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Re: [SCA-JML] Japanese piracy

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  • Gerard Gillespie
    Dear Rick Johnson , Please look under Osprey s New Vanguard 61@63 Fighting Ships of the East (1)@(2) Japan and Kores AD 612-1639 China and southeast Asia 202
    Message 1 of 27 , Mar 7, 2006
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      Dear Rick Johnson ,
      Please look under Osprey's New Vanguard 61@63 Fighting
      Ships of the East (1)@(2) Japan and Kores AD 612-1639
      China and southeast Asia 202 BC-AD 1419 They give you
      some history of the Wako Pirates and japanese ship
      design.
      Gerard

      --- Rick Johnson <rikjohnson@...> wrote:

      > I've been tryingto find materials on that myself
      > (for a writing matter, not persona) and have found
      > almost nothing.
      >
      > I ge tthe occasional reference to "Japanese pirates
      > raided the Moluccas" amd "Japanese pirates were
      > hired a mercenaries bu the Dutch" or "The Chinese
      > built a fleet to repress Japnaese Piracy" but no
      > information on their ships or customs or anything
      > useful, just tantalizing tidbits that would whet my
      > appite only without even trying to fill the stomach.
      >
      > If you find anything, please share.
      >
      >
      >
      > Rick Johnson, PO Box 40451, Tucson, Az. 85717
      > http://www.geocities.com/DesertHenge
      > http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_ERB
      > http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_RLJ
      >
      >
      > Please note: message attached
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      >
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    • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
      ... Well, have you been looking up Wako ? I m not sure how much you will find written down. From a Japanese point of view, I don t believe piracy was a
      Message 2 of 27 , Mar 7, 2006
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        On 3/7/06, Rick Johnson <rikjohnson@...> wrote:
        >
        > I've been tryingto find materials on that myself (for a writing matter,
        > not persona) and have found almost nothing.
        >

        Well, have you been looking up 'Wako'? I'm not sure how much you will find
        written down. From a Japanese point of view, I don't believe piracy was a
        major threat because, although an island nation, much of the history seems
        to have to do with what was happening on land, and I'm not sure that the
        pirates were really as active around the Japanese coast as they were
        elsewhere (Ryukyu/Okinawa islands, Korea, China, etc.). One of my East
        Asian history professors claimed that the major impetus for the piracy came
        out of the trade delegations sent from the 'King of Japan' to the Chinese
        imperial court: The Japanese, like many, had learned that by claiming to be
        nominal vassals of the Chinese court they could actually get better gifts
        than they gave (part of the court's attempt to show how magnanimous they
        were). However, with all of the fighting going on in Japan in the 14th
        century and later, various domains would send their own delegations--and the
        Chinese, growing tired of multiple delegations, only recognized one (from
        what he said, it was a first-come-first-served basis). That left many crews
        with nothing to take home and a perilous journey--and it was much simpler to
        raid the Chinese coast and capture what they needed to make it all worth
        their while.

        I'm not sure if any pirates ever stood out like the privateers who were
        romanticized in Europe, though. Depictions of pirates seem to be of a bunch
        of low-class and depraved scum--lower than ronin in the whole social order.
        However, these are all just my perceptions based on what I've seen, read,
        and heard, and could be wrong. Still, I would look to Korean, Chinese,
        Okinawan, and Indo-Chinese histories for more info on Japanese piracy.

        -Ii


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Solveig Throndardottir
        Ii dono! Greetings from Solveig! Pirates of one sort or another show up as a threat to navigation at least as early as Tosa Monogatari by Ki no Tsurayuki.
        Message 3 of 27 , Mar 7, 2006
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          Ii dono!

          Greetings from Solveig! "Pirates" of one sort or another show up as a
          threat to navigation at least as early as Tosa Monogatari by Ki no
          Tsurayuki. However, both pirates and mountain bandits appear to hold
          little interest for Japanese historians. Regardless, I would think that
          Japanese would be more interested in joining a proper naval unit.
          Although not that common, they did exist at least as troop transports.
          Troop ships show up in the Genpei War and the various Korean campaigns.
          Regardless, as I recall, the Koreans had the most interesting ships and
          the Chinese had the biggest.

          Frederic claims that the term wako was actually invented by the Koreans
          to describe the Japanese invasion forces in the fourth to fifth
          centuries.

