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Re: [SCA-JML] Fwd: Seeking Japanese Heraldry Info/ help

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  • chris hansen
    Greetings, I would beg most respectfully to differ with you. My reaserch is that Suenaga were among earliest retainers Hojo. One of thier members played a
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 22, 2005
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      Greetings,
      I would beg most respectfully to differ with you.
      My reaserch is that Suenaga were among earliest retainers Hojo. One of thier members played a proinent role agianst the mongol invasion in 1274 and was on the battlefield during the second invasion. They then disapear from readily availible liturature for 200 years. Reapearing as the holders of Noda Castle in Mikawa during the first half of the 16th century although they had lost control of it by the time it was besieged by Takeda Shingen. there is also a refence to them holding another fortress prior to thier occupation of Noda Castle In the modern era they are a promienent family in Japan with many members in teaching in higher education and at least one B movie actress (Haruka). They are also a respected part of the japanese comunity in Hawaii and the San Fracisco area. During the second world war the head of the Clan who at that time was a resident of Hawaii was interred in southern Colorado for the duration of the war in protest he has refused to speak english since 1942.

      Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
      Noble Cousin!

      Greetings from Solveig!

      > I need to find what the family KAMON (individual family crest) is
      > for the SUENAGA Clan. A good friend of mine is a part of that family
      > and I want to make a banner for her as a surprise gift. THat she could
      > hang on the wall at home or fly in camp at events.

      To the best of my knowledge, there was no Suenaga clan. I assume that
      this person is of Japanese descent and there is a Suenaga family. There
      is a Suenaga nanori (official given name) in NCMJ, but I do not know of
      a record of a premodern Suenaga family. Neither does an entry for
      Suenaga show up in Daijirin, so even if there is a Suenaga family, they
      are not particularly famous. Further, I can not immediately find a
      candidate for a Suenaga family name in a SHARP PA 8500, so it is not
      likely to be very numerous either.

      As for kamon. You should understand that there is in general no
      correspondence between either family lname or kamon. That is, if you
      look up a particular kamon in a kamon dictionary which I have, you will
      find a list of uji (clans) with families listed under them which used
      that particular kamon. But, these same family names will show up
      elsewhere in the dictionary. Some family names may have a single entry,
      but in general you should not expect this.

      Finally, you should realize that during the Meiji Period (1868-1912),
      all Japanese families received the right to have a kamon and they went
      off and got them picking them out of kamon catalogues published by
      places like the Matsuya Piece Goods Store.

      Your Humble Servant
      Solveig Throndardottir
      Amateur Scholar

      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
      | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
      | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
      | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
      | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
      | the trash by my email filters. |
      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


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    • Anthony Bryant
      ... Agreed. I think people overuse the word clan -- especially in a Japanese context -- far too much. The Sengoku Jinmei Jiten only lists two people with the
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 22, 2005
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        Solveig Throndardottir wrote:
        > Noble Cousin!
        >
        > Greetings from Solveig!
        >
        > > I need to find what the family KAMON (individual family crest) is
        > > for the SUENAGA Clan. A good friend of mine is a part of that family
        > > and I want to make a banner for her as a surprise gift. THat she could
        > > hang on the wall at home or fly in camp at events.
        >
        > To the best of my knowledge, there was no Suenaga clan.

        Agreed. I think people overuse the word "clan" -- especially
        in a Japanese context -- far too much.

        The Sengoku Jinmei Jiten only lists two people with the
        [extremely rare] surname Suenaga:

        Suenaga Kiyotsugu (?-1590). Retainer of the Oshu Kasai
        family. Son of Munetoki. Killed when the (lord's) clan was
        destroyed in 1590.

        Suenaga Munetoki (dates?) Retainer of the Oshu Kasai.
        Commander of the garrison of Tome District castle of
        Zen'oji. It is said that he supported Yamanouchi Sudo
        family in planning the assassination of Kasai Munekiyo.



        Effingham

        --

        Anthony J. Bryant
        Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

        Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
        http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

        All sorts of cool things Japanese and SCA:
        http://www.cafepress.com/sengokudaimyo
      • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
        ... They are also a respected part of the japanese comunity in Hawaii and the ... Any futher information on your sources? Internet sites
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 22, 2005
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          On 12/22/05, chris hansen <chrish19572003@...> wrote:

          > Greetings,
          > I would beg most respectfully to differ with you.
          > My reaserch is that Suenaga were among earliest retainers Hojo. One of
          > thier members played a proinent role agianst the mongol invasion in 1274 and
          > was on the battlefield during the second invasion.


          <snipped for brevity>

          They are also a respected part of the japanese comunity in Hawaii and the
          > San Fracisco area. During the second world war the head of the Clan who at
          > that time was a resident of Hawaii was interred in southern Colorado for the
          > duration of the war in protest he has refused to speak english since 1942.


          Any futher information on your sources? Internet sites or particular
          books? It sounds like you've done quite a bit of research on the subject.

