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Re: [SCA-JML] Re: authentic Kimono pattern?

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  • Anthony Bryant
    ... Why did we stop wearing hats? Why did we stop dressing up to do anything? You didn t see people who weren t working the land wearing T-shirts in public
    Message 1 of 30 , Sep 7, 2005
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      Otagiri Tatsuzou wrote:

      > Why did they stop wearing pants?


      Why did we stop wearing hats? Why did we stop "dressing up" to do
      anything? You didn't see people who weren't working the land wearing
      T-shirts in public in the 1940s and 1950s unless they were
      counter-culture elements (e.g., James Dean). Jeans were work clothes.
      Button down dress shirts (ties, jackets) were the social norm. Nowadays,
      we go to the theatre in jeans and a t-shirt and flip-flops. I've seen
      people on campus wearing what I would swear to have been pajamas.

      It's a sign of the coursening of society, IMHO. Remember "Leave it to
      Beaver" where the June Cleaver vaccuumed and cooked in a dress and
      pearls, and Ward wore a tie and jacket at his own dinner table? That
      really was a societal norm. It certainly was in my home.

      Today, I walk around the house in sweatpants and a T-shirt, and it would
      kill my dad to have seen it. Those clothes, in his opinion, belong on
      the sports field or field house, not in public or as "daywear."


      Effingham
    • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
      ... I m not certain we can say why, for certain, other than that fashion changed. I would hazard a guess that walking around in simply a kosode was just a way
      Message 2 of 30 , Sep 7, 2005
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        On 9/7/05, Otagiri Tatsuzou <ronbroberg@...> wrote:
        >
        > > Normal people -- samurai, peasants, artisans, merchants, what have you
        > > -- did NOT as a rule go about without some semblance of pants until the
        > > early Edo or REALLY REALLY REALLY late in period. It. Was. Just.
        > Not. Done.
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > Why did they stop wearing pants?
        >
        >
        > Otagiri

        I'm not certain we can say why, for certain, other than that fashion
        changed.
        I would hazard a guess that walking around in simply a kosode was just a
        way of 'bumming around' the house. It may have also been something that
        working stiffs did--especially if you are working in summer on a hot day. In
        some later Edo Period woodblock prints I also notice what appears to be
        another, fancy 'modesty' garment (looks like the front flap of a fundoshi
        that has been elaborately embroidered and tasseled, in one
        instance)--possibly the response to wearing no pants.
        I get the impression from the paintings that this is often similar to
        rolling down one's chausses in a European setting.
        In "Arrival of the 'Southern Barbarians'" (Anonymous, c. 1600, Leonard C.
        Hann Jr. Fund 1960.193.1-2) there is a mix of laymen with hakama and
        without. I'd say that hakama are definitely in the majority (well, the
        nanban's pantaloons are, but that's a different matter). In some instances,
        it may just be that the hakama are the same color as the kosode--it is hard
        to make out. Only one layman, that I can clearly make out definitely is not
        wearing hakama. I can't be sure if it is a bushi or a merchant.
        By the first half of the 17th century we have Kano Einou's "Views of Lake
        Biwa" (J. H. Wade Fund 1983.19.1-2). It shows several laymen without hakama,
        although they seem to often have kyahan (leg wraps) on.
        In the "Hikone Screen" (c. 1630-1645, Hikone Castle Museum, Shiga
        Prefecture) we see a samurai dandy leaning on his sword (like a cane), hips
        out, and relaxed, with what appears to be just a couple of layers of kosode.
        It is hard to tell, but others in the seen are wearing hakama, and the
        person in question appears to be quite young. Probably a youth, flirting
        witha couple of ladies.
        In "Ammusements in a Mansion" (c. 1640s, Private Collection), many of the
        men are shown in just kosode style garments--in fact, the style of dress
        between men and women is extremely unisex, including the medium-width obi.
        Some older gentlemen are wearing pants, as are many of the samurai about to
        enter, although two bushi appear to be wearing furisode--the long sleeved
        kosode often worn by unmarried women, modernly. The entire scene, I should
        note, seems to have something sexual, and in parts possibly homoerotic, to
        it.
        Add to this the ages old tradition of 'putting on the trousers' as a
        special day in a young boy's progression towards manhood, and the lack of
        hakama for many working classes, leads me to put forward the following
        hypothesis:
        As the lower classes were able to attain rank, they brought their clothes
        with them. Notice that this happened when the bushi first rose to
        prominence, with the hitatare becoming a rich garment. Likewise, the doubuku
        appears to have possibly come from the merchant class.
        Perhaps the lower ranks of the samurai--drawn from provincial farmer-bushi
        and ashigaru--brought this working style with them? On top of that, it seems
        that you see pictures of this style in brothels and 'the floating world',
        especially among youths. It definitely seems to emphasize the effeminate
        qualities. It may have been the equivalent of wearing your pants so low that
        your underwear is seen--only in this case, there are no pants at all.
        Just some thoughts.
        It should be noted that whenever I saw people dressed up for formal
        affairs, they still had hakama, and hakama are seen more often than not, so
        it definitely seems to be the more formal and respected outfit.
        -Ii
        -Ii


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Solveig Throndardottir
        Otagiri dono! Greetings from Solvieg! ... Why did ties become less popular in North America? Basically, there was a bit of a trend towards simplification in
        Message 3 of 30 , Sep 7, 2005
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          Otagiri dono!

          Greetings from Solvieg!

          > Why did they stop wearing pants?