          I will point out that at one point Kyoto Daigaku had a fairly active
          program studying old boats and ships. I once ran into one of their
          archaeologists somewhere in Niigata.

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar

          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
          | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
          | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
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        • Rick Johnson
          ... amazon.co.jp search fails to show up any books. Perhaps this is amatter that the Japanese find embarassing and wish to ignore. As an example, It is
          Message 4 of 27 , Mar 8, 2006
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            >>Greetings from Solveig! The really interesting thing is that an
            amazon.co.jp search fails to show up any books.

            Perhaps this is amatter that the Japanese find embarassing and wish to ignore.

            As an example, It is difficult to find information on the US invasion of Russia after WWI and impossible to find information on the US invasion of China in the 1960s because we lost those wars so the govt tries to hide those incidents as embarassing to national pride.
            Perhaps Japanese piracy is one of those.





            Rick Johnson, PO Box 40451, Tucson, Az. 85717
            http://www.geocities.com/DesertHenge
            http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_ERB
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          • Rick Johnson
            ... Thank you. I ll visit Amazon.com and see if the local military bookstore is still open. I ve been seeking information on both Arabic and Japanese and
            Message 5 of 27 , Mar 8, 2006
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              >>Please look under Osprey's New Vanguard 61@63 Fighting Ships of the East (1)@(2) Japan and Kores AD 612-1639 China and southeast Asia 202 BC-AD 1419 They give you some history of the Wako Pirates and japanese ship design.

              Thank you.
              I'll visit Amazon.com and see if the local military bookstore is still open.
              I've been seeking information on both Arabic and Japanese and Polynesian ships for years and the info on Jpanese, especially Muromachi and Tokagawa is so minimal my best sources are Junks washed on American shores.


              Rick Johnson, PO Box 40451, Tucson, Az. 85717
              http://www.geocities.com/DesertHenge
              http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_ERB
              http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_RLJ


              Please note: message attached




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            • Murakami Yoshiatsu
              Japanese piracy is not a very common subject, I must say (my SCA character is a Japanese pirate, so I know). I found a 20 page essay online that a professor
              Message 6 of 27 , Mar 8, 2006
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                Japanese piracy is not a very common subject, I must say (my SCA
                character is a Japanese pirate, so I know). I found a 20 page essay
                online that a professor did while he was a student at the University
                of Michigan. His name is Peter D. Shapinsky. It's the most in depth
                piece I've found on the subject so far. I emailed him in the hopes
                of finding out what his sources were for that essay, and I have not
                gotten a response from him yet. Of course, if I come across anything
                else, I will post it here...

                Reguards,
                Innoshima Murakami Yoshiatsu

                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Johnson" <rikjohnson@...> wrote:
                >
                > >>Please look under Osprey's New Vanguard 61@63 Fighting Ships of
                the East (1)@(2) Japan and Kores AD 612-1639 China and southeast Asia
                202 BC-AD 1419 They give you some history of the Wako Pirates and
                japanese ship design.
                >
                > Thank you.
                > I'll visit Amazon.com and see if the local military bookstore is
                still open.
                > I've been seeking information on both Arabic and Japanese and
                Polynesian ships for years and the info on Jpanese, especially
                Muromachi and Tokagawa is so minimal my best sources are Junks washed
                on American shores.
                >
                >
                > Rick Johnson, PO Box 40451, Tucson, Az. 85717
                > http://www.geocities.com/DesertHenge
                > http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_ERB
                > http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_RLJ
                >
              • Rick Johnson
                ... I don t suppose that the UoM put it on-line? or that a copy exists in an up-loadable form? So far, 20 pages is a lot of info. Also, what kind of junks did
                Message 7 of 27 , Mar 8, 2006
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                  >>I found a 20 page essay online that a professor did while he was a student at the University of Michigan. His name is Peter D. Shapinsky.

                  I don't suppose that the UoM put it on-line? or that a copy exists in an up-loadable form?

                  So far, 20 pages is a lot of info.

                  Also, what kind of junks did they use? By tokagawa times the Junk was so restricted as to be totally unseaworthy and the info on the differences between the Japanese and Chinese Junk is far and few.


