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the male kimono

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  • latanya.taylor@comcast.net
    Greetings everyone, I am very new to the SCA and am in need of some direction. My husband has decided that he wishes to adopt the Muromachi Period for his
    Message 1 of 24 , Jan 10, 2006
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      Greetings everyone,

      I am very new to the SCA and am in need of some direction. My husband has decided that he wishes to adopt the Muromachi Period for his persona. while he is quite capable of doing his own research i (as his good lil wife) will be making his garb. can anyone point me in the direction of a few good sites on how to make the garb he will need? as far as armor i believe the hubby is doing that himself.

      my thanks

      -affrika




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • wodeford
      ... husband has decided that he wishes to adopt the Muromachi Period for his persona. while he is quite capable of doing his own research i (as his good lil
      Message 2 of 24 , Jan 10, 2006
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        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, latanya.taylor@c... wrote:
        >
        > Greetings everyone,
        >
        > I am very new to the SCA and am in need of some direction. My
        husband has decided that he wishes to adopt the Muromachi Period for
        his persona. while he is quite capable of doing his own research i (as
        his good lil wife) will be making his garb. can anyone point me in the
        direction of a few good sites on how to make the garb he will need? as
        far as armor i believe the hubby is doing that himself.

        Go visit the Links and Files sections at
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/ as there are lots of resources
        (including some pdfs of garment patterns for men!)

        Saionji no Hanae,
        Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
      • Solveig Throndardottir
        Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! I just can t stand it anymore. Nobody has yet mentioned that Date Saburou Yuki ie was inducted in the Fleur of
        Message 3 of 24 , Jan 10, 2006
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          Noble Cousins!

          Greetings from Solveig! I just can't stand it anymore. Nobody has yet
          mentioned that Date Saburou Yuki'ie was inducted in the Fleur of
          AEthelmearc on Saturday for good deeds and skills too numerous to
          mention, but including: clothing, armour, arrows, quivers, and
          calligraphy. For those of you not familiar with the Fleur, it is a
          grant level award of high merit in the arts and sciences. Regardless of
          any awards received or not received, Date dono is a fine fellow.

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar

          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
          | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
          | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
          | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
          | the trash by my email filters. |
          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Elizabeth Chase
          However you say it Japanese, well done, milord..... bout da-----d time, too. Iriye Solveig Throndardottir wrote: Noble Cousins!
          Message 4 of 24 , Jan 10, 2006
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            However you say it Japanese, well done, milord..... bout 'da-----d' time, too.

            Iriye

            Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
            Noble Cousins!

            Greetings from Solveig! I just can't stand it anymore. Nobody has yet
            mentioned that Date Saburou Yuki'ie was inducted in the Fleur of
            AEthelmearc on Saturday for good deeds and skills too numerous to
            mention, but including: clothing, armour, arrows, quivers, and
            calligraphy. For those of you not familiar with the Fleur, it is a
            grant level award of high merit in the arts and sciences. Regardless of
            any awards received or not received, Date dono is a fine fellow.

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar

            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
            | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
            | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
            | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
            | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
            | the trash by my email filters. |
            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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          • Jennifer Kobayashi
            ... Regardless of ... I second that and hearty congratulations to Date-dono! Ki no Izumi __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?
            Message 5 of 24 , Jan 12, 2006
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              --- Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:

              Regardless of
              > any awards received or not received, Date dono is a
              > fine fellow.
              >
              >
              I second that and hearty congratulations to Date-dono!
              Ki no Izumi

              __________________________________________________
              Do You Yahoo!?
              Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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            • Anthony Bryant
              ... Well, POOP! No one tells me *anything*! Grrr. Yukiie --etaki koto, na! Effingham, proud peer -- Anthony J. Bryant Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com
              Message 6 of 24 , Jan 12, 2006
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                Solveig Throndardottir wrote:
                > Noble Cousins!
                >
                > Greetings from Solveig! I just can't stand it anymore. Nobody has yet
                > mentioned that Date Saburou Yuki'ie was inducted in the Fleur of
                > AEthelmearc on Saturday for good deeds and skills too numerous to
                > mention, but including: clothing, armour, arrows, quivers, and
                > calligraphy. For those of you not familiar with the Fleur, it is a
                > grant level award of high merit in the arts and sciences. Regardless of
                > any awards received or not received, Date dono is a fine fellow.

                Well, POOP!

                No one tells me *anything*!

                Grrr.

                Yukiie --etaki koto, na!


                Effingham, proud peer
                --

                Anthony J. Bryant
                Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

                Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
                http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

                All sorts of cool things Japanese and SCA:
                http://www.cafepress.com/sengokudaimyo
              • JESSICA DODGE
                I was told that the opening in the side of hakama s is not period. I was also told that the sleeves of the outer kimono s partial openings are not period. I
                Message 7 of 24 , Jan 12, 2006
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                  I was told that the opening in the side of hakama's is not period. I was also told that the sleeves of the outer kimono's partial openings are not period.
                  I would like to take an opurtunity to dismiss the fact is not period and say that is it is.