          Why did ties become less popular in North America? Basically, there was
          a bit of a trend towards simplification in costume over the centuries
          in Japan. Further, as Baron Edward pointed out in one of his Pennsic
          classes, lower classes tended to adopt the leisure wear of the upper
          classes as their own formal wear.

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar

          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
          | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
          | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Solveig Throndardottir
          Baron Edward! Greetings from Solveig! June Cleaver wearing pearls while vacuming was a bit over the top even for the mid-50 s. My mother wore a house dress
          Message 4 of 30 , Sep 7, 2005
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            Baron Edward!

            Greetings from Solveig! June Cleaver wearing pearls while vacuming was
            a bit over the top even for the mid-50's. My mother wore a "house
            dress" which you would never ever see June Cleaver wear while vacuming
            and did not generally wear pearls while doing housework. Also, I do not
            recall my father wearing a jacket while we ate dinner although he did
            wear one to work. The big dress code revolution was pretty pervasive in
            the 60's. Men started wearing coloured shirts and even short sleaved
            shirts to work.

            As for today, I have seen people wearing both nightwear and underwear
            as outerwear on campus. I was very startled by the idea of people
            wandering around their own houses naked until fairly recently.

            All of that said, the notion that you do dress properly for things was
            well enough ingrained in my psyche that after summoning the ambulance
            which was soon to transport me unconscious to the hospital, I decided
            that I needed to change from night clothes into outside clothes. This
            led to rather unfortunate results when the rescue squad showed up.

            > Jeans were work clothes.

            Jeans were rather specialized work clothes or sportwear. Most workers
            wore rather different clothing. People were wearing jeans as sportswear
            by the 1940's or earlier. Actually one of the things that changed is
            the general disappearance of uniforms. In the days of June Cleaver,
            service station attendants, milk truck drivers, railroad engineers,
            painters, and many other occupations had distinctive uniforms.

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar

            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
            | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
            | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
            | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
            | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
            | the trash by my email filters. |
            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • James Eckman
            ... People dress up, just not the way your re used to. ... The concept of dress flip-flops seems like an oxymoron, but I ve heard serious discussions about it,
            Message 5 of 30 , Sep 8, 2005
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              > From: Anthony Bryant <anthony_bryant@...>
              >
              >
              > From: Anthony Bryant <anthony_bryant@...>
              >
              >
              >Why did we stop wearing hats? Why did we stop "dressing up" to do
              >anything?
              >
              People dress up, just not the way your're used to.

              >You didn't see people who weren't working the land wearing
              >T-shirts in public in the 1940s and 1950s unless they were
              >counter-culture elements (e.g., James Dean). Jeans were work clothes.
              >Button down dress shirts (ties, jackets) were the social norm. Nowadays,
              >we go to the theatre in jeans and a t-shirt and flip-flops. I've seen
              >people on campus wearing what I would swear to have been pajamas.
              >
              >
              The concept of dress flip-flops seems like an oxymoron, but I've heard
              serious discussions about it, and of course there's always the dress
              t-shirt, the one with the pocket ;)

              >It's a sign of the coursening of society, IMHO.
              >
              ROTFL

              >Remember "Leave it to
              >Beaver" where the June Cleaver vaccuumed and cooked in a dress and
              >pearls, and Ward wore a tie and jacket at his own dinner table? That
              >really was a societal norm. It certainly was in my home.
              >
              >
              Most people in the 60's and 70's drank more than they do nowadays, 100
              years ago a bottle a day man was not an uncommon person. Is this part of
              the refinement we are missing along with lynchings, women forced to stay
              home, etc? Fashion is one of those transient things and really doesn't
              have any real long term impact on society. Also the days of no SCA :(
              Give me the good new days.

              >Today, I walk around the house in sweatpants and a T-shirt, and it would
              >kill my dad to have seen it. Those clothes, in his opinion, belong on
              >the sports field or field house, not in public or as "daywear."
              >
              >
              Lucky I had counter culture parents then...

              > From: Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
              >
              >
              >Why did ties become less popular in North America?
              >
              Because they are uncomfortable, dangerous and a pain in the ass? Just
              the opinion of the fashion god of the nerds.

              >Basically, there was
              >a bit of a trend towards simplification in costume over the centuries
              >in Japan. Further, as Baron Edward pointed out in one of his Pennsic
              >classes, lower classes tended to adopt the leisure wear of the upper
              >classes as their own formal wear.
              >
              >
              Tuxedos come to mind.

              >As for today, I have seen people wearing both nightwear and underwear
              >as outerwear on campus. I was very startled by the idea of people
              >wandering around their own houses naked until fairly recently.
              >
              >
              Some of our Scandinavian neighbors were doing that in the late 50's,
              welcome to the land of the Puritans.

              Jim Eckman
            • Solveig Throndardottir
              Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... I was once told that in the 19th century, the floor of the U.S. Senate was generously equipped with a punch bowl full
              Message 6 of 30 , Sep 8, 2005
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                Noble Cousin!

                Greetings from Solveig!

                > Most people in the 60's and 70's drank more than they do nowadays, 100
                > years ago a bottle a day man was not an uncommon person. Is this part
                > of
                > the refinement we are missing along with lynchings, women forced to
                > stay
                > home, etc? Fashion is one of those transient things and really doesn't
                > have any real long term impact on society. Also the days of no SCA :(
                > Give me the good new days.

                I was once told that in the 19th century, the floor of the U.S. Senate
                was generously equipