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A few over-robe questions

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  • Yamana Hitomi
    Konichiwa! I have been reading the list for a few months and after browsing some of the wonderful files on the groups site and the links offered by the
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 12, 2005
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      Konichiwa!

      I have been reading the list for a few months and after browsing some of
      the wonderful files on the groups site and the links offered by the
      generous and helpfull people who frequent the list, I decided that the
      time is right for me to ask a few questions I havn't been able to find
      the awnser to. There are a few very nice sited with instructions on how
      to make kosode (underrobes, right?) but I haven't found anything on the
      sleeve diffrences in the hitoe. How long are they? The pictures I have
      seen inply that they are open ast both the wrist and shoulder ends of
      the sleeve, is that also the case? Also from the pictures i'm looking
      at from the costume museum, the coller (eri?) seems to be about knee
      length on the lady wearing it. I have made kosode and hakama (not the
      long ones yet though) and I would like to move forward on this project
      while I still have momentum. Again I thank all of you for the help
      you've been so far, just by your responses to other peoples questions.

      YIS,

      Yamana no Hitomi
    • wodeford
      ... Lucky for you I m doing some maintenance on my court clothing as indoor event season gets into full swing. ;- Dimensions are 16 to 16.5 panel width x
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 12, 2005
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        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Yamana Hitomi <yamana.hitomi@c...> wrote:
        > There are a few very nice sited with instructions on how
        > to make kosode (underrobes, right?) but I haven't found anything on the
        > sleeve diffrences in the hitoe. How long are they?

        Lucky for you I'm doing some "maintenance" on my court clothing as
        indoor event season gets into full swing. ;->

        Dimensions are 16 to 16.5" panel width x 30" long (folded for for 15")
        so that gives you a 16" to 16.5" sleeve length from shoulder seam to
        somewhere beyond your hand (unless you have *really* long arms). Hitoe
        and uchigi have fully open sleeves at the wrist end and are open at
        the back below the attachment seam at the shoulder. Kosode have a
        closed front seam on the sleeve front - other than that, construction
        is pretty much the same.

        > Also from the pictures i'm looking at from the costume museum, the
        coller (eri?) seems to be about knee length on the lady wearing it.

        Correct.

        Hope this helps.
        Saionji no Hanae, West Kingdom
      • Elaine Koogler
        ... Can you tell us what period you re interested in? That will make a difference so far as how the hitoe are made... Kiri
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 12, 2005
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          Yamana Hitomi wrote:

          > Konichiwa!
          >
          > I have been reading the list for a few months and after browsing some of
          > the wonderful files on the groups site and the links offered by the
          > generous and helpfull people who frequent the list, I decided that the
          > time is right for me to ask a few questions I havn't been able to find
          > the awnser to. There are a few very nice sited with instructions on how
          > to make kosode (underrobes, right?) but I haven't found anything on the
          > sleeve diffrences in the hitoe. How long are they? The pictures I have
          > seen inply that they are open ast both the wrist and shoulder ends of
          > the sleeve, is that also the case? Also from the pictures i'm looking
          > at from the costume museum, the coller (eri?) seems to be about knee
          > length on the lady wearing it. I have made kosode and hakama (not the
          > long ones yet though) and I would like to move forward on this project
          > while I still have momentum. Again I thank all of you for the help
          > you've been so far, just by your responses to other peoples questions.
          >
          > YIS,
          >
          > Yamana no Hitomi
          >
          Can you tell us what period you're interested in? That will make a
          difference so far as how the hitoe are made...

          Kiri
        • JESSICA DODGE
          Yamana-dono wrote: Also from the pictures i m looking at from the ... Hotaru asks: Should this be a rule of thumb? It would be nice to have it just to the
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 13, 2005
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            Yamana-dono wrote:

            Also from the pictures i'm looking at from the
            > costume museum, the
            > coller (eri?) seems to be about knee length on the
            > lady wearing it.

            Woeford-dodno wrote:
            > Correct.

            Hotaru asks:
            Should this be a rule of thumb? It would be nice to
            have it just to the knees.
            Hotaru Yamano

            --- wodeford <wodeford@...> wrote:

            > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Yamana Hitomi
            > <yamana.hitomi@c...> wrote:
            > > There are a few very nice sited with instructions
            > on how
            > > to make kosode (underrobes, right?) but I haven't
            > found anything on the
            > > sleeve diffrences in the hitoe. How long are
            > they?
            >
            > Lucky for you I'm doing some "maintenance" on my
            > court clothing as
            > indoor event season gets into full swing. ;->
            >
            > Dimensions are 16 to 16.5" panel width x 30" long
            > (folded for for 15")
            > so that gives you a 16" to 16.5" sleeve length from
            > shoulder seam to
            > somewhere beyond your hand (unless you have *really*
            > long arms). Hitoe
            > and uchigi have fully open sleeves at the wrist end
            > and are open at
            > the back below the attachment seam at the shoulder.
            > Kosode have a
            > closed front seam on the sleeve front - other than
            > that, construction
            > is pretty much the same.
            >
            > > Also from the pictures i'm looking at from the
            > costume museum, the
            > coller (eri?) seems to be about knee length on the
            > lady wearing it.
            >
            > Correct.
            >
            > Hope this helps.
            > Saionji no Hanae, West Kingdom
            >
            >
            >
            >





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          • wodeford
            ... I ve made them shorter (ran out of fabric and ended mine just below the waist!), but here s a screen painting from the 16th century - you can see the eri
            Message 5 of 11 , Nov 13, 2005
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              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, JESSICA DODGE <kaythiarain@y...> wrote:
              > Hotaru asks:
              > Should this be a rule of thumb? It would be nice to
              > have it just to the knees.

              I've made them shorter (ran out of fabric and ended mine just below
              the waist!), but here's a screen painting from the 16th century - you
              can see the eri ending at about that length on a number of the girls'
              outer robes.

              http://tinyurl.com/asf8j

              Saionji
            • Yamana Hitomi
              Konichiwa! ... Ah! but when I make the sleeves 15 they look really short, and I m not tall ( about 5 3 ) They look about twice as long in the pictures you
              Message 6 of 11 , Nov 13, 2005
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                Konichiwa!

                >> There are a few very nice sited with instructions on how
                >>to make kosode (underrobes, right?) but I haven't found anything on the
                >>sleeve diffrences in the hitoe. How long are they?
                >>
                >>
                >
                >Lucky for you I'm doing some "maintenance" on my court clothing as
                >indoor event season gets into full swing. ;->
                >
                >Dimensions are 16 to 16.5" panel width x 30" long (folded for for 15")
                >so that gives you a 16" to 16.5" sleeve length from shoulder seam to
                >somewhere beyond your hand (unless you have *really* long arms). Hitoe
                >and uchigi have fully open sleeves at the wrist end and are open at
                >the back below the attachment seam at the shoulder. Kosode have a
                >closed front seam on the sleeve front - other than that, construction
                >is pretty much the same.
                >
                >
                >
                >>Also from the pictures i'm looking at from the costume museum, the
                >>
                >>
                >coller (eri?) seems to be about knee length on the lady wearing it.
                >
                >Correct.
                >
                >Hope this helps.
                >Saionji no Hanae, West Kingdom
                >
                >
                >
                Ah! but when I make the sleeves 15" they look really short, and I'm not
                tall ("about 5'3") They look about twice as long in the pictures you
                have here: http://www.wodefordhall.com/display.htm hence the confusion

                >Can you tell us what period you're interested in? That will make a
                >difference so far as how the hitoe are made...
                >
                >Kiri
                >
                I waffle between Heian and Kamakura...I guess it depends on how lazy I
                am and what I have planned for the day.

                Thanks,

                Hitomi
              • wodeford
                ... Wait, is that too long or too short? And remember, the average Asian lady is closer to your size than mine (5 6 , Size 16 dresses)! Big and voluminous is
                Message 7 of 11 , Nov 13, 2005
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                  --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Yamana Hitomi <yamana.hitomi@c...> wrote:


                  > Ah! but when I make the sleeves 15" they look really short, and I'm not
                  > tall ("about 5'3") They look about twice as long in the pictures you
                  > have here: http://www.wodefordhall.com/display.htm hence the confusion

                  Wait, is that too long or too short? And remember, the average Asian
                  lady is closer to your size than mine (5'6", Size 16 dresses)! Big and
                  voluminous is the whole point of Heian styles. Conspicuous consumption
                  equals wealth and importance.