                  Rick Johnson, PO Box 40451, Tucson, Az. 85717
                  http://www.geocities.com/DesertHenge
                  http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_ERB
                  http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_RLJ


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                • Park McKellop
                  A 5000 troop expeditionary force sent to Russia to assist the White Russians hardly counts as an invasion. ;-) China? Huh? Alcyoneus ... amazon.co.jp search
                  Message 8 of 27 , Mar 8, 2006
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                    A 5000 troop expeditionary force sent to Russia to assist the White Russians hardly counts as an invasion. ;-)

                    China? Huh?

                    Alcyoneus

                    Rick Johnson <rikjohnson@...> wrote:
                    >>Greetings from Solveig! The really interesting thing is that an
                    amazon.co.jp search fails to show up any books.

                    Perhaps this is amatter that the Japanese find embarassing and wish to ignore.

                    As an example, It is difficult to find information on the US invasion of Russia after WWI and impossible to find information on the US invasion of China in the 1960s because we lost those wars so the govt tries to hide those incidents as embarassing to national pride.
                    Perhaps Japanese piracy is one of those.





                    Rick Johnson, PO Box 40451, Tucson, Az. 85717
                    http://www.geocities.com/DesertHenge
                    http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_ERB
                    http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_RLJ


                    Please note: message attached




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                  • Rick Johnson
                    how many people constitutes an invasion? 1? 1000? 100,000? one million? And as for the China invasion, I know about it because my father was one of the
                    Message 9 of 27 , Mar 8, 2006
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                      how many people constitutes an invasion? 1? 1000? 100,000? one million?
                      And as for the China invasion, I know about it because my father was one of the soldiers sent into china by way of Vietnam. he lived, others did not.

                      My point is not that things like this are activly repressed (as in the Kennedy assissination or Waco FBI film) but that they are conveninetly ignored and carefully avoided, ignored, whatever as embarassing to national identity so that the majority of Americans simply do not know of that action and refuse to believe it when it is brought to their attention.

                      This may be why there is so little info on Japanese piracy, it is embarssing so there are very few historians in Japan willing to cover the subject.



                      Rick Johnson, PO Box 40451, Tucson, Az. 85717
                      http://www.geocities.com/DesertHenge
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                      http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_RLJ


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                    • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                      ... Could you provide more information on what particular action you are talking about? I m assuming you are talking about US support to Chiang Kai-shek and
                      Message 10 of 27 , Mar 8, 2006
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                        On 3/8/06, Rick Johnson <rikjohnson@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > how many people constitutes an invasion? 1? 1000? 100,000? one million?
                        > And as for the China invasion, I know about it because my father was one
                        > of the soldiers sent into china by way of Vietnam. he lived, others did
                        > not.


                        Could you provide more information on what particular action you are talking
                        about? I'm assuming you are talking about US support to Chiang Kai-shek and
                        his Nationalist party--if that's what you mean, then it is hardly an
                        invasion. At least, no more than the French invaded, assisting the
                        Americans in the Revolutionary War.

                        In the long run, though, I don't see that our involvement was significant
                        enough to be one of the major points of WWII, but neither do I see any
                        'cover up'.

                        Similarly, I believe that the reason we don't see much on Japanese piracy is
                        because, for the Japanese, it was not a significant influence on the major
                        history of the islands. However, we do see it in Korean and Chinese history
                        because it was quite pertinent to them. I don't think this has to do with
                        'embarassment' so much as interest: there is still so much in Japanese yet
                        to make it into English literature. On top of that, the people in Japan
                        were concerned about the wars and politics that most directly affected them,
                        and once again, I'm not sure that piracy was making such a big impact.

                        That said, if you are really interested, I'd look into diaries and personal
                        writings from the Kyushu area, as I would imagine that they would have some
                        of the better resources on the more long-range pirates. Look around the
                        Seto sea, too, as it seems to have had enough traffic and islands to make
                        piracy viable.

                        -Ii


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • James Eckman
                        ... Does the average American give a rat s ass about history? Unless it s sports... WW2 isn t that the war with the Kaiser? Jim Eckman
                        Message 11 of 27 , Mar 9, 2006
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                          > From: "Rick Johnson" <rikjohnson@...>
                          >
                          >My point is not that things like this are activly repressed (as in the Kennedy assissination or Waco FBI film) but that they are conveninetly ignored and carefully avoided, ignored, whatever as embarassing to national identity so that the majority of Americans simply do not know of that action and refuse to believe it when it is brought to their attention.
                          >
                          >
                          Does the average American give a rat's ass about history? Unless it's
                          sports... WW2 isn't that the war with the Kaiser?

