans would run out of troops before the British
                  provided that the British mined the colonies for what was literally
                  canon fodder. The British implemented this plan. British officers were
                  shooting colonial soldiers who refused to "go over the top".


                  I find this idea to be absolutly fascinating and my Irish nature wants to believe that the Brits could easily be capable of such a plan.
                  Is it true?



                  Rick Johnson, PO Box 40451, Tucson, Az. 85717
                  http://www.geocities.com/DesertHenge
                  http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_ERB
                  http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_RLJ


                  Please note: message attached




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                • JESSICA DODGE
                  YOu know they probly have something on this subject here at the Ft. Leavenworth Library. I will go and see sometime next week. I know I should ve brougt this
                  Message 8 of 27 , Mar 11, 2006
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                    YOu know they probly have something on this subject here at the Ft. Leavenworth Library. I will go and see sometime next week.
                    I know I should've brougt this up earlier. "DOH!"
                    Hotaru

                    Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
                    Noble Cousin!

                    Greetings from Solveig!
                    > I'll visit Amazon.com and see if the local military bookstore is still
                    > open.
                    > I've been seeking information on both Arabic and Japanese and
                    > Polynesian ships for years and the info on Jpanese, especially
                    > Muromachi and Tokagawa is so minimal my best sources are Junks washed
                    > on American shores.
                    There are pretty good histories of the Japanese Imperial Navy out
                    there. For a while I was into a naval miniatures gaming system and
                    bought a few of them. You can get plans for steam powered junks and
                    similar things. Finding earlier stuff is a bit more difficult. You
                    don't even get a lot at the National museum at Ueno. In contrast, the
                    National Museum in Seoul has a scale model of the turtle.

                    Your Humble Servant
                    Solveig Throndardottir
                    Amateur Scholar

                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                    | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                    | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                    | the trash by my email filters. |
                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                  • Solveig Throndardottir
                    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Again with all due deference to you and your father, going through the DMZ and then the entire length of North Vietnam to
                    Message 9 of 27 , Mar 11, 2006
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                      Noble Cousin!

                      Greetings from Solveig! Again with all due deference to you and your
                      father, going through the DMZ and then the entire length of North
                      Vietnam to invade China just doesn't make a whole lot of sense
                      especially when the Vietnamese and the Chinese were known to engage in
                      artillery duels on their border. Going through Laos makes a lot more
                      sense. The body bags would still be retagged in Saigon. Then again, the
                      officer corps of the U S Military is not always endowed with much
                      sense.

                      Your Humble Servant
                      Solveig Throndardottir
                      Amateur Scholar

                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                      | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                      | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                      | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                      | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                      | the trash by my email filters. |
                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Solveig Throndardottir
                      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... This often repeated phrase does damage to the Society. The Society is not simply about making up whatever you want. I
                      Message 10 of 27 , Mar 11, 2006
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                        Noble Cousin!

                        Greetings from Solveig!

                        > our own desires. The club is not history as it was but as it should
                        > have been. As we are tryingto do today, remember the history of
                        > Japanese piracythen re-write it into something usable as a persona.

                        This often repeated phrase does damage to the Society. The Society is
                        not simply about making up whatever you want. I suspect that repeating
                        this business about "how we wanted it to be" is one of the reasons that
                        the BoD is currently considering coming up with a mission statement. Do
                        we expect people to be 100% authentic? Absolutely not! Such
                        authenticity is impossible. However, we do expect folks to make a good
                        faith effort to ground what they do in real history. This sort of
                        expectation has been around since AS single digits.

                        How does this apply to recent discussions? Well, it applies to pirates.
                        Some people here like the idea of pirates. Should pirates be part of
                        what we do in the Society? Yes, if it is based on what really happened.
                        No, if you insist upon Treasure Island in kimono.

                        Your Humble Servant
                        Solveig Throndardottir
                        Amateur Scholar

                        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                        | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                        | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                        | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                        | the trash by my email filters. |
                        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Solveig Throndardottir
                        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! The part about British officers shooting the colonials is part of standard history in places like Australia and New
                        Message 11 of 27 , Mar 11, 2006
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                          Noble Cousin!

                          Greetings from Solveig! The part about British officers shooting the
                          colonials is part of standard history in places like Australia and New
                          Zealand. I believe it is also mentioned in the Boys Crusade. The
                          Russians had special KBG units armed with kalashnikovs to intercept
                          deserters. That last part I learned from a Russian. I also first
                          learned of the Russian spy in Tokyo from him. Basically, the Russians
                          found out that the Japanese planned to attack the U.S. and the British
                          and sent their eastern army West to fight the Germans.

                          Your Humble Servant
                          Solveig Throndardottir
                          Amateur Scholar

                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                          | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                          | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                          | the trash by my email filters. |
                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


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