                  The most prominent piantings that prove this is

                  The market of Fukuoka Ippen hijiri e den scroll 4, page 7,
                  in the Tokyo National museum

                  Aki no yo no nagamonogatari of the Idemitsu Museum of Arts

                  These works have been dated to the 14th century and unless this inforamtion has changed since 2003, my book is correct.
                  The reason I bring this up is becuase a leader in the field of Japanese studies within the SCA has taught this to a number of people. And unless somebody can tell me why these paintings are dismissed (or maybe over looked) then I will contiue to make my garb the way I have been for a awhile.

                  Now, that is not to say she isn't entirely incorrect. Not ALL Kimmno has the slits. Some are sewn all the way, in the paintings, And that includes the Hakama's. (that is to say some of the Hakama's in the paintings do not have the openings in the side.) However to make a general over all statement like " the openings in Hakama's and Kimono are not period" is wrong in my book.

                  So here is something open for dicussion. And I am SURE there are more examples, but I don't have anymore off the top of my head. Does anyone know of anymore examples?
                  Hotaru


                  wodeford <wodeford@...> wrote: --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, latanya.taylor@c... wrote:
                  >
                  > Greetings everyone,
                  >
                  > I am very new to the SCA and am in need of some direction. My
                  husband has decided that he wishes to adopt the Muromachi Period for
                  his persona. while he is quite capable of doing his own research i (as
                  his good lil wife) will be making his garb. can anyone point me in the
                  direction of a few good sites on how to make the garb he will need? as
                  far as armor i believe the hubby is doing that himself.

                  Go visit the Links and Files sections at
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/ as there are lots of resources
                  (including some pdfs of garment patterns for men!)

                  Saionji no Hanae,
                  Province of the Mists, West Kingdom





                  UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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                • Anthony Bryant
                  ... That s weird. It should be medetaki koto. Sigh. Effingham -- Anthony J. Bryant Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com Effingham s Heraldic Avatars (...and
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jan 12, 2006
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                    Anthony Bryant wrote:

                    > Yukiie --etaki koto, na!

                    That's weird. It should be "medetaki koto." Sigh.


                    Effingham

                    --

                    Anthony J. Bryant
                    Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

                    Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
                    http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

                    All sorts of cool things Japanese and SCA:
                    http://www.cafepress.com/sengokudaimyo
                  • Anthony Bryant
                    ... Where, and by whom? That s clearly erroneous information. ... Not quite sure what this means -- but without openings, how does the hand get out? ... WHO? I
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jan 12, 2006
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                      JESSICA DODGE wrote:

                      > I was told that the opening in the side of hakama's is not period.

                      Where, and by whom? That's clearly erroneous information.

                      > I
                      > was also told that the sleeves of the outer kimono's partial openings
                      > are not period.

                      Not quite sure what this means -- but without openings, how
                      does the hand get out?


                      > The reason I bring this up is becuase a leader in the field of
                      > Japanese studies within the SCA has taught this to a number of people.
                      > And unless somebody can tell me why these paintings are dismissed (or
                      > maybe over looked) then I will contiue to make my garb the way I have
                      > been for a awhile.

                      WHO? I don't know anyone who's been saying this.

                      I'm kinda confused... It sounds like trying to debunk
                      someone who says "shoes aren't period."

                      Effingham
                      --

                      Anthony J. Bryant
                      Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

                      Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
                      http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

                      All sorts of cool things Japanese and SCA:
                      http://www.cafepress.com/sengokudaimyo
                    • Elaine Koogler
                      ... Yeah...the only thing I ve ever heard that s even close is the fact that the stiffened board seen in the back of later period hakama isn t period. Kiri
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jan 12, 2006
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                        Anthony Bryant wrote:

                        > JESSICA DODGE wrote:
                        >
                        > > I was told that the opening in the side of hakama's is not period.
                        >
                        > Where, and by whom? That's clearly erroneous information.
                        >
                        > > I
                        > > was also told that the sleeves of the outer kimono's partial openings
                        > > are not period.
                        >
                        > Not quite sure what this means -- but without openings, how
                        > does the hand get out?
                        >
                        >
                        > > The reason I bring this up is becuase a leader in the field of
                        > > Japanese studies within the SCA has taught this to a number of people.
                        > > And unless somebody can tell me why these paintings are dismissed (or
                        > > maybe over looked) then I will contiue to make my garb the way I have
                        > > been for a awhile.
                        >
                        > WHO? I don't know anyone who's been saying this.
                        >
                        > I'm kinda confused... It sounds like trying to debunk
                        > someone who says "shoes aren't period."
                        >
                        > Effingham
                        > --

                        Yeah...the only thing I've ever heard that's even close is the fact that
                        the stiffened board seen in the back of later period hakama isn't period.

                        Kiri
                      • Solveig Throndardottir
                        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! If possible, please include the URL for pictures that you have found at electronic museums when you cite them as part of
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jan 12, 2006
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                          Noble Cousin!