          I did find a Suenaga in the 13th century who commissioned the Mongol
          Invasion scrolls. The use of 'clan' can be misleading. E.g. 'Clan' as in
          Minamoto and Taira or as in any family group (e.g. the Hojo, who were a
          cadet family of the Taira, and often called 'Taira' when referred to in the
          Taiheiki). Was this fellow actually the head of a recognized uji, or simply
          the head of the Suenaga family that had come over from Japan?

          -Joshua B.


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Anthony Bryant
          ... I hate to tell you this, but Takezaki Suenaga was not a Suenaga. In his case, Suenaga was his given name, not his surname. There is no familial
          Message 4 of 12 , Dec 22, 2005
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            chris hansen wrote:
            > Greetings,
            > I would beg most respectfully to differ with you.
            > My reaserch is that Suenaga were among earliest retainers Hojo. One of
            > thier members played a proinent role agianst the mongol invasion in 1274
            > and was on the battlefield during the second invasion.

            I hate to tell you this, but Takezaki Suenaga was not "a
            Suenaga." In his case, "Suenaga" was his given name, not his
            surname. There is no familial connection.

            It's that simple. No connection.

            > They then
            > disapear from readily availible liturature for 200 years. Reapearing as
            > the holders of Noda Castle in Mikawa during the first half of the 16th
            > century although they had lost control of it by the time it was besieged
            > by Takeda Shingen.

            That may be possible, but of the 8,000 odd entries in the
            Sengoku Jinmei Jiten, only TWO people with that surname
            appear -- neither of them down in central Honshu. The ones
            who DO appear were vassals of the Kasai, who governed Mutsu
            for a few centuries (until the Date came along <G>).

            > there is also a refence to them holding another
            > fortress prior to thier occupation of Noda Castle

            Well, I can't find any references here or online for a
            Suenaga as joshu of Noda castle. The only time "Suenaga"
            shows up with "Noda castle" in my searches shows a modern
            author named Suenaga Katsusuke whose book happens to be
            mentioned somewhere on the same page as Noda Castle has a
            mention. And it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the
            castle.

            Noda was a small castle, with a garrison size of about 400
            samurai, and was held by the Imagawa before the Tokugawa
            (who held it during Shingen's failed assault of 1573).
            Though either the Imagawa or Tokugawa *may* have assigned
            someone named Sunenaga to be the garrison commander, there's
            no indication in *my* records -- or that I can find -- that
            the castle was held by anyone with that name.During
            Shingen's assault, the garrison commander was Suganuma
            Sadamitsu, aided by Matsudaira Tadamasa. Suganuma was put
            into that position in 1561.

            I've just looked over a dozen histories of Noda, and none
            mentioned the name Suenaga. It was built first by Suganuma
            Sadanori (possibly read Sadatoki; the grandfather of
            Sadamitsu) in 1505-08 -- so it seems to have been in
            Suganuma hands through their vassalage to the Imagawa
            through their tenure under the Tokugawa. No Suenagas.

            Barring any clearer documentation, it seems you were given
            some erroneous data.


            >In the modern era they
            > are a promienent family in Japan with many members in teaching in
            > higher education and at least one B movie actress (Haruka).

            I haven't verified this, but the chance that she's really a
            Suenaga are about 1 out of 100. Japanese entertainers almost
            *always* take a stage name -- especially if they're "boin
            tarento."

            > They are
            > also a respected part of the japanese comunity in Hawaii and the San
            > Fracisco area. During the second world war the head of the Clan who at
            > that time was a resident of Hawaii was interred in southern Colorado for
            > the duration of the war in protest he has refused to speak english since
            > 1942.

            Well, I can't speak to any of this -- but for the record,
            you're talking about a household, a family, not a clan. The
            Suenaga -- such as they may have been -- were never so
            mighty or numerous to rank "clan" status, as at all periods
            the families bearing that surname (such as they existed at
            all) were vassal houses of apparently second- or third-rate
            lords in the first place.

            The only two I can find any reference to as having any
            authority were in the mid 16th century under the Kisai, and
            though one was a garrison commander he was also implicated
            in the plot to assassinate his lord during battle with a
            rival lord. Sorry, but in all family histories there may be
            found a horse-thief; but in this case, this is the only
            person of note in Sengoku history (apparently) to have had
            that surname.


            Effingham
            --

            Anthony J. Bryant
            Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

            Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
            http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

            All sorts of cool things Japanese and SCA:
            http://www.cafepress.com/sengokudaimyo
          • Anthony Bryant
            ... The Suenaga here was Takezaki Suenaga -- he was from the Takezaki family, not the Suenaga family. Effingham -- Anthony J. Bryant Website:
            Message 5 of 12 , Dec 22, 2005
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              Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.) wrote:

              > I did find a Suenaga in the 13th century who commissioned the Mongol
              > Invasion scrolls. The use of 'clan' can be misleading. E.g. 'Clan' as in
              > Minamoto and Taira or as in any family group (e.g. the Hojo, who were a
              > cadet family of the Taira, and often called 'Taira' when referred to in the
              > Taiheiki). Was this fellow actually the head of a recognized uji, or simply
              > the head of the Suenaga family that had come over from Japan?