                          Jim Eckman
                        • Solveig Throndardottir
                          Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... And, here I recall learning about the US expeditionary forces siding with the White Russians in Junior High School.
                          Message 12 of 27 , Mar 9, 2006
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                            Noble Cousin!

                            Greetings from Solveig!

                            > As an example, It is difficult to find information on the US invasion
                            > of Russia after WWI and impossible to find information on the US
                            > invasion of China in the 1960s because we lost those wars so the govt
                            > tries to hide those incidents as embarassing to national pride.
                            > Perhaps Japanese piracy is one of those.

                            And, here I recall learning about the US expeditionary forces siding
                            with the "White Russians" in Junior High School.

                            As for an invasion of China. Are you talking about the capture of the
                            Pueblo? Mac Arthur's threatened invasion of China was in the early
                            1950's. There was occasional sabre rattling about using nuclear weapons
                            various places in East Asia, but that came to nothing.

                            If you want stuff that may be even more embarassing, then you should
                            bring up things like the Opium War and the Boxer Rebellion. Emanuel
                            Noriega doesn't hold a candle to the UK and the USA in the history of
                            drug pushing. However, both of these incidents showed up in Junior High
                            School and High School history texts.

                            Your Humble Servant
                            Solveig Throndardottir
                            Amateur Scholar

                            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                            | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                            | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                            | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                            | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                            | the trash by my email filters. |
                            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Solveig Throndardottir
                            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... There are pretty good histories of the Japanese Imperial Navy out there. For a while I was into a naval miniatures
                            Message 13 of 27 , Mar 9, 2006
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                              Noble Cousin!

                              Greetings from Solveig!
                              > I'll visit Amazon.com and see if the local military bookstore is still
                              > open.
                              > I've been seeking information on both Arabic and Japanese and
                              > Polynesian ships for years and the info on Jpanese, especially
                              > Muromachi and Tokagawa is so minimal my best sources are Junks washed
                              > on American shores.
                              There are pretty good histories of the Japanese Imperial Navy out
                              there. For a while I was into a naval miniatures gaming system and
                              bought a few of them. You can get plans for steam powered junks and
                              similar things. Finding earlier stuff is a bit more difficult. You
                              don't even get a lot at the National museum at Ueno. In contrast, the
                              National Museum in Seoul has a scale model of the turtle.

                              Your Humble Servant
                              Solveig Throndardottir
                              Amateur Scholar

                              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                              | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                              | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                              | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                              | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                              | the trash by my email filters. |
                              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Park McKellop
                              The capture of the USS Pueblo was c1968, by North Korea, under the father of the current fruitcake. The current fruitcake gets a big Hawaian Good Luck Sign
                              Message 14 of 27 , Mar 9, 2006
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                                The capture of the USS Pueblo was c1968, by North Korea, under the father of the current fruitcake. The current fruitcake gets a big "Hawaian Good Luck Sign" from me. ;-)

                                Alcyoneus

                                Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
                                Noble Cousin!

                                Greetings from Solveig!

                                > As an example, It is difficult to find information on the US invasion
                                > of Russia after WWI and impossible to find information on the US
                                > invasion of China in the 1960s because we lost those wars so the govt
                                > tries to hide those incidents as embarassing to national pride.
                                > Perhaps Japanese piracy is one of those.

                                And, here I recall learning about the US expeditionary forces siding
                                with the "White Russians" in Junior High School.

                                As for an invasion of China. Are you talking about the capture of the
                                Pueblo? Mac Arthur's threatened invasion of China was in the early
                                1950's. There was occasional sabre rattling about using nuclear weapons
                                various places in East Asia, but that came to nothing.

                                If you want stuff that may be even more embarassing, then you should
                                bring up things like the Opium War and the Boxer Rebellion. Emanuel
                                Noriega doesn't hold a candle to the UK and the USA in the history of
                                drug pushing. However, both of these incidents showed up in Junior High
                                School and High School history texts.

                                Your Humble Servant
                                Solveig Throndardottir
                                Amateur Scholar

                                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                                | the trash by my email filters. |
                                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


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                              • Solveig Throndardottir
                                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Are you sure that you aren t misrembering things or that your father isn t embellishing his war stories a tad? There
                                Message 15 of 27 , Mar 9, 2006
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                                  Noble Cousin!

