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Re: [SCA-JML] Fwd: Seeking Japanese Heraldry Info/ help

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  • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
    ... They are also a respected part of the japanese comunity in Hawaii and the ... Any futher information on your sources? Internet sites
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 22, 2005
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      On 12/22/05, chris hansen <chrish19572003@...> wrote:

      > Greetings,
      > I would beg most respectfully to differ with you.
      > My reaserch is that Suenaga were among earliest retainers Hojo. One of
      > thier members played a proinent role agianst the mongol invasion in 1274 and
      > was on the battlefield during the second invasion.


      <snipped for brevity>

      They are also a respected part of the japanese comunity in Hawaii and the
      > San Fracisco area. During the second world war the head of the Clan who at
      > that time was a resident of Hawaii was interred in southern Colorado for the
      > duration of the war in protest he has refused to speak english since 1942.


      Any futher information on your sources? Internet sites or particular
      books? It sounds like you've done quite a bit of research on the subject.

      I did find a Suenaga in the 13th century who commissioned the Mongol
      Invasion scrolls. The use of 'clan' can be misleading. E.g. 'Clan' as in
      Minamoto and Taira or as in any family group (e.g. the Hojo, who were a
      cadet family of the Taira, and often called 'Taira' when referred to in the
      Taiheiki). Was this fellow actually the head of a recognized uji, or simply
      the head of the Suenaga family that had come over from Japan?

      -Joshua B.


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Anthony Bryant
      ... I hate to tell you this, but Takezaki Suenaga was not a Suenaga. In his case, Suenaga was his given name, not his surname. There is no familial
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 22, 2005
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        chris hansen wrote:
        > Greetings,
        > I would beg most respectfully to differ with you.
        > My reaserch is that Suenaga were among earliest retainers Hojo. One of
        > thier members played a proinent role agianst the mongol invasion in 1274
        > and was on the battlefield during the second invasion.

        I hate to tell you this, but Takezaki Suenaga was not "a
        Suenaga." In his case, "Suenaga" was his given name, not his
        surname. There is no familial connection.

        It's that simple. No connection.

        > They then
        > disapear from readily availible liturature for 200 years. Reapearing as
        > the holders of Noda Castle in Mikawa during the first half of the 16th
        > century although they had lost control of it by the time it was besieged
        > by Takeda Shingen.

        That may be possible, but of the 8,000 odd entries in the
        Sengoku Jinmei Jiten, only TWO people with that surname
        appear -- neither of them down in central Honshu. The ones
        who DO appear were vassals of the Kasai, who governed Mutsu
        for a few centuries (until the Date came along <G>).

        > there is also a refence to them holding another
        > fortress prior to thier occupation of Noda Castle

        Well, I can't find any references here or online for a
        Suenaga as joshu of Noda castle. The only time "Suenaga"
        shows up with "Noda castle" in my searches shows a modern
        author named Suenaga Katsusuke whose book happens to be
        mentioned somewhere on the same page as Noda Castle has a
        mention. And it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the
        castle.

        Noda was a small castle, with a garrison size of about 400
        samurai, and was held by the Imagawa before the Tokugawa
        (who held it during Shingen's failed assault of 1573).
        Though either the Imagawa or Tokugawa *may* have assigned
        someone named Sunenaga to be the garrison commander, there's
        no indication in *my* records -- or that I can find -- that
        the castle was held by anyone with that name.During
        Shingen's assault, the garrison commander was Suganuma
        Sadamitsu, aided by Matsudaira Tadamasa. Suganuma was put
        into that position in 1561.

        I've just looked over a dozen histories of Noda, and none
        mentioned the name Suenaga. It was built first by Suganuma
        Sadanori (possibly read Sadatoki; the grandfather of
        Sadamitsu) in 1505-08 -- so it seems to have been in
        Suganuma hands through their vassalage to the Imagawa
        through their tenure under the Tokugawa. No Suenagas.

        Barring any clearer documentation, it seems you were given
        some erroneous data.


        >In the modern era they
        > are a promienent family in Japan with many members in teaching in
        > higher education and at least one B movie actress (Haruka).

        I haven't verified this, but the chance that she's really a
        Suenaga are about 1 out of 100. Japanese entertainers almost
        *always* take a stage name -- especially if they're "boin
        tarento."

        > They are
        > also a respected part of the japanese comunity in Hawaii and the San
        > Fracisco area. During the second world war the head of the Clan who at
        > that time was a resident of Hawaii was interred in southern Colorado for
        > the duration of the war in protest he has refused to speak english since
        > 1942.

        Well, I can't speak to any of this -- but for the record,
        you're talking about a household, a family, not a clan. The
        Suenaga -- such as they may have been -- were never so
        mighty or numerous to rank "clan" status, as at all periods
        the families bearing that surname (such as they existed at
        all) were vassal houses of apparently second- or third-rate
        lords in the first place.

        The only two I can find any reference to as having any
        authority were in the mid 16th century under the Kisai, and
        though one was a garrison commander he was also implicated
        in the plot to assassinate his lord during battle with a
        rival lord. Sorry, but in all family histories there may be
        found a horse-thief; but in this case, this is the only
        person of note in Sengoku history (apparently) to have had
        that surname.