                          Greetings from Solveig! If possible, please include the URL for
                          pictures that you have found at electronic museums when you cite them
                          as part of discussions here. Doing so makes it a lot easier for people
                          to go look at them and know what you are talking about.

                          As for hakama with side slite, I have hakama with side slits. The
                          nuikata book has patterns for hakama with side slits.

                          As for sleaves, I am as much in the dark about what precisely you are
                          talking about as is Baron Edward. Sleaves have undergone a LOT of
                          eveolution in Japan. What people may be telling you is that modern
                          yukata sleaves and modern kosode/kimono sleaves are not canonical for
                          premodern garments.

                          If people are trying to point you at better than a folkwear pattern,
                          well I have to agree. My major concern though is not whether or not you
                          are using folkwear patterns or the Japanese clothing concepts book to
                          make clothing, but whether you are telling people that folkwear
                          patterns or the patterns in the popular book inherently show you how to
                          make premodern clothing of the buke or kuge classes.

                          Regardless, best possible wishes with your clothing projects.
                          Your Humble Servant
                          Solveig Throndardottir
                          Amateur Scholar

                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                          | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                          | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                          | the trash by my email filters. |
                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • JESSICA DODGE
                          A part of the class in Japanese Garb, at Known World Costuming Sysmposium. I miss that portion of the class, and my friend was filling me in on what I missed.
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jan 12, 2006
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                            A part of the class in Japanese Garb, at Known World Costuming Sysmposium. I miss that portion of the class, and my friend was filling me in on what I missed. The class was Taught By Cass McCann. She is suppossed to be a leader in her field. Now, either my friend is mistaken, (which I beleive is the case) Or Cass McCann isn't quite the leader she claims. Anybody who has even lightly peared at Japanese Paintings will have noticed the fact that openings in the side of Hakama's are there.

                            The openings in the sleeves I am referring to is the part of the top of the sleeve that doesn't get sewn all the way around. (you know whn the sleeve appears to be hanging off)

                            This statement also makes me doubt the validity of my "freind" She has made several statements that nobody in Calontir would know if it was period or not anyway, Except maybe her. Which completly dicounts the fact that Yoshi-sama has been around and doing a Japanese persona for a LOT longer than her. (She has been around for a couple of years) And she dimisses that fact that he has a laurel and she doesn't. It makes me wonder how much she actually knows.

                            This isn't the first time that she has misdirected me, (or stabbed me in the back) That is why I am asking now. Becuase This statement, well as you put it "HAs my smell-o-meter going off" I want more than one person "dimeing her out" so to speak.
                            Unfortunatly, in my shire, I could say the sky is blue, and nobody would believe me. If I have other sources to correct her, maybe she (and others) will take me a little more seriously. I am frankly tires of being thier reseach joke.

                            Sorry! This wasn't meant to be a rant! I am a littled flustered. But This time AI want to arm my self with some sources that aren't so easliy dismissed.
                            Thanks Bunches!!
                            Hotaru

                            Anthony Bryant <anthony_bryant@...> wrote:
                            JESSICA DODGE wrote:

                            > I was told that the opening in the side of hakama's is not period.

                            Where, and by whom? That's clearly erroneous information.

                            > I
                            > was also told that the sleeves of the outer kimono's partial openings
                            > are not period.

                            Not quite sure what this means -- but without openings, how
                            does the hand get out?


                            > The reason I bring this up is becuase a leader in the field of
                            > Japanese studies within the SCA has taught this to a number of people.
                            > And unless somebody can tell me why these paintings are dismissed (or
                            > maybe over looked) then I will contiue to make my garb the way I have
                            > been for a awhile.

                            WHO? I don't know anyone who's been saying this.

                            I'm kinda confused... It sounds like trying to debunk
                            someone who says "shoes aren't period."

                            Effingham
                            --

                            Anthony J. Bryant
                            Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

                            Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
                            http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

                            All sorts of cool things Japanese and SCA:
                            http://www.cafepress.com/sengokudaimyo




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                          • JESSICA DODGE
                            I do not have digital pics. I have a text book with the pic in it. The book has nothing to do with garb, but I have it for the pic becuase some of them are
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jan 12, 2006
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                              I do not have digital pics. I have a text book with the pic in it. The book has nothing to do with garb, but I have it for the pic becuase some of them are close up.
                              The text book the pic I am referring to is
                              State of War- The violent order of the fourtteenth century Japan
                              Copyright 2003, Published by the center for Japanese studies, university of Michigan
                              ISBN 1-929280-23-8

                              This is a text book this is used to teach soldiers at Ft. Leavenworth. The book is good. In the middle of the book are a number of colored plates. plate 18, is the market of Fukuoka, and plate 20, is a close up of women fleeing a battlefield.
                              In both plates, it is VERY hard to ignore the openings in the Kimono's and Hakama's.

                              Hope that helps.
                              Hotaru

                              Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
                              Noble Cousin!