                                  Greetings from Solveig!

                                  > And as for the China invasion, I know about it because my father was
                                  > one of the soldiers sent into china by way of Vietnam. he lived,
                                  > others did not.

                                  Are you sure that you aren't misrembering things or that your father
                                  isn't embellishing his war stories a tad? There wasn't a whole lot of
                                  US ground activity North of the DMZ during the Vietnam War. And, China
                                  is a long way North of the DMZ. There was a lot of bombing of the
                                  North, incursions into Cambodia and Laos and stuff like that.

                                  Here is a link for a map of Laos:

                                  http://media.maps.com/magellan/Images/LAOS-W1.gif

                                  You will notice that it parallels Vietnam. There was an incursion of US
                                  forces into both Laos and Cambodia during the Vietnam War. The idea was
                                  to interdict the Ho Chi Minh Trail. What the incursions actually
                                  accomplished was the collapse of both the Laotian and Cambodian
                                  governments. You father may have been involved in a Laos incursion and
                                  may have even at some point stepped foot into China, but there was
                                  never a militarily significant US invasion force operating in China
                                  during the Vietnam War. I refer you to the size of Japanese Armies
                                  operating in China somewhat earlier. It is extremely difficult to hide
                                  an army of that size as it would of necessity be larger than the total
                                  US troop strength in Southeast Asia during the Vietnam War.

                                  Your Humble Servant
                                  Solveig Throndardottir
                                  Amateur Scholar

                                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                  | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                  | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                  | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                  | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                                  | the trash by my email filters. |
                                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


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                                • Rick Johnson
                                  ... Of course you are right. As Diogenes said, Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. But then, the SCA not only rememberes it
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Mar 10, 2006
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                                    >>Does the average American give a rat's ass about history? Unless it's sports... WW2 isn't that the war with the Kaiser?

                                    Of course you are right. As Diogenes said, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

                                    But then, the SCA not only rememberes it fondly, we re-write it to our own desires. The club is not history as it was but as it should have been. As we are tryingto do today, remember the history of Japanese piracythen re-write it into something usable as a persona.
                                    It doesn't eman we forget, it simply means we have fun.




                                    Rick Johnson, PO Box 40451, Tucson, Az. 85717
                                    http://www.geocities.com/DesertHenge
                                    http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_ERB
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                                  • Rick Johnson
                                    How true. For a truely maritime nation, the info on medieval Japanese ships is woefully inadequate. ... there. For a while I was into a naval miniatures gaming
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Mar 10, 2006
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                                      How true.
                                      For a truely maritime nation, the info on medieval Japanese ships is woefully inadequate.



                                      >>There are pretty good histories of the Japanese Imperial Navy out
                                      there. For a while I was into a naval miniatures gaming system and
                                      bought a few of them. You can get plans for steam powered junks and
                                      similar things. Finding earlier stuff is a bit more difficult. You
                                      don't even get a lot at the National museum at Ueno. In contrast, the
                                      National Museum in Seoul has a scale model of the turtle.



                                      Rick Johnson, PO Box 40451, Tucson, Az. 85717
                                      http://www.geocities.com/DesertHenge
                                      http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_ERB
                                      http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_RLJ


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                                    • Rick Johnson
                                      ... 1950 s. There was occasional sabre rattling about using nuclear weapons various places in East Asia, but that came to nothing. The pueblo was captured by
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Mar 10, 2006
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                                        >>As for an invasion of China. Are you talking about the capture of the Pueblo? Mac Arthur's threatened invasion of China was in the early
                                        1950's. There was occasional sabre rattling about using nuclear weapons various places in East Asia, but that came to nothing.

                                        The pueblo was captured by the N. Korea while it was spying on them. We still don't know if it was in international or Korean waters. Considering thehistory of bith the US and Korea, either could be valid.

                                        I'm refering to the actual military invasion of China from Vietnam in the early 1960's. The US told families that their husbands/fathers/brothers/sons were in Vietnam, which they were for as long as it took them to get through that nation and enter China.

                                        Body bags were shipped to Saigon and the tags changed from "KIA China" to "KIA Vietnam". I only know about it because of my father's involvement in that invasion which he said we got our asses whipped.

