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Hitatare questions

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  • Tim McShane
    Do the wrist cords of the hitatare run through loops the way a belt runs through belt loops on a pair of pants? If so, are the loops made of the same material
    Message 1 of 15 , Dec 1, 2005
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      Do the wrist cords of the hitatare run through loops the way a belt runs through belt loops on a pair of pants? If so, are the loops made of the same material as the hitatare, or are they the material of the wrist cords? What's the proper material for the cords, and are they always white?

      Also, does anyone have suggestions on what materials to use and how to make the decorative knots over the seams on the upper part of the hitatare? I expect they're originally silk kumihimo (tough to find silk braiding 'round here...); I'm sure I can find some round nylon cord, but I'd be afraid of it unravelling (and can't imagine how unsightly burned ends would look in this use...) Or, do the ends of the cords pass into the garment seam, and get sewn up in it?

      Many thanks for any thoughts and suggestions on these points.

      - Shiro

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Park McKellop
      My X was given this book http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1580082459/qid=1133501632/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-8159147-2546566?s=books&v=glance&n=283155 by
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 1, 2005
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        My X was given this book http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1580082459/qid=1133501632/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-8159147-2546566?s=books&v=glance&n=283155 by one of our very busy artisan ladies, and it claims that it (Kokigami) is mentioned in the Kojiki.

        "Several passages in the Kojiki, a book of legends dating from AD 712, tell of men spending "much time with fine silks and ribbons." For the more complex he could make the wrapping, the longer his wife would take to unwrap "the present" and the more he would be rewarded by " the pleasure of the fingers undoing."

        So, is the book very well written satire, or is it legit?

        Alcyoneus


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      • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
        ... Well, just doing a quick online search, it appears that it is legitimate as far as later and modern practices go. The Kojiki chapter I d want to look
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 2, 2005
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          On 12/2/05, Park McKellop <squire009@...> wrote:
          >
          > My X was given this book
          > http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1580082459/qid=1133501632/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-8159147-2546566?s=books&v=glance&n=283155by one of our very busy artisan ladies, and it claims that it (Kokigami) is
          > mentioned in the Kojiki.
          >
          > "Several passages in the Kojiki, a book of legends dating from AD 712,
          > tell of men spending "much time with fine silks and ribbons." For the more
          > complex he could make the wrapping, the longer his wife would take to unwrap
          > "the present" and the more he would be rewarded by " the pleasure of the
          > fingers undoing."
          >
          > So, is the book very well written satire, or is it legit?


          Well, just doing a quick online search, it appears that it is legitimate as
          far as later and modern practices go. The Kojiki chapter I'd want to look
          up--I'm wondering if that isn't just conjecture regarding normal tsutsumi
          (the art of wrapping--gifts, letters, etc.). At the same time, I wouldn't
          put it past the Japanese--look at their influences: you have sexual
          practices and rituals coming over with both Buddhism and Taoism. I would
          just wonder if it would really get so high a mention in the Kojiki.

          -Ii


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
          ... That is one way of doing it. Another is to slit the fabric very carefully at regular intervals just wide enough for the cords. ... The loops, if used,
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 2, 2005
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            On 12/2/05, Tim McShane <mcshanet@...> wrote:
            > Do the wrist cords of the hitatare run through loops the way a belt runs
            > through belt loops on a pair of pants?

            That is one way of doing it. Another is to slit the fabric very
            carefully at regular intervals just wide enough for the cords.

            > If so, are the loops made of the
            > same material as the hitatare, or are they the material of the wrist cords?

            The loops, if used, always seem to be the same as the hitatare--I've
            never seen solid color for the hitatare wrist cord, which you would
            see if it was the same as the cord (which should usually be some form
            of kumihimo, probably).

            > What's the proper material for the cords, and are they always white?

            Silk cords would be proper, if hard to find. You can have other
            colors, but white appears to be the main color you will find.

            > Also, does anyone have suggestions on what materials to use and how to make
            > the decorative knots over the seams on the upper part of the hitatare?

            Those knots are the same kind of cord as the sleeves, usually. To
            make the knot, you just need to do a type of figure eight--not sure
            where you could find instructions, but playing with it you could
            probably figure something out.

            > I
            > expect they're originally silk kumihimo (tough to find silk braiding 'round
            > here...); I'm sure I can find some round nylon cord, but I'd be afraid of it
            > unravelling (and can't imagine how unsightly burned ends would look in this
            > use...) Or, do the ends of the cords pass into the garment seam, and get
            > sewn up in it?