                              Greetings from Solveig! If possible, please include the URL for
                              pictures that you have found at electronic museums when you cite them
                              as part of discussions here. Doing so makes it a lot easier for people
                              to go look at them and know what you are talking about.

                              As for hakama with side slite, I have hakama with side slits. The
                              nuikata book has patterns for hakama with side slits.

                              As for sleaves, I am as much in the dark about what precisely you are
                              talking about as is Baron Edward. Sleaves have undergone a LOT of
                              eveolution in Japan. What people may be telling you is that modern
                              yukata sleaves and modern kosode/kimono sleaves are not canonical for
                              premodern garments.

                              If people are trying to point you at better than a folkwear pattern,
                              well I have to agree. My major concern though is not whether or not you
                              are using folkwear patterns or the Japanese clothing concepts book to
                              make clothing, but whether you are telling people that folkwear
                              patterns or the patterns in the popular book inherently show you how to
                              make premodern clothing of the buke or kuge classes.

                              Regardless, best possible wishes with your clothing projects.
                              Your Humble Servant
                              Solveig Throndardottir
                              Amateur Scholar

                              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                              | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                              | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                              | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                              | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                              | the trash by my email filters. |
                              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                              ---------------------------------
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                            • Anthony Bryant
                              ... Well, something was clearly misinterpreted, as Kass is indeed quite an expert and definitely knows her stuff -- she knows quite well the pattern and
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jan 12, 2006
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                                JESSICA DODGE wrote:
                                > A part of the class in Japanese Garb, at Known World Costuming
                                > Sysmposium. I miss that portion of the class, and my friend was filling
                                > me in on what I missed. The class was Taught By Cass McCann. She is
                                > suppossed to be a leader in her field. Now, either my friend is
                                > mistaken, (which I beleive is the case) Or Cass McCann isn't quite the
                                > leader she claims. Anybody who has even lightly peared at Japanese
                                > Paintings will have noticed the fact that openings in the side of
                                > Hakama's are there.

                                Well, something was clearly misinterpreted, as Kass is
                                indeed quite an expert and definitely knows her stuff -- she
                                knows quite well the pattern and construction of early hakama.

                                > The openings in the sleeves I am referring to is the part of the top
                                > of the sleeve that doesn't get sewn all the way around. (you know whn
                                > the sleeve appears to be hanging off)

                                Ah, like in kariginu and suikan. Both garments date from the
                                Heian period, so they're quite old.

                                > This statement also makes me doubt the validity of my "freind" She has
                                > made several statements that nobody in Calontir would know if it was
                                > period or not anyway, Except maybe her. Which completly dicounts the
                                > fact that Yoshi-sama has been around and doing a Japanese persona for a
                                > LOT longer than her. (She has been around for a couple of years) And she
                                > dimisses that fact that he has a laurel and she doesn't. It makes me
                                > wonder how much she actually knows.

                                Well, I cant' speak for what she knows, or what she *thinks*
                                she heard, but if she told you both of these, she's in error
                                -- and if she attributed any of it to Kass, she's doubly so.

                                Point her to my website and have her look at the garb pages.
                                That should shut her up.



                                Effingham
                                --

                                Anthony J. Bryant
                                Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

                                Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
                                http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

                                All sorts of cool things Japanese and SCA:
                                http://www.cafepress.com/sengokudaimyo
                              • wodeford
                                ... Sysmposium. I miss that portion of the class, and my friend was filling me in on what I missed. Your friend is mistaken. I attended that class and was in
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jan 12, 2006
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                                  --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, JESSICA DODGE <kaythiarain@y...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > A part of the class in Japanese Garb, at Known World Costuming
                                  Sysmposium. I miss that portion of the class, and my friend was
                                  filling me in on what I missed.

                                  Your friend is mistaken. I attended that class and was in my right
                                  mind and stone cold sober at the time.

                                  Show her this:
                                  http://www.wodefordhall.com/paddle2.jpg is a detail from a 16th
                                  century screen in the Tokyo National Museum. (It's described as "Genre
                                  Scenes of the Twelve Months," and you can find the whole series of
                                  paintings on the screen at
                                  http://www.tnm.go.jp/en/gallery/type/painting.html under "Early Modern
                                  Screens." The male figures are wearing kosode and hakama and the side
                                  openings are quite obvious. In the same menu is another painting from
                                  the same period called "Maple Viewers" with some good depictions of
                                  men in kataginu, kosode and hakama as well.

                                  > The openings in the sleeves I am referring to is the part of the
                                  top of the sleeve that doesn't get sewn all the way around. (you know
                                  whn the sleeve appears to be hanging off).

                                  This is a feature of certain men's court garments, as Effingham-sensei
                                  just mentioned - which are NOT kimono. Kimono is a 19th century word,
                                  therefore, kimono are not period. The correct term is kosode and
                                  kosode do not have the same type of sleeve attachment as men's
                                  kariginu or suikan.