        Effingham
        --

        Anthony J. Bryant
        Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

        Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
        http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

        All sorts of cool things Japanese and SCA:
        http://www.cafepress.com/sengokudaimyo
      • Anthony Bryant
        ... The Suenaga here was Takezaki Suenaga -- he was from the Takezaki family, not the Suenaga family. Effingham -- Anthony J. Bryant Website:
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 22, 2005
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          Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.) wrote:

          > I did find a Suenaga in the 13th century who commissioned the Mongol
          > Invasion scrolls. The use of 'clan' can be misleading. E.g. 'Clan' as in
          > Minamoto and Taira or as in any family group (e.g. the Hojo, who were a
          > cadet family of the Taira, and often called 'Taira' when referred to in the
          > Taiheiki). Was this fellow actually the head of a recognized uji, or simply
          > the head of the Suenaga family that had come over from Japan?

          The Suenaga here was Takezaki Suenaga -- he was from the
          Takezaki family, not the Suenaga family.



          Effingham

          --

          Anthony J. Bryant
          Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

          Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
          http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

          All sorts of cool things Japanese and SCA:
          http://www.cafepress.com/sengokudaimyo
        • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
          ... Okay, that makes sense.... sigh--I hate the ambiguities of name order in English translations. I m wondering if it wouldn t be better to adopt the
          Message 4 of 12 , Dec 23, 2005
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            On 12/22/05, Anthony Bryant <anthony_bryant@...> wrote:
            >
            > The Suenaga here was Takezaki Suenaga -- he was from the
            > Takezaki family, not the Suenaga family.
            >
            Okay, that makes sense.... sigh--I hate the ambiguities of name order
            in English translations. I'm wondering if it wouldn't be better to
            adopt the practice of always entering the surname in CAPS... but then
            how do you deal with Family v. Clan name, etc.... Arrrggghhh!

            -Ii
          • Solveig Throndardottir
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! As I wrote, while there may be a Suenaga family (and it really isn t all that prominent or it would have showed up in one
            Message 5 of 12 , Dec 24, 2005
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              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig! As I wrote, while there may be a Suenaga family
              (and it really isn't all that prominent or it would have showed up in
              one of the sources I cited), it is almost certainly not a clan. You
              really have to try to understand that creation of real clans was
              controlled by the emperor after about 700 CE. A clan is a larger
              kinship group than a family and usually members of a clan have family
              names which are different from the clan name. For example, you might
              have a family name of Tanaka and belong to the Fujiwara clan. If you
              are really certain that the ancestors of the person in question
              possessed a castle, then you should try looking up the history of the
              castle in question. Another possibility is that if they were around for
              the battle of sekigahara, then you can try looking them up in
              "Sekigahara Kasen ni Manabu" which has the kamon for each of the big
              wigs which showed up for that battle. If the Suenaga were retainers of
              the Hojo, then they were most likely NOT a clan they were a family. One
              thing that can confuse you is that families often had heads. Finally,
              if you want someone to try looking up the Suenaga for you, then you
              have to give the exact kanji representation of the name as there are at
              least two common variants.

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar

              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
              | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
              | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
              | the trash by my email filters. |
              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Solveig Throndardottir
              Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! I too have a copy of Sengoku Jinmei Jiten, and Baron Edward is right. There are only two Suenaga. They appear to have
              Message 6 of 12 , Dec 24, 2005
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                Noble Cousin!

                Greetings from Solveig! I too have a copy of Sengoku Jinmei Jiten, and
                Baron Edward is right. There are only two Suenaga. They appear to have
                been a father/son pair, and were never particularly distinguished. The
                elder Suenaga was the master of a very small castle (apparently a
                fortified temple) for a while, but not the one you wrote about.
                Further, it is somewhat unlikely that your friend's family can
                definitively trace their ancestry to this pair. You need to understand
                that the majority of Japanese family names only date to the nineteenth
                century. Although, if I were picking a family name in the nineteenth
                century, I might have invented more illustrious ancestors. If you have
                substantial research about the ancestry of this family, then please
                share it with us citing sources. Then, perhaps, someone here can be of
                greater assistance.

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar

                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                | the trash by my email filters. |
                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Solveig Throndardottir
                Ii dono! Greetings from Solveig! You are unlikely to have name order problems in Japanese sources. There is a lot of problem with names in English sources.
                Message 7 of 12 , Dec 24, 2005
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                  Ii dono!

                  Greetings from Solveig! You are unlikely to have name order problems in
                  Japanese sources. There is a lot of problem with names in English
                  sources. Generally, the preface or introduction will tell you how they
                  are treating names. Some writers even prefer to put family name last
                  for Meiji era and later Japanese with family name first for pre-Meiji
                  Japanese. This can be particularly confusing when they write about
                  people whose public lives overlap 1868. Usually, only rather popular
                  texts will give the family name of premodern Japanese last. As for all
                  in captials. You can try taking that up with the editors of Monumenta
                  Nipponica and the Journal of Asian Studies, but I doubt that editors of
                  popular texts will pay any attention at all.

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar

                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                  | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                  | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                  | the trash by my email filters. |
                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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