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RE: [SCA-JML] female samurai

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  • RC Kofoed
    I also like The Pillow Book of Sei Shonagon ISBN 0-231-07337-2 and Samurai Warlords - The Book of the Daimyo by Stephen Turnball ISBN 0-7137-2329-7
    Message 1 of 14 , Oct 19, 2005
      I also like The Pillow Book of Sei Shonagon ISBN 0-231-07337-2
      and Samurai Warlords - The Book of the Daimyo by Stephen Turnball ISBN
      0-7137-2329-7

      http://www.koryubooks.com/library/wwj1.html

      http://www.lothene.demon.co.uk/others/women.html

      Hope those help!

      Lady Tatsumi Tomoko

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      Message: 3
      Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 13:18:47 -0000
      From: "wodeford" <wodeford@...>
      Subject: Re: female samurai

      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "amythyst_starr" <gargoylegrl@g...> wrote:
      >
      >female samurai(or in other words help, Im trying to figure out a
      >japanese persona of some sort and this was something that caught my
      >eye*G*)

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomoe_Gozen
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingu_of_Japan

      You could start with these.

      Saionji no Hanae
    • Frank Downs
      On Oct 19, 2005, at 10:16 AM, sca-jml@yahoogroups.com wrote (Kiri ... I believe the novel Kiri Hime is speaking of is Tomoe Gozen, which is an eponymous and
      Message 2 of 14 , Oct 19, 2005
        On Oct 19, 2005, at 10:16 AM, sca-jml@yahoogroups.com wrote (Kiri
        Hime, in particular):
        > There's
        > also a novel about a female warrior...but I can't seem to remember the
        > name of it.

        I believe the novel Kiri Hime is speaking of is Tomoe Gozen, which is
        an eponymous and very fictionalized fantasy novel based on a real
        Lady warrior. There was at least one other notable Lady warrior,
        Empress Jingo famously put on armor and led her troops in the pre-
        samurai era. I'm sure you can find others with some googling.

        Takenoshita Naro

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • wodeford
        ... Sei Shonagon is not a samurai. Sei Shonagon, a lady in service to the Empress, would be extremely insulted if you said so. ;- That said, it s an excellent
        Message 3 of 14 , Oct 19, 2005
          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "RC Kofoed" <kagemusha_RCK@h...> wrote:
          >
          > I also like The Pillow Book of Sei Shonagon ISBN 0-231-07337-2
          > and Samurai Warlords - The Book of the Daimyo by Stephen Turnball ISBN
          > 0-7137-2329-7

          Sei Shonagon is not a samurai. Sei Shonagon, a lady in service to the
          Empress, would be extremely insulted if you said so. ;->

          That said, it's an excellent read.

          Saionji no Hanae, Kuge and Proud of It
        • Hirotada Tokugawa
          Famous female samurai I can remember off the top of my head: Tomoe-gozen Yamabuki-gozen Aoi Hojo Masako Oda Oichi Maeda Matsu Asano O-ne Myorin-ni Nakano
          Message 4 of 14 , Oct 19, 2005
            Famous female samurai I can remember off the top of my head:

            Tomoe-gozen
            Yamabuki-gozen
            Aoi
            Hojo Masako
            Oda Oichi
            Maeda Matsu
            Asano O-ne
            Myorin-ni
            Nakano Takeko
            Nakano Yuuko
            Hirata Kocho
            Hirata Yoshi
            Yoda Makiko
            Yoda Kikuko

            Also, check out the page I help out on for more info:
            http://www.shinsengumihq.com/WB.htm (page on the Aizu "Women's brigade")

            -M.
          • James Eckman
            Plus one in the latest Taiga drama Yoshitsune! A fair amount of liberties were taken with the series so I have no idea how historical it is. She had neat armor
            Message 5 of 14 , Oct 19, 2005
              Plus one in the latest Taiga drama Yoshitsune! A fair amount of
              liberties were taken with the series so I have no idea how historical it
              is. She had neat armor though.

              Jim
            • Solveig Throndardottir
              Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! NO! Koto was not a woman s instrument. Pleanty of men played various stringed instruments. The tradition was that women
              Message 6 of 14 , Oct 20, 2005
                Noble Cousins!

                Greetings from Solveig! NO! Koto was not a woman's instrument. Pleanty
                of men played various stringed instruments. The tradition was that
                women did not play most if not all wind instruments. For example, women
                supposeably did not generally play the flute during the time of the
                Genpei War. There is some substance to this as supported by various
                monogatari such as Torikaebe.