              The Suenaga here was Takezaki Suenaga -- he was from the
              Takezaki family, not the Suenaga family.



              Effingham

              --

              Anthony J. Bryant
              Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

              Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
              http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

              All sorts of cool things Japanese and SCA:
              http://www.cafepress.com/sengokudaimyo
            • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
              ... Okay, that makes sense.... sigh--I hate the ambiguities of name order in English translations. I m wondering if it wouldn t be better to adopt the
              Message 6 of 12 , Dec 23, 2005
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                On 12/22/05, Anthony Bryant <anthony_bryant@...> wrote:
                >
                > The Suenaga here was Takezaki Suenaga -- he was from the
                > Takezaki family, not the Suenaga family.
                >
                Okay, that makes sense.... sigh--I hate the ambiguities of name order
                in English translations. I'm wondering if it wouldn't be better to
                adopt the practice of always entering the surname in CAPS... but then
                how do you deal with Family v. Clan name, etc.... Arrrggghhh!

                -Ii
              • Solveig Throndardottir
                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! As I wrote, while there may be a Suenaga family (and it really isn t all that prominent or it would have showed up in one
                Message 7 of 12 , Dec 24, 2005
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                  Noble Cousin!

                  Greetings from Solveig! As I wrote, while there may be a Suenaga family
                  (and it really isn't all that prominent or it would have showed up in
                  one of the sources I cited), it is almost certainly not a clan. You
                  really have to try to understand that creation of real clans was
                  controlled by the emperor after about 700 CE. A clan is a larger
                  kinship group than a family and usually members of a clan have family
                  names which are different from the clan name. For example, you might
                  have a family name of Tanaka and belong to the Fujiwara clan. If you
                  are really certain that the ancestors of the person in question
                  possessed a castle, then you should try looking up the history of the
                  castle in question. Another possibility is that if they were around for
                  the battle of sekigahara, then you can try looking them up in
                  "Sekigahara Kasen ni Manabu" which has the kamon for each of the big
                  wigs which showed up for that battle. If the Suenaga were retainers of
                  the Hojo, then they were most likely NOT a clan they were a family. One
                  thing that can confuse you is that families often had heads. Finally,
                  if you want someone to try looking up the Suenaga for you, then you
                  have to give the exact kanji representation of the name as there are at
                  least two common variants.

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar

                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                  | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                  | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                  | the trash by my email filters. |
                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Solveig Throndardottir
                  Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! I too have a copy of Sengoku Jinmei Jiten, and Baron Edward is right. There are only two Suenaga. They appear to have
                  Message 8 of 12 , Dec 24, 2005
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                    Noble Cousin!

                    Greetings from Solveig! I too have a copy of Sengoku Jinmei Jiten, and
                    Baron Edward is right. There are only two Suenaga. They appear to have
                    been a father/son pair, and were never particularly distinguished. The
                    elder Suenaga was the master of a very small castle (apparently a
                    fortified temple) for a while, but not the one you wrote about.
                    Further, it is somewhat unlikely that your friend's family can
                    definitively trace their ancestry to this pair. You need to understand
                    that the majority of Japanese family names only date to the nineteenth
                    century. Although, if I were picking a family name in the nineteenth
                    century, I might have invented more illustrious ancestors. If you have
                    substantial research about the ancestry of this family, then please
                    share it with us citing sources. Then, perhaps, someone here can be of
                    greater assistance.

                    Your Humble Servant
                    Solveig Throndardottir
                    Amateur Scholar

                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                    | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                    | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                    | the trash by my email filters. |
                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Solveig Throndardottir
                    Ii dono! Greetings from Solveig! You are unlikely to have name order problems in Japanese sources. There is a lot of problem with names in English sources.
                    Message 9 of 12 , Dec 24, 2005
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                      Ii dono!

                      Greetings from Solveig! You are unlikely to have name order problems in
                      Japanese sources. There is a lot of problem with names in English
                      sources. Generally, the preface or introduction will tell you how they
                      are treating names. Some writers even prefer to put family name last
                      for Meiji era and later Japanese with family name first for pre-Meiji
                      Japanese. This can be particularly confusing when they write about
                      people whose public lives overlap 1868. Usually, only rather popular
                      texts will give the family name of premodern Japanese last. As for all
                      in captials. You can try taking that up with the editors of Monumenta
                      Nipponica and the Journal of Asian Studies, but I doubt that editors of
                      popular texts will pay any attention at all.

                      Your Humble Servant
                      Solveig Throndardottir
                      Amateur Scholar

                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                      | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                      | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                      | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                      | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                      | the trash by my email filters. |
                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


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