            No, they don't get sewn up into it, but there are tricks for not
            having them unravel:

            1) Tie the end in a knot. This is the easiest thing to do. Sure,
            things after the knot will unravel, but a good knot should hold for
            you.

            2) Tie a small piece of thread around the end. Basically wrap the end
            tightly for a centimeter or so, and then pull the ends together. It's
            called 'whipping', and you can see it done on rope right here:
            http://www.ropeworks.biz/archive/AwhipV.html

            -Ii
          • Ellen Badgley
            ... We have used long white shoelaces around here-- they work pretty well. If you can find a two-color flat kumihimo-type cord, that would work too. -Aine
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 2, 2005
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              > > What's the proper material for the cords, and are they always white?
              >
              > Silk cords would be proper, if hard to find. You can have other
              > colors, but white appears to be the main color you will find.

              We have used long white shoelaces around here-- they work pretty well.

              If you can find a two-color flat kumihimo-type cord, that would work too.

              -Aine
            • Tracie Ellis
              I think you can find silk cording at a craft store, perhaps a little expensive, but usable, and in different colors. And my favorite source for beading
              Message 6 of 15 , Dec 2, 2005
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                I think you can find silk cording at a craft store, perhaps a little
                expensive, but usable, and in different colors. And my favorite source for
                beading materials only has silk thread on cards (probably useful for
                Kumihimo)...

                Miriel

                On 12/2/05, Ellen Badgley <flyingrat42@...> wrote:
                >
                > > > What's the proper material for the cords, and are they always white?
                > >
                > > Silk cords would be proper, if hard to find. You can have other
                > > colors, but white appears to be the main color you will find.
                >
                > We have used long white shoelaces around here-- they work pretty well.
                >
                > If you can find a two-color flat kumihimo-type cord, that would work too.
                >
                > -Aine
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              • Solveig Throndardottir
                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! While the Nihongi and the Kojiki have largely the same content, the Nihongi is generally considered to be historical
                Message 7 of 15 , Dec 2, 2005
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                  Noble Cousin!

                  Greetings from Solveig! While the Nihongi and the Kojiki have largely
                  the same content, the Nihongi is generally considered to be
                  "historical" while the Kojiki is generally considered to be
                  "religious". Regardless, both are "ligit" in the sense that neither of
                  them are supposed to be satirical.

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar

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                • Solveig Throndardottir
                  Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... The knot is probably illustrated in the Japanese book Musubi . Your Humble Servant Solveig Throndardottir Amateur
                  Message 8 of 15 , Dec 2, 2005
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                    Noble Cousin!

                    Greetings from Solveig!

                    > Those knots are the same kind of cord as the sleeves, usually. To
                    > make the knot, you just need to do a type of figure eight--not sure
                    > where you could find instructions, but playing with it you could
                    > probably figure something out.

                    The knot is probably illustrated in the Japanese book "Musubi".

                    Your Humble Servant
                    Solveig Throndardottir
                    Amateur Scholar

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                  • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                    I believe the question was whether or not Kokigami can actually be found referenced in the Kojiki. -Ii ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
                    Message 9 of 15 , Dec 2, 2005
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                      I believe the question was whether or not 'Kokigami' can actually be found
                      referenced in the Kojiki.


                      -Ii

                      On 12/2/05, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Noble Cousin!
                      >
                      > Greetings from Solveig! While the Nihongi and the Kojiki have largely
                      > the same content, the Nihongi is generally considered to be
                      > "historical" while the Kojiki is generally considered to be
                      > "religious". Regardless, both are "ligit" in the sense that neither of
                      > them are supposed to be satirical.
                      >
                      > Your Humble Servant
                      > Solveig
                      > Throndardottir
                      > Amateur Scholar
                      >
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                    • Solveig Throndardottir
                      Ii dono! Greetings from Solveig! ... Not only does kokigami not appear in four kogojiten that I consulted, it does not appear in Daijirin either. Neither
                      Message 10 of 15 , Dec 2, 2005
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                        Ii dono!

                        Greetings from Solveig!

                        > I believe the question was whether or not 'Kokigami' can actually be
                        > found
                        > referenced in the Kojiki.

                        Not only does "kokigami" not appear in four kogojiten that I consulted,
                        it does not appear in Daijirin either. Neither does kookigami nor
                        koukigami. So what exactly are people trying to look up?