                Another piece of suspicious information is this whole business about
                naginata being a women's weapon. This may have evolved during the
                Tokugawa period or possibly as early as the Momoyama period which would
                make it barely period. However, the fighting women who show up in the
                war tales wield a rather larger range of weapons.

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar

                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                | the trash by my email filters. |
                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Caroline Foster
                ... Well, Japanese scholarship isn t on your side on this one. For example, Josango~ Hiroyasu has written extensively on gendering and culture of musical
                Message 7 of 14 , Oct 20, 2005
                  --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@a...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Noble Cousins!
                  >
                  > Greetings from Solveig! NO! Koto was not a woman's instrument. Pleanty
                  > of men played various stringed instruments. The tradition was that

                  Well, Japanese scholarship isn't on your side on this one.
                  For example, Josango~ Hiroyasu has written extensively on gendering and culture of musical instruments in Japan. That's not to say on occasion people contravened these arbitrary allocations, but the general cultural encoding was in everyone's mind. I was at a musicology conference recently and heard a paper by Cynthia Nyoen on this very subject: gender and typification in jyunta performances . . . you might also refer to her many articles on the subject.


                  But judging by your emphatic "Non!" I suspect you've already made up on your mind on the subject and are not open to discussion.
                  Which reminds me -- I'm unsubscribing from this list. Thanks for the lecture, but I've already had a few of them today.

                  Real friendly place here, folks.

                  Sayo~nara.
                • Solveig Throndardottir
                  Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Ahh! I change my mind rather often. What is needed is evidence, What I do not go along with is people simply
                  Message 8 of 14 , Oct 20, 2005
                    Noble Cousin!

                    Greetings from Solveig!

                    > But judging by your emphatic "Non!" I suspect you've already made up
                    > on your mind on the subject and are not open to discussion.

                    Ahh! I change my mind rather often. What is needed is evidence, What I
                    do not go along with is people simply repeating old canards about
                    gendering of various Japanese artifacts without saying when and for
                    whom the gendering was in effect or why we should believe in this
                    gendering. One piece of false gendering which makes my teeth grind is
                    the typification of the tea ceremony as a feminine activity. However,
                    this is precisely how it is often portrayed. Nobody did this in the
                    most recent discussion, but it is an example of the sort of thing which
                    bothers me.

                    Your Humble Servant
                    Solveig Throndardottir
                    Amateur Scholar

                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                    | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                    | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                    | the trash by my email filters. |
                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Park McKellop
                    Well, wasn t that a nice discussion! ;-) Alcyoneus ... Well, Japanese scholarship isn t on your side on this one. For example, Josango~ Hiroyasu has written
                    Message 9 of 14 , Oct 20, 2005
                      Well, wasn't that a nice discussion! ;-)

                      Alcyoneus

                      Caroline Foster <way_of_bamboo@...> wrote:
                      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@a...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Noble Cousins!
                      >
                      > Greetings from Solveig! NO! Koto was not a woman's instrument. Pleanty
                      > of men played various stringed instruments. The tradition was that

                      Well, Japanese scholarship isn't on your side on this one.
                      For example, Josango~ Hiroyasu has written extensively on gendering and culture of musical instruments in Japan. That's not to say on occasion people contravened these arbitrary allocations, but the general cultural encoding was in everyone's mind. I was at a musicology conference recently and heard a paper by Cynthia Nyoen on this very subject: gender and typification in jyunta performances . . . you might also refer to her many articles on the subject.


                      But judging by your emphatic "Non!" I suspect you've already made up on your mind on the subject and are not open to discussion.
                      Which reminds me -- I'm unsubscribing from this list. Thanks for the lecture, but I've already had a few of them today.

                      Real friendly place here, folks.

                      Sayo~nara.







                      UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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                    • James Eckman
                      ... Why would men do tea ceremony? Unless of course they were into politics during the late Sengoku period when it really was something really powerful ;) Whip
                      Message 10 of 14 , Oct 21, 2005
                        > From: Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
                        >
                        >
                        >One piece of false gendering which makes my teeth grind is
                        >the typification of the tea ceremony as a feminine activity. However,
                        >this is precisely how it is often portrayed. Nobody did this in the
                        >most recent discussion, but it is an example of the sort of thing which
                        >bothers me.
                        >
                        >
                        Why would men do tea ceremony? Unless of course they were into politics
                        during the late Sengoku period when it really was something really
                        powerful ;)

                        Whip me for being a smart aleck!

                        Jim
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