                                        But then, I was involved in a certain central American war that also never made the news because we lost there too and so was too embarassing to the prez. Also certain medical experiments I assisted with on unwilling American and Arabs. It happens all the time and is mostly kept secret for fear of embarassing the Prez and to encourage the people involved to keep doing them when they should be compared to J. mengele.


                                        Rick Johnson, PO Box 40451, Tucson, Az. 85717
                                        http://www.geocities.com/DesertHenge
                                        http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_ERB
                                        http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_RLJ


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                                      • wodeford
                                        ... our own desires. The club is not history as it was but as it should have been. As we are tryingto do today, remember the history of Japanese piracythen
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Mar 10, 2006
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                                          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Johnson" <rikjohnson@...> wrote:
                                          > But then, the SCA not only rememberes it fondly, we re-write it to
                                          our own desires. The club is not history as it was but as it should
                                          have been. As we are tryingto do today, remember the history of
                                          Japanese piracythen re-write it into something usable as a persona.

                                          We do our ancestors a disservice when we randomly make things up about
                                          them.

                                          Saionji no Hanae,
                                          People For The Ethical Treatment of History
                                        • Solveig Throndardottir
                                          Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Wasn t the war with Kaiser Wilhelm called The Great War , The War to End War , and later on WW-I ?? Not to be
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Mar 10, 2006
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                                            Noble Cousin!

                                            Greetings from Solveig!
                                            > Does the average American give a rat's ass about history? Unless it's
                                            > sports... WW2 isn't that the war with the Kaiser?
                                            Wasn't the war with Kaiser Wilhelm called "The Great War", "The War to
                                            End War", and later on WW-I ?? Not to be confused with the
                                            Franco-Prussian War which took place earlier, the Napoleonic Wars, the
                                            Crimean War, and quite a few other occasionally interesting wars. WW-I
                                            famously ended on the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh
                                            month or some such thing. This was commemorated as Armistice Day.
                                            People would wear poppies on Armistice Day in memorial to the battles
                                            that took place in places "Where poppies bloom" as in the lines of the
                                            poem. Paff! Paff! and again Paff!

                                            Incidentally, I recently read a book about WW-II which occasionally
                                            mentioned WW-I. The author argues that the Germans won practically
                                            every battle in WW-I with a 1:3 casualty rate. That is, if you valued
                                            your life, you wanted to be on the German side of the trenches. So why
                                            did the Germans call it quits? Simply, a British field marshal, whose
                                            name I forget at the moment, calculated that even with scandalous
                                            British losses, the Germans would run out of troops before the British
                                            provided that the British mined the colonies for what was literally
                                            canon fodder. The British implemented this plan. British officers were
                                            shooting colonial soldiers who refused to "go over the top". The
                                            British tried the same stunt in WW-II, but Canada had deftly secured
                                            its own field marshall and thereby opted out of the system. However,
                                            Australians and New Zealanders were not quite so fortunate.

                                            Your Humble Servant
                                            Solveig Throndardottir
                                            Amateur Scholar

                                            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                            | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                            | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                            | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                                            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                            | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                                            | the trash by my email filters. |
                                            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Rick Johnson
                                            ... every battle in WW-I with a 1:3 casualty rate. That is, if you valued your life, you wanted to be on the German side of the trenches. So why did the
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Mar 10, 2006
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              >>mentioned WW-I. The author argues that the Germans won practically
                                              every battle in WW-I with a 1:3 casualty rate. That is, if you valued
                                              your life, you wanted to be on the German side of the trenches. So why
                                              did the Germans call it quits? Simply, a British field marshal, whose
                                              name I forget at the moment, calculated that even with scandalous
                                              British losses, the Germans would run out of troops before the British
                                              provided that the British mined the colonies for what was literally
                                              canon fodder. The British implemented this plan. British officers were
                                              shooting colonial soldiers who refused to "go over the top".


                                              I find this idea to be absolutly fascinating and my Irish nature wants to believe that the Brits could easily be capable of such a plan.
                                              Is it true?



                                              Rick Johnson, PO Box 40451, Tucson, Az. 85717
                                              http://www.geocities.com/DesertHenge
                                              http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_ERB
                                              http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_RLJ


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                                            • JESSICA DODGE
                                              YOu know they probly have something on this subject here at the Ft. Leavenworth Library. I will go and see sometime next week. I know I should ve brougt this
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Mar 11, 2006
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                                                YOu know they probly have something on this subject here at the Ft. Leavenworth Library. I will go and see sometime next week.
                                                I know I should've brougt this up earlier. "DOH!"
                                                Hotaru

                                                Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
                                                Noble Cousin!