                  Have we met? I know I've met Tsurumi-hime and Yoshiaki-dono.....

                  Saionji (Makiwara)
                • Solveig Throndardottir
                  Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! kosode literally means short sleaves and generally refers to what Americans today might call a kimono . The sleave
                  Message 8 of 11 , Nov 13, 2005
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                    Noble Cousin!

                    Greetings from Solveig! "kosode" literally means "short sleaves" and
                    generally refers to what Americans today might call a "kimono". The
                    sleave shape for pre-modern kosode was a bit different than what is
                    common today. Regardless, the "kosode" is not really an undergarment
                    any more than a shirt is an undergarment. In both cases, their exist
                    items of clothing which can be worn over, but not under, them.

                    Regardless, the color like part of kosode and similar garments tends to
                    be fairly long. Generally speaking, at least to waist height.

                    Your Humble Servant
                    Solveig Throndardottir
                    Amateur Scholar

                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                    | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                    | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                    | the trash by my email filters. |
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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Solveig Throndardottir
                    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... It sounds to me like you like the period of about the Genpei War and are waffling about whether to be kuge
                    Message 9 of 11 , Nov 13, 2005
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                      Noble Cousin!

                      Greetings from Solveig!
                      > I waffle between Heian and Kamakura...I guess it depends on how lazy I
                      > am and what I have planned for the day.
                      It sounds to me like you like the period of about the Genpei War and
                      are waffling about whether to be kuge (aristocratic class) or buke
                      (military class).

                      Your Humble Servant
                      Solveig Throndardottir
                      Amateur Scholar

                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                      | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                      | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                      | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                      | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                      | the trash by my email filters. |
                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Yamana Hitomi
                      Wait, is that too long or too short? And remember, the average Asian ... The 15 sleeves look too short to me. I experimented with half the body length before
                      Message 10 of 11 , Nov 15, 2005
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                        Wait, is that too long or too short? And remember, the average Asian

                        >lady is closer to your size than mine (5'6", Size 16 dresses)! Big and
                        >voluminous is the whole point of Heian styles. Conspicuous consumption
                        >equals wealth and importance.
                        >
                        >Have we met? I know I've met Tsurumi-hime and Yoshiaki-dono.....
                        >
                        >Saionji (Makiwara)
                        >
                        The 15" sleeves look too short to me. I experimented with half the body
                        length before folding, and that looked good at about 36" long finished,
                        but I wanted a second opinion. For refrence this is a cutting layout
                        that I've used.

                        http://members.cox.net/yamana.hitomi/Kimono%20Cutting%20Layout%2036.pdf

                        We have not met, but I've known Yoshiaki-dono since highschool.

                        Hitomi
                      • wodeford
                        ... body ... Look at the proportions on this 16th century garment: http://www3.kyohaku.go.jp/knm/pict/c019185.jpg And on the kids playing in this 16th century
                        Message 11 of 11 , Nov 15, 2005
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                          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Yamana Hitomi <yamana.hitomi@c...> wrote:
                          > The 15" sleeves look too short to me. I experimented with half the
                          body
                          > length before folding, and that looked good at about 36" long finished,
                          > but I wanted a second opinion. For refrence this is a cutting layout
                          > that I've used.

                          Look at the proportions on this 16th century garment:
                          http://www3.kyohaku.go.jp/knm/pict/c019185.jpg

                          And on the kids playing in this 16th century screen:
                          http://www.wodefordhall.com/paddle2.jpg

                          Period kosode have small sleeves.

                          I'm three inches taller than you, have very long arms and a 16" to
                          16.5" X 30" sleeve panel is plenty big on me.
                          http://www.wodefordhall.com/yellowfront.jpg
                          Remember too, your shoulder seams will be well below the shoulder, so
                          that will drop the sleeve down your arm a bit.

                          Saionji
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