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Re: [SCA-JML] Paper folding for VERY personal adornment (Am I Period or Not?)

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  • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
    ... Well, just doing a quick online search, it appears that it is legitimate as far as later and modern practices go. The Kojiki chapter I d want to look
    Message 1 of 15 , Dec 2, 2005
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      On 12/2/05, Park McKellop <squire009@...> wrote:
      >
      > My X was given this book
      > http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1580082459/qid=1133501632/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-8159147-2546566?s=books&v=glance&n=283155by one of our very busy artisan ladies, and it claims that it (Kokigami) is
      > mentioned in the Kojiki.
      >
      > "Several passages in the Kojiki, a book of legends dating from AD 712,
      > tell of men spending "much time with fine silks and ribbons." For the more
      > complex he could make the wrapping, the longer his wife would take to unwrap
      > "the present" and the more he would be rewarded by " the pleasure of the
      > fingers undoing."
      >
      > So, is the book very well written satire, or is it legit?


      Well, just doing a quick online search, it appears that it is legitimate as
      far as later and modern practices go. The Kojiki chapter I'd want to look
      up--I'm wondering if that isn't just conjecture regarding normal tsutsumi
      (the art of wrapping--gifts, letters, etc.). At the same time, I wouldn't
      put it past the Japanese--look at their influences: you have sexual
      practices and rituals coming over with both Buddhism and Taoism. I would
      just wonder if it would really get so high a mention in the Kojiki.

      -Ii


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
      ... That is one way of doing it. Another is to slit the fabric very carefully at regular intervals just wide enough for the cords. ... The loops, if used,
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 2, 2005
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        On 12/2/05, Tim McShane <mcshanet@...> wrote:
        > Do the wrist cords of the hitatare run through loops the way a belt runs
        > through belt loops on a pair of pants?

        That is one way of doing it. Another is to slit the fabric very
        carefully at regular intervals just wide enough for the cords.

        > If so, are the loops made of the
        > same material as the hitatare, or are they the material of the wrist cords?

        The loops, if used, always seem to be the same as the hitatare--I've
        never seen solid color for the hitatare wrist cord, which you would
        see if it was the same as the cord (which should usually be some form
        of kumihimo, probably).

        > What's the proper material for the cords, and are they always white?

        Silk cords would be proper, if hard to find. You can have other
        colors, but white appears to be the main color you will find.

        > Also, does anyone have suggestions on what materials to use and how to make
        > the decorative knots over the seams on the upper part of the hitatare?

        Those knots are the same kind of cord as the sleeves, usually. To
        make the knot, you just need to do a type of figure eight--not sure
        where you could find instructions, but playing with it you could
        probably figure something out.

        > I
        > expect they're originally silk kumihimo (tough to find silk braiding 'round
        > here...); I'm sure I can find some round nylon cord, but I'd be afraid of it
        > unravelling (and can't imagine how unsightly burned ends would look in this
        > use...) Or, do the ends of the cords pass into the garment seam, and get
        > sewn up in it?

        No, they don't get sewn up into it, but there are tricks for not
        having them unravel:

        1) Tie the end in a knot. This is the easiest thing to do. Sure,
        things after the knot will unravel, but a good knot should hold for
        you.

        2) Tie a small piece of thread around the end. Basically wrap the end
        tightly for a centimeter or so, and then pull the ends together. It's
        called 'whipping', and you can see it done on rope right here:
        http://www.ropeworks.biz/archive/AwhipV.html

        -Ii
      • Ellen Badgley
        ... We have used long white shoelaces around here-- they work pretty well. If you can find a two-color flat kumihimo-type cord, that would work too. -Aine
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 2, 2005
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          > > What's the proper material for the cords, and are they always white?
          >
          > Silk cords would be proper, if hard to find. You can have other
          > colors, but white appears to be the main color you will find.

          We have used long white shoelaces around here-- they work pretty well.

          If you can find a two-color flat kumihimo-type cord, that would work too.

          -Aine
        • Tracie Ellis
          I think you can find silk cording at a craft store, perhaps a little expensive, but usable, and in different colors. And my favorite source for beading
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 2, 2005
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            I think you can find silk cording at a craft store, perhaps a little
            expensive, but usable, and in different colors. And my favorite source for
            beading materials only has silk thread on cards (probably useful for
            Kumihimo)...

            Miriel

            On 12/2/05, Ellen Badgley <flyingrat42@...> wrote:
            >
            > > > What's the proper material for the cords, and are they always white?
            > >
            > > Silk cords would be proper, if hard to find. You can have other
            > > colors, but white appears to be the main color you will find.
            >
            > We have used long white shoelaces around here-- they work pretty well.
            >
            > If you can find a two-color flat kumihimo-type cord, that would work too.
            >
            > -Aine
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          • Solveig Throndardottir
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! While the Nihongi and the Kojiki have largely the same content, the Nihongi is generally considered to be historical
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 2, 2005
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              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig! While the Nihongi and the Kojiki have largely
              the same content, the Nihongi is generally considered to be
              "historical" while the Kojiki is generally considered to be
              "religious". Regardless, both are "ligit" in the sense that neither of
              them are supposed to be satirical.

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar

              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
              | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
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            • Solveig Throndardottir
              Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... The knot is probably illustrated in the Japanese book Musubi . Your Humble Servant Solveig Throndardottir Amateur
              Message 6 of 15 , Dec 2, 2005
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                Noble Cousin!

                Greetings from Solveig!

                > Those knots are the same kind of cord as the sleeves, usually. To
                > make the knot, you just need to do a type of figure eight--not sure
                > where you could find instructions, but playing with it you could
                > probably figure something out.

                The knot is probably illustrated in the Japanese book "Musubi".

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar

                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
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              • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                I believe the question was whether or not Kokigami can actually be found referenced in the Kojiki. -Ii ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
                Message 7 of 15 , Dec 2, 2005
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                  I believe the question was whether or not 'Kokigami' can actually be found
                  referenced in the Kojiki.


                  -Ii

                  On 12/2/05, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Noble Cousin!
                  >
                  > Greetings from Solveig! While the Nihongi and the Kojiki have largely
                  > the same content, the Nihongi is generally considered to be
                  > "historical" while the Kojiki is generally considered to be
                  > "religious". Regardless, both are "ligit" in the sense that neither of
                  > them are supposed to be satirical.
                  >
                  > Your Humble Servant
                  > Solveig
                  > Throndardottir
                  > Amateur Scholar
                  >
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                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                • Solveig Throndardottir
                  Ii dono! Greetings from Solveig! ... Not only does kokigami not appear in four kogojiten that I consulted, it does not appear in Daijirin either. Neither
                  Message 8 of 15 , Dec 2, 2005
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                    Ii dono!

                    Greetings from Solveig!

                    > I believe the question was whether or not 'Kokigami' can actually be
                    > found
                    > referenced in the Kojiki.

                    Not only does "kokigami" not appear in four kogojiten that I consulted,
                    it does not appear in Daijirin either. Neither does kookigami nor
                    koukigami. So what exactly are people trying to look up?

                    Your Humble Servant
                    Solveig Throndardottir
                    Amateur Scholar

                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                    | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
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                  • Solveig Throndardottir
                    Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! There is a Kouki in the Nihongi and the Kojiki, but this refers to the establishment of the imperial line by Jinmu
                    Message 9 of 15 , Dec 2, 2005
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                      Noble Cousins!

                      Greetings from Solveig! There is a "Kouki" in the Nihongi and the
                      Kojiki, but this refers to the establishment of the imperial line by
                      Jinmu Tennou. Unless Daijirin is more prudish than I think it is,
                      Similarly, Kogorin does not appear to have heard of them. I suspect
                      that his is at least in part something that someone made up to
                      entertain North Americans. Does someone have an actual quote from the
                      Kojiki? I believe that there may be an online version of the Kojiki at
                      the University of Virginia Japanese Text Project.

                      Your Humble Servant
                      Solveig Throndardottir
                      Amateur Scholar

                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                      | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                      | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                      | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
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                    • wodeford
                      ... how to make ... Round cord (as opposed to the flat cord for the sleeves). Go to a store that stocks sewing and upholstery supplies. I bought plain white
                      Message 10 of 15 , Dec 2, 2005
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                        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)"
                        <tatsushu@g...> wrote:

                        > > Also, does anyone have suggestions on what materials to use and
                        how to make
                        > > the decorative knots over the seams on the upper part of the hitatare?

                        Round cord (as opposed to the flat cord for the sleeves). Go to a
                        store that stocks sewing and upholstery supplies. I bought plain white
                        flat cord and round cord (drapery cord!) made of cotton for my "boy
                        clothes."

                        Here's a very nice detail photo showing the shapes of the figure-8
                        knots, as well as the collar ties and sleeve ties - this is a modern
                        hitatare with slits rather than the "belt loops" sewn into the sleeves.

                        http://www.yusoku.com/hitatare-asa.jpg

                        Saionji
                      • Park McKellop
                        I wasn t questioning the legitimacy of the Kojiki, so much as whether the kokigami was legit, and whether the quote a)existed, and b)referred to kokigami.
                        Message 11 of 15 , Dec 2, 2005
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                          I wasn't questioning the legitimacy of the Kojiki, so much as whether the kokigami was legit, and whether the quote a)existed, and b)referred to kokigami.

                          Alcyoneus

                          Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
                          Noble Cousin!

                          Greetings from Solveig! While the Nihongi and the Kojiki have largely
                          the same content, the Nihongi is generally considered to be
                          "historical" while the Kojiki is generally considered to be
                          "religious". Regardless, both are "ligit" in the sense that neither of
                          them are supposed to be satirical.

                          Your Humble Servant
                          Solveig Throndardottir
                          Amateur Scholar




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                        • Tim McShane
                          Thanks to everyone who supplied such helpful responses! - Shiro [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          Message 12 of 15 , Dec 5, 2005
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                            Thanks to everyone who supplied such helpful responses!

                            - Shiro

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Sean Malloy
                            ... That method of whipping works, but it s hard to get tight. The way I learned -- and which you can find in _Ashley s Book of Knots_ is to make a long,
                            Message 13 of 15 , Dec 6, 2005
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                              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)"
                              <tatsushu@g...> wrote:
                              > 2) Tie a small piece of thread around the end. Basically wrap the end
                              > tightly for a centimeter or so, and then pull the ends together. It's
                              > called 'whipping', and you can see it done on rope right here:
                              > http://www.ropeworks.biz/archive/AwhipV.html

                              That method of whipping works, but it's hard to get tight. The way I
                              learned -- and which you can find in _Ashley's Book of Knots_ is to
                              make a long, narrow loop in the thread at one end about half-again as
                              long as the diameter of the cord, and lay it along the cord where you
                              want the whipping to go. Then, holding the two ends of the loop down,
                              you start wrapping (whipping) the cord tightly, just as the animation
                              above shows, until you've whipped about the same length as the
                              diameter of the cord. Then you put the end of the thread through the
                              loop sticking out from under the whipping, hold it tight, and pull on
                              the other end of the thread (which is sticking out from under the
                              whipping on the other end); this pulls a loop of the end you stuck
                              through the loop under the whipping, where the tight whipping will
                              hold both ends in place. Then you cut off the ends close to the whipping.
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