                                                Greetings from Solveig!
                                                > I'll visit Amazon.com and see if the local military bookstore is still
                                                > open.
                                                > I've been seeking information on both Arabic and Japanese and
                                                > Polynesian ships for years and the info on Jpanese, especially
                                                > Muromachi and Tokagawa is so minimal my best sources are Junks washed
                                                > on American shores.
                                                There are pretty good histories of the Japanese Imperial Navy out
                                                there. For a while I was into a naval miniatures gaming system and
                                                bought a few of them. You can get plans for steam powered junks and
                                                similar things. Finding earlier stuff is a bit more difficult. You
                                                don't even get a lot at the National museum at Ueno. In contrast, the
                                                National Museum in Seoul has a scale model of the turtle.

                                                Your Humble Servant
                                                Solveig Throndardottir
                                                Amateur Scholar

                                                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                                | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                                | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                                | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                                                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                                | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                                                | the trash by my email filters. |
                                                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Solveig Throndardottir
                                                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Again with all due deference to you and your father, going through the DMZ and then the entire length of North Vietnam to
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Mar 11, 2006
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                                                  Noble Cousin!

                                                  Greetings from Solveig! Again with all due deference to you and your
                                                  father, going through the DMZ and then the entire length of North
                                                  Vietnam to invade China just doesn't make a whole lot of sense
                                                  especially when the Vietnamese and the Chinese were known to engage in
                                                  artillery duels on their border. Going through Laos makes a lot more
                                                  sense. The body bags would still be retagged in Saigon. Then again, the
                                                  officer corps of the U S Military is not always endowed with much
                                                  sense.

                                                  Your Humble Servant
                                                  Solveig Throndardottir
                                                  Amateur Scholar

                                                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                                  | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                                  | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                                  | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                                                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                                  | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                                                  | the trash by my email filters. |
                                                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • Solveig Throndardottir
                                                  Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... This often repeated phrase does damage to the Society. The Society is not simply about making up whatever you want. I
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Mar 11, 2006
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                                                    Noble Cousin!

                                                    Greetings from Solveig!

                                                    > our own desires. The club is not history as it was but as it should
                                                    > have been. As we are tryingto do today, remember the history of
                                                    > Japanese piracythen re-write it into something usable as a persona.

                                                    This often repeated phrase does damage to the Society. The Society is
                                                    not simply about making up whatever you want. I suspect that repeating
                                                    this business about "how we wanted it to be" is one of the reasons that
                                                    the BoD is currently considering coming up with a mission statement. Do
                                                    we expect people to be 100% authentic? Absolutely not! Such
                                                    authenticity is impossible. However, we do expect folks to make a good
                                                    faith effort to ground what they do in real history. This sort of
                                                    expectation has been around since AS single digits.

                                                    How does this apply to recent discussions? Well, it applies to pirates.
                                                    Some people here like the idea of pirates. Should pirates be part of
                                                    what we do in the Society? Yes, if it is based on what really happened.
                                                    No, if you insist upon Treasure Island in kimono.

                                                    Your Humble Servant
                                                    Solveig Throndardottir
                                                    Amateur Scholar

                                                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                                    | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                                    | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                                    | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                                                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                                    | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                                                    | the trash by my email filters. |
                                                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • Solveig Throndardottir
                                                    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! The part about British officers shooting the colonials is part of standard history in places like Australia and New
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Mar 11, 2006
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Noble Cousin!

                                                      Greetings from Solveig! The part about British officers shooting the
                                                      colonials is part of standard history in places like Australia and New
                                                      Zealand. I believe it is also mentioned in the Boys Crusade. The
                                                      Russians had special KBG units armed with kalashnikovs to intercept
                                                      deserters. That last part I learned from a Russian. I also first
                                                      learned of the Russian spy in Tokyo from him. Basically, the Russians
                                                      found out that the Japanese planned to attack the U.S. and the British
                                                      and sent their eastern army West to fight the Germans.

                                                      Your Humble Servant
                                                      Solveig Throndardottir
                                                      Amateur Scholar

                                                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                                      | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                                      | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                                      | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                                                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                                      | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                                                      | the trash by my email filters. |
                                                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


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