                        Your Humble Servant
                        Solveig Throndardottir
                        Amateur Scholar

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                        | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
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                      • Solveig Throndardottir
                        Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! There is a Kouki in the Nihongi and the Kojiki, but this refers to the establishment of the imperial line by Jinmu
                        Message 11 of 15 , Dec 2, 2005
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                          Noble Cousins!

                          Greetings from Solveig! There is a "Kouki" in the Nihongi and the
                          Kojiki, but this refers to the establishment of the imperial line by
                          Jinmu Tennou. Unless Daijirin is more prudish than I think it is,
                          Similarly, Kogorin does not appear to have heard of them. I suspect
                          that his is at least in part something that someone made up to
                          entertain North Americans. Does someone have an actual quote from the
                          Kojiki? I believe that there may be an online version of the Kojiki at
                          the University of Virginia Japanese Text Project.

                          Your Humble Servant
                          Solveig Throndardottir
                          Amateur Scholar

                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                          | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
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                        • wodeford
                          ... how to make ... Round cord (as opposed to the flat cord for the sleeves). Go to a store that stocks sewing and upholstery supplies. I bought plain white
                          Message 12 of 15 , Dec 2, 2005
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                            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)"
                            <tatsushu@g...> wrote:

                            > > Also, does anyone have suggestions on what materials to use and
                            how to make
                            > > the decorative knots over the seams on the upper part of the hitatare?

                            Round cord (as opposed to the flat cord for the sleeves). Go to a
                            store that stocks sewing and upholstery supplies. I bought plain white
                            flat cord and round cord (drapery cord!) made of cotton for my "boy
                            clothes."

                            Here's a very nice detail photo showing the shapes of the figure-8
                            knots, as well as the collar ties and sleeve ties - this is a modern
                            hitatare with slits rather than the "belt loops" sewn into the sleeves.

                            http://www.yusoku.com/hitatare-asa.jpg

                            Saionji
                          • Park McKellop
                            I wasn t questioning the legitimacy of the Kojiki, so much as whether the kokigami was legit, and whether the quote a)existed, and b)referred to kokigami.
                            Message 13 of 15 , Dec 2, 2005
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                              I wasn't questioning the legitimacy of the Kojiki, so much as whether the kokigami was legit, and whether the quote a)existed, and b)referred to kokigami.

                              Alcyoneus

                              Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
                              Noble Cousin!

                              Greetings from Solveig! While the Nihongi and the Kojiki have largely
                              the same content, the Nihongi is generally considered to be
                              "historical" while the Kojiki is generally considered to be
                              "religious". Regardless, both are "ligit" in the sense that neither of
                              them are supposed to be satirical.

                              Your Humble Servant
                              Solveig Throndardottir
                              Amateur Scholar




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                            • Tim McShane
                              Thanks to everyone who supplied such helpful responses! - Shiro [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              Message 14 of 15 , Dec 5, 2005
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                                Thanks to everyone who supplied such helpful responses!

                                - Shiro

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Sean Malloy
                                ... That method of whipping works, but it s hard to get tight. The way I learned -- and which you can find in _Ashley s Book of Knots_ is to make a long,
                                Message 15 of 15 , Dec 6, 2005
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                                  --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)"
                                  <tatsushu@g...> wrote:
                                  > 2) Tie a small piece of thread around the end. Basically wrap the end
                                  > tightly for a centimeter or so, and then pull the ends together. It's
                                  > called 'whipping', and you can see it done on rope right here:
                                  > http://www.ropeworks.biz/archive/AwhipV.html

                                  That method of whipping works, but it's hard to get tight. The way I
                                  learned -- and which you can find in _Ashley's Book of Knots_ is to
                                  make a long, narrow loop in the thread at one end about half-again as
                                  long as the diameter of the cord, and lay it along the cord where you
                                  want the whipping to go. Then, holding the two ends of the loop down,
                                  you start wrapping (whipping) the cord tightly, just as the animation
                                  above shows, until you've whipped about the same length as the
                                  diameter of the cord. Then you put the end of the thread through the
                                  loop sticking out from under the whipping, hold it tight, and pull on
                                  the other end of the thread (which is sticking out from under the
                                  whipping on the other end); this pulls a loop of the end you stuck
                                  through the loop under the whipping, where the tight whipping will
                                  hold both ends in place. Then you cut off the ends close to the whipping.
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