                                  This image is from a 12th century picture scroll of The Tale of Genji,
                                  (Tokugawa Art Museum).
                                  http://w00.middlebury.edu/ID085A/gallery/intro/genji049.jpg The figure
                                  seated with his back against the pillar shows a darker undergarment
                                  peeping out of his sleeve slit - it's a weird angle, but it's one of
                                  the earliest artistic depictions of the style I can think of right now.

                                  http://www.tnm.jp/gallery/search/images/max/C0008550.jpg is from a
                                  Kamakura period scroll Heiji Monogatari Emaki (illustrated stories
                                  about Heiji Civil War)- see the guy standing next to the ox in the
                                  green - you can see the sleeve slit very clearly.

                                  Can you tell I love the Tokyo National Museum?

                                  Saionji no Hanae, West Kingdom
                                • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                                  ... Regarding the hakama: Were nagabakama being discussed? If Kass was giving the class and discussing nagabakama (the long, formal hakama worn by women)
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jan 13, 2006
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                                    On 1/13/06, wodeford <wodeford@...> wrote:
                                    > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, JESSICA DODGE <kaythiarain@y...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > A part of the class in Japanese Garb, at Known World Costuming
                                    > Sysmposium. I miss that portion of the class, and my friend was
                                    > filling me in on what I missed.
                                    >
                                    > Your friend is mistaken. I attended that class and was in my right
                                    > mind and stone cold sober at the time.

                                    Regarding the hakama: Were nagabakama being discussed? If Kass was
                                    giving the class and discussing nagabakama (the long, formal hakama
                                    worn by women) then the side opening is not very pronounced (if
                                    evident--but I was pretty sure there was a little one on both sides).
                                    Otherwise, the 'non-period' part of modern hakama seems to be the
                                    length--most pictures I've seen actually has a longer opening than
                                    modern hakama (going to just above the knee or so). However, there
                                    were many different styles of hakama/poofy trouser things (uwabakama,
                                    nagabakama, ooguchi, sashinuki).

                                    > > The openings in the sleeves I am referring to is the part of the
                                    > top of the sleeve that doesn't get sewn all the way around. (you know
                                    > whn the sleeve appears to be hanging off).
                                    >
                                    > This is a feature of certain men's court garments, as Effingham-sensei
                                    > just mentioned - which are NOT kimono. Kimono is a 19th century word,
                                    > therefore, kimono are not period. The correct term is kosode and
                                    > kosode do not have the same type of sleeve attachment as men's
                                    > kariginu or suikan.

                                    There are some late period scrolls of people in what appear to be
                                    fancy outer kosode (or short-sleeved hitatare) where the sleeve
                                    appears to dangle, but apparently the kosode as an under-garment (its
                                    main function until the Edo period, it would seem) is fully attached.

                                    Another word on hakama: Kiritsubo-hime mentions the 'koshi-ita'--we
                                    have found evidence of at least a decorated 'back panel' on some late
                                    (latter 16th century) hakama, but it is unclear if they have any kind
                                    of board to keep it stiff or is just the way the back is folded and
                                    tied (what we do see, however, is that it is not universal and I have
                                    not yet seen it earlier than 'Saru no Soshi' (http://tinyurl.com/dqtuh
                                    [see below for the full URL]), for sure.

                                    And, of course, the knowledge base is always growing, so if there is
                                    'common knowledge' out there that is wrong, by all means, expose it!


                                    -Ii

                                    Saru no Soshi: http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/compass/ixbin/hixclient.exe?_IXDB_=compass&_IXFIRST_=1&_IXMAXHITS_=1&_IXSPFX_=../compass/graphical/full/&$+with+all_unique_id_index+is+$=OBJ275&submit-button=summary
                                  • Elaine Koogler
                                    ... Well, in this case, you do have plenty of things to back up what you are saying. Firstly, there are the Web sites and other information that you can get
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jan 13, 2006
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                                      JESSICA DODGE wrote:

