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Re: female samurai

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  • Frank Downs
    On Oct 19, 2005, at 10:16 AM, sca-jml@yahoogroups.com wrote (Kiri ... I believe the novel Kiri Hime is speaking of is Tomoe Gozen, which is an eponymous and
    Message 1 of 14 , Oct 19, 2005
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      On Oct 19, 2005, at 10:16 AM, sca-jml@yahoogroups.com wrote (Kiri
      Hime, in particular):
      > There's
      > also a novel about a female warrior...but I can't seem to remember the
      > name of it.

      I believe the novel Kiri Hime is speaking of is Tomoe Gozen, which is
      an eponymous and very fictionalized fantasy novel based on a real
      Lady warrior. There was at least one other notable Lady warrior,
      Empress Jingo famously put on armor and led her troops in the pre-
      samurai era. I'm sure you can find others with some googling.

      Takenoshita Naro

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • wodeford
      ... Sei Shonagon is not a samurai. Sei Shonagon, a lady in service to the Empress, would be extremely insulted if you said so. ;- That said, it s an excellent
      Message 2 of 14 , Oct 19, 2005
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        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "RC Kofoed" <kagemusha_RCK@h...> wrote:
        >
        > I also like The Pillow Book of Sei Shonagon ISBN 0-231-07337-2
        > and Samurai Warlords - The Book of the Daimyo by Stephen Turnball ISBN
        > 0-7137-2329-7

        Sei Shonagon is not a samurai. Sei Shonagon, a lady in service to the
        Empress, would be extremely insulted if you said so. ;->

        That said, it's an excellent read.

        Saionji no Hanae, Kuge and Proud of It
      • Hirotada Tokugawa
        Famous female samurai I can remember off the top of my head: Tomoe-gozen Yamabuki-gozen Aoi Hojo Masako Oda Oichi Maeda Matsu Asano O-ne Myorin-ni Nakano
        Message 3 of 14 , Oct 19, 2005
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          Famous female samurai I can remember off the top of my head:

          Tomoe-gozen
          Yamabuki-gozen
          Aoi
          Hojo Masako
          Oda Oichi
          Maeda Matsu
          Asano O-ne
          Myorin-ni
          Nakano Takeko
          Nakano Yuuko
          Hirata Kocho
          Hirata Yoshi
          Yoda Makiko
          Yoda Kikuko

          Also, check out the page I help out on for more info:
          http://www.shinsengumihq.com/WB.htm (page on the Aizu "Women's brigade")

          -M.
        • James Eckman
          Plus one in the latest Taiga drama Yoshitsune! A fair amount of liberties were taken with the series so I have no idea how historical it is. She had neat armor
          Message 4 of 14 , Oct 19, 2005
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            Plus one in the latest Taiga drama Yoshitsune! A fair amount of
            liberties were taken with the series so I have no idea how historical it
            is. She had neat armor though.

            Jim
          • Solveig Throndardottir
            Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! NO! Koto was not a woman s instrument. Pleanty of men played various stringed instruments. The tradition was that women
            Message 5 of 14 , Oct 20, 2005
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              Noble Cousins!

              Greetings from Solveig! NO! Koto was not a woman's instrument. Pleanty
              of men played various stringed instruments. The tradition was that
              women did not play most if not all wind instruments. For example, women
              supposeably did not generally play the flute during the time of the
              Genpei War. There is some substance to this as supported by various
              monogatari such as Torikaebe.

              Another piece of suspicious information is this whole business about
              naginata being a women's weapon. This may have evolved during the
              Tokugawa period or possibly as early as the Momoyama period which would
              make it barely period. However, the fighting women who show up in the
              war tales wield a rather larger range of weapons.

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar

              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
              | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
              | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
              | the trash by my email filters. |
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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Caroline Foster
              ... Well, Japanese scholarship isn t on your side on this one. For example, Josango~ Hiroyasu has written extensively on gendering and culture of musical
              Message 6 of 14 , Oct 20, 2005
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                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@a...> wrote:
                >
                > Noble Cousins!
                >
                > Greetings from Solveig! NO! Koto was not a woman's instrument. Pleanty
                > of men played various stringed instruments. The tradition was that

                Well, Japanese scholarship isn't on your side on this one.
                For example, Josango~ Hiroyasu has written extensively on gendering and culture of musical instruments in Japan. That's not to say on occasion people contravened these arbitrary allocations, but the general cultural encoding was in everyone's mind. I was at a musicology conference recently and heard a paper by Cynthia Nyoen on this very subject: gender and typification in jyunta performances . . . you might also refer to her many articles on the subject.


                But judging by your emphatic "Non!" I suspect you've already made up on your mind on the subject and are not open to discussion.
                Which reminds me -- I'm unsubscribing from this list. Thanks for the lecture, but I've already had a few of them today.

                Real friendly place here, folks.

                Sayo~nara.
              • Solveig Throndardottir
                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Ahh! I change my mind rather often. What is needed is evidence, What I do not go along with is people simply
                Message 7 of 14 , Oct 20, 2005
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                  Noble Cousin!

                  Greetings from Solveig!

                  > But judging by your emphatic "Non!" I suspect you've already made up
                  > on your mind on the subject and are not open to discussion.

                  Ahh! I change my mind rather often. What is needed is evidence, What I
                  do not go along with is people simply repeating old canards about
                  gendering of various Japanese artifacts without saying when and for
                  whom the gendering was in effect or why we should believe in this
                  gendering. One piece of false gendering which makes my teeth grind is
                  the typification of the tea ceremony as a feminine activity. However,
                  this is precisely how it is often portrayed. Nobody did this in the
                  most recent discussion, but it is an example of the sort of thing which
                  bothers me.

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar

                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                  | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                  | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                  | the trash by my email filters. |
                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Park McKellop
                  Well, wasn t that a nice discussion! ;-) Alcyoneus ... Well, Japanese scholarship isn t on your side on this one. For example, Josango~ Hiroyasu has written
                  Message 8 of 14 , Oct 20, 2005
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                    Well, wasn't that a nice discussion! ;-)

                    Alcyoneus

                    Caroline Foster <way_of_bamboo@...> wrote:
                    --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@a...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Noble Cousins!
                    >
                    > Greetings from Solveig! NO! Koto was not a woman's instrument. Pleanty
                    > of men played various stringed instruments. The tradition was that

                    Well, Japanese scholarship isn't on your side on this one.
                    For example, Josango~ Hiroyasu has written extensively on gendering and culture of musical instruments in Japan. That's not to say on occasion people contravened these arbitrary allocations, but the general cultural encoding was in everyone's mind. I was at a musicology conference recently and heard a paper by Cynthia Nyoen on this very subject: gender and typification in jyunta performances . . . you might also refer to her many articles on the subject.


                    But judging by your emphatic "Non!" I suspect you've already made up on your mind on the subject and are not open to discussion.
                    Which reminds me -- I'm unsubscribing from this list. Thanks for the lecture, but I've already had a few of them today.

                    Real friendly place here, folks.

                    Sayo~nara.







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                  • James Eckman
                    ... Why would men do tea ceremony? Unless of course they were into politics during the late Sengoku period when it really was something really powerful ;) Whip
                    Message 9 of 14 , Oct 21, 2005
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                      > From: Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
                      >
                      >
                      >One piece of false gendering which makes my teeth grind is
                      >the typification of the tea ceremony as a feminine activity. However,
                      >this is precisely how it is often portrayed. Nobody did this in the
                      >most recent discussion, but it is an example of the sort of thing which
                      >bothers me.
                      >
                      >
                      Why would men do tea ceremony? Unless of course they were into politics
                      during the late Sengoku period when it really was something really
                      powerful ;)

                      Whip me for being a smart aleck!

                      Jim
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