                                      > A part of the class in Japanese Garb, at Known World Costuming
                                      > Sysmposium. I miss that portion of the class, and my friend was
                                      > filling me in on what I missed. The class was Taught By Cass McCann.
                                      > She is suppossed to be a leader in her field. Now, either my friend is
                                      > mistaken, (which I beleive is the case) Or Cass McCann isn't quite the
                                      > leader she claims. Anybody who has even lightly peared at Japanese
                                      > Paintings will have noticed the fact that openings in the side of
                                      > Hakama's are there.
                                      >
                                      > The openings in the sleeves I am referring to is the part of the top
                                      > of the sleeve that doesn't get sewn all the way around. (you know whn
                                      > the sleeve appears to be hanging off)
                                      >
                                      > This statement also makes me doubt the validity of my "freind" She
                                      > has made several statements that nobody in Calontir would know if it
                                      > was period or not anyway, Except maybe her. Which completly dicounts
                                      > the fact that Yoshi-sama has been around and doing a Japanese persona
                                      > for a LOT longer than her. (She has been around for a couple of years)
                                      > And she dimisses that fact that he has a laurel and she doesn't. It
                                      > makes me wonder how much she actually knows.
                                      >
                                      > This isn't the first time that she has misdirected me, (or stabbed
                                      > me in the back) That is why I am asking now. Becuase This statement,
                                      > well as you put it "HAs my smell-o-meter going off" I want more than
                                      > one person "dimeing her out" so to speak.
                                      > Unfortunatly, in my shire, I could say the sky is blue, and nobody
                                      > would believe me. If I have other sources to correct her, maybe she
                                      > (and others) will take me a little more seriously. I am frankly tires
                                      > of being thier reseach joke.
                                      >
                                      > Sorry! This wasn't meant to be a rant! I am a littled flustered. But
                                      > This time AI want to arm my self with some sources that aren't so
                                      > easliy dismissed.
                                      > Thanks Bunches!!
                                      > Hotaru
                                      >
                                      Well, in this case, you do have plenty of things to back up what you are
                                      saying. Firstly, there are the Web sites and other information that you
                                      can get from the JML yahoogroups site...information from Master Edward,
                                      Ii-dono, Lady Solveig, Date-dono and the other very knowledgeable folk
                                      on this list. Secondly, there are several Web sites, including Kass'
                                      site, where she has information that supports what you say! Finally,
                                      there is the evidence to be found in wonderful primary sources, namely
                                      paintings from the period, where you can see garment construction (you
                                      may have to look a little closely, but it's there!!)

                                      Finally, don't worry so much about what others say. Go with what your
                                      own research and observations tell you. Trust me when I tell you that
                                      many of us have had to fight similar battles over the years...and with a
                                      lot less support available. So go for it and ignore what your "friend"
                                      is saying.

                                      Kiri
                                    • Solveig Throndardottir
                                      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Several things may be going on here. One of course is you have to take the personalities of individuals into account.
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Jan 13, 2006
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                                        Noble Cousin!

                                        Greetings from Solveig! Several things may be going on here. One of
                                        course is you have to take the personalities of individuals into
                                        account. Another is that you really need to take the teaching
                                        environment into account. A distinguished mathematics professor once
                                        told me "your problem is that you don't lie." He went on to explain
                                        that you always have to "lie" when teaching. He meant that in order to
                                        convey your central point, you have to leave out parts of the truth or
                                        even simplify things in ways which may not be quite true. Anyone
                                        teaching a class on Japanese clothing to a general audience is going to
                                        first try to convince people that premodern Japanese clothing is
                                        different from modern clothing. Having someone else take notes in your
                                        absence makes life even more difficult as your friend is quite likely
                                        precisely the sort of person for whom such "dispelling of myths" is
                                        intended. Further, it turns the exercise into a game of "telephone"
                                        with predictably unreliable results.

                                        > Anybody who has even lightly peared at Japanese Paintings will have
                                        > noticed the fact that openings in the side of Hakama's are there.

                                        They are also in the patterns published in the nuikata book. I suspect
                                        that there may have been a major piece of miscommunication going on
                                        here. Or, it is possible that this is an area where the instructor is
                                        less up on things. You need to understand that knowledge of premodern
                                        Japan is not something dispensed in standardized form har Sinai in
                                        1966. It is something that we all collectively build up over time.
                                        There was a raging argument here a few years back about where premodern
                                        people tied their obii/himo. The results of that discussion are still
                                        filtering their way out into the Society.

                                        > The openings in the sleeves I am referring to is the part of the top
                                        > of the sleeve that doesn't get sewn all the way around. (you know whn
                                        > the sleeve appears to be hanging off)

                                        Sleave attachment varies a lot for specific garments. It is generally
                                        believed that most if not all premodern kosode sleaves were completely
                                        attached. However, there are other premodern garments with partially
                                        attached sleaves. The pocket sleaves of modern kimono and yukata are
                                        generally believed to be modern or at least pretty recent. The person
                                        giiving the talk attended for you by your friend specializes in female
                                        clothing of the Heian period which ended about 800 years ago.

                                        > This statement also makes me doubt the validity of my "freind" She
                                        > has made several statements that nobody in Calontir would know if it
                                        > was period or not anyway, Except maybe her. Which completly dicounts
                                        > the fact that Yoshi-sama has been around and doing a Japanese persona
                                        > for a LOT longer than her. (She has been around for a couple of years)
                                        > And she dimisses that fact that he has a laurel and she doesn't. It
                                        > makes me wonder how much she actually knows.

                                        I have been in the Society since AS XI and have been interested in
                                        Japan even longer. I can most emphatically assure you that having or
                                        not having a laurel is no indication of relative knowledge about Japan
                                        or practically anything else in the Society. Laurels are not given to
                                        people in such a way that would accomplish that end. For that matter,
                                        even orders of high merit get bogged down in discussions which have
                                        nothing to do with knowledge or accomplishment. If somebody knows
                                        something, they can generally tell you why they know it and how they
                                        found it out with a fair amount of specifics. In contrast, I was
                                        encountered a dance teacher who was teaching the finer points of dance
                                        for which she claimed to be working from period sources. The only
                                        problem is that the dance in question was choreographed in Boston by
                                        Ingrid Brainard who was a professor of pemodern dance at the New
                                        England Conservatory and brought into the Society by Baron Patri who
                                        was a member of Dr. Brainard's Cambridge Court Dancers. The SCA dance
                                        expert's fine points were of course different from the way in which
                                        Baron Patri performs the dance.

                                        Please do not pause to think that intellectual fraud is unique to the
                                        Society. It is practiced in professional circles as well. Generally
                                        speaking, do not believe a result if it is first brought to light
                                        through a press conference.

                                        > Unfortunatly, in my shire, I could say the sky is blue, and nobody
                                        > would believe me. If I have other sources to correct her, maybe she
                                        > (and others) will take me a little more seriously. I am frankly tires
                                        > of being thier reseach joke.

                                        I'm sorry to hear that you are in the outs with your shire. That makes
                                        life hard. Regardless, it sounds like you have problems with one
                                        specific person. Please do not let that turn you off to talking to
                                        other people and possibly learning from them.

                                        Your Humble Servant
                                        Solveig Throndardottir
                                        Amateur Scholar

                                        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                        | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                        | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                                        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                        | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                                        | the trash by my email filters. |
                                        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Solveig Throndardottir
                                        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Thank you for the citation. That makes it possible for others to check out the pictures. Now then, while people go
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Jan 13, 2006
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                                          Noble Cousin!

                                          Greetings from Solveig! Thank you for the citation. That makes it
                                          possible for others to check out the pictures. Now then, while people
                                          go scurrying around trying to take a look at the pictures, can you tell
                                          us where the pictures originated. That is, are they modern
                                          illustrations or are they museum pieces? When and by whom were they
                                          painted? Books on Japanese warfare rather frequently mix the historical
                                          and modern illustrations together. Also, what sort of woman is
                                          depicted? If she is a peasant, she was most likely wearing monpe or
                                          some anticedent thereof and not hakama. If she is fleeing a battle
                                          outside of town, she is most likely a peasant and not a court lady or
                                          even a member of the kuge class.

                                          Your Humble Servant
                                          Solveig Throndardottir
                                          Amateur Scholar

                                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                          | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                          | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                          | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                                          | the trash by my email filters. |
                                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • JESSICA DODGE
                                          The peices are from museums and are not modern drawings. In fact all the pieces in the book are from the fourteenth century. The lady fleeing the battle field
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Jan 13, 2006
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                                            The peices are from museums and are not modern drawings. In fact all the pieces in the book are from the fourteenth century.

                                            The lady fleeing the battle field I belive is a close up of a much larger piece. I would have to go back into the book later and get further detail. Right noow, I am last minute checking my email before heading off to the Vatvaian winter event.
                                            Hotaru

                                            Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
                                            Noble Cousin!

                                            Greetings from Solveig! Thank you for the citation. That makes it
                                            possible for others to check out the pictures. Now then, while people
                                            go scurrying around trying to take a look at the pictures, can you tell
                                            us where the pictures originated. That is, are they modern
                                            illustrations or are they museum pieces? When and by whom were they
                                            painted? Books on Japanese warfare rather frequently mix the historical
                                            and modern illustrations together. Also, what sort of woman is
                                            depicted? If she is a peasant, she was most likely wearing monpe or
                                            some anticedent thereof and not hakama. If she is fleeing a battle
                                            outside of town, she is most likely a peasant and not a court lady or
                                            even a member of the kuge class.

                                            Your Humble Servant
                                            Solveig Throndardottir
                                            Amateur Scholar

                                            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                            | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                            | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                            | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                                            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                            | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                                            | the trash by my email filters. |
                                            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


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                                          • Jennifer Kobayashi
                                            ... Speaking as a member of the group mentioned (yes, a laurel), I will point out that laurels are generally given for extensive research and work in or about
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Jan 13, 2006
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                                              --- Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:


                                              > I can most emphatically assure
                                              > you that having or
                                              > not having a laurel is no indication of relative
                                              > knowledge about Japan
                                              > or practically anything else in the Society. Laurels
                                              > are not given to
                                              > people in such a way that would accomplish that end.

                                              Speaking as a member of the group mentioned (yes, a
                                              laurel), I will point out that laurels are generally
                                              given for extensive research and work in or about
                                              something that contributes to the arts and sciences of
                                              the SCA, but that awarding a laurel certainly does not
                                              give someone infallibility, knowledge of all subjects,
                                              or even complete knowledge of the field the laurel is
                                              awarded for. This is something that the recipients and
                                              the general SCA population have been known to forget.

                                              My laurel happens to be for performing arts. Does that
                                              mean I know everything about every period performing
                                              art around the world? Certainly not. I don't even know
                                              everything about liturgical drama, ballets de cour,
                                              Shakespeare, Elizabethan music, or commedia del'arte -
                                              all of which I have performed and done a fair amount
                                              of research about. I can't tell you how many times I
                                              have been asked to evaluate brews, clothing, jewelry
                                              or armor because "You are a laurel." Even if I
                                              politely decline because it is not my area of
                                              expertise it can be viewed as being stuck up or
                                              snooty. But I digress.

                                              Hopefully, laurels, like others in the SCA, continue
                                              to learn and pick up new fields of study or discover
                                              new things. We are beginners in the new things, just
                                              like everyone else and make mistakes. And sometimes a
                                              mistaken idea someone else has about our work gets
                                              taught as "our" research. So I would view cautiously
                                              anything you find being taught that conflicts with
                                              your own personal research (especially if you received
                                              the information second hand). You may want to find an
                                              opportunity to discuss it with the teacher personally
                                              - usually it turns out to be a misunderstanding or a
                                              statement that is interpreted more sweepingly than
                                              intended.

                                              Ki no Izmui aka Mistress Gwendolyn of Middlemarch

                                              - Jennifer

                                              __________________________________________________
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                                            • Elaine Koogler
                                              ... In truth, there are those of us who have received their Laurels in whole or in part for their research and study of the Japanese culture. I know Master
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Jan 13, 2006
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                                                Jennifer Kobayashi wrote:

                                                > --- Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > > I can most emphatically assure
                                                > > you that having or
                                                > > not having a laurel is no indication of relative
                                                > > knowledge about Japan
                                                > > or practically anything else in the Society. Laurels
                                                > > are not given to
                                                > > people in such a way that would accomplish that end.
                                                >
                                                > Speaking as a member of the group mentioned (yes, a
                                                > laurel), I will point out that laurels are generally
                                                > given for extensive research and work in or about
                                                > something that contributes to the arts and sciences of
                                                > the SCA, but that awarding a laurel certainly does not
                                                > give someone infallibility, knowledge of all subjects,
                                                > or even complete knowledge of the field the laurel is
                                                > awarded for. This is something that the recipients and
                                                > the general SCA population have been known to forget.
                                                >
                                                > My laurel happens to be for performing arts. Does that
                                                > mean I know everything about every period performing
                                                > art around the world? Certainly not. I don't even know
                                                > everything about liturgical drama, ballets de cour,
                                                > Shakespeare, Elizabethan music, or commedia del'arte -
                                                > all of which I have performed and done a fair amount
                                                > of research about. I can't tell you how many times I
                                                > have been asked to evaluate brews, clothing, jewelry
                                                > or armor because "You are a laurel." Even if I
                                                > politely decline because it is not my area of
                                                > expertise it can be viewed as being stuck up or
                                                > snooty. But I digress.
                                                >
                                                > Hopefully, laurels, like others in the SCA, continue
                                                > to learn and pick up new fields of study or discover
                                                > new things. We are beginners in the new things, just
                                                > like everyone else and make mistakes. And sometimes a
                                                > mistaken idea someone else has about our work gets
                                                > taught as "our" research. So I would view cautiously
                                                > anything you find being taught that conflicts with
                                                > your own personal research (especially if you received
                                                > the information second hand). You may want to find an
                                                > opportunity to discuss it with the teacher personally
                                                > - usually it turns out to be a misunderstanding or a
                                                > statement that is interpreted more sweepingly than
                                                > intended.
                                                >
                                                > Ki no Izmui aka Mistress Gwendolyn of Middlemarch
                                                >
                                                > - Jennifer
                                                >
                                                In truth, there are those of us who have received their Laurels in whole
                                                or in part for their research and study of the Japanese culture. I know
                                                Master Edward has his for this, and mine is partially for that (other
                                                half for cooking). So, while this doesn't mean that we are experts in
                                                our field (I always worry about being called an expert anyway...too many
                                                people I know who claim to be expert in something have an overinflated
                                                opinion of themselves), it does mean that our work has been recognized
                                                and rewarded.

                                                Kiri
                                              • Jennifer Kobayashi
                                                ... As it should be. Ki no Izumi __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Jan 13, 2006
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                                                  --- Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1@...> wrote:

                                                  > So, while this doesn't mean that
                                                  > we are experts in
                                                  > our field (I always worry about being called an
                                                  > expert anyway...too many
                                                  > people I know who claim to be expert in something
                                                  > have an overinflated
                                                  > opinion of themselves), it does mean that our work
                                                  > has been recognized
                                                  > and rewarded.
                                                  >
                                                  As it should be.

                                                  Ki no Izumi

                                                  __________________________________________________
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                                                  Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                                  http://mail.yahoo.com
                                                • Solveig Throndardottir
                                                  Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! The point is that the research should speak for itself. Your Humble Servant Solveig Throndardottir Amateur Scholar
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Jan 13, 2006
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                                                    Noble Cousin!

                                                    Greetings from Solveig! The point is that the research should speak for
                                                    itself.

                                                    Your Humble Servant
                                                    Solveig Throndardottir
                                                    Amateur Scholar

                                                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                                    | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                                    | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                                    | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                                                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                                    | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                                                    | the trash by my email filters. |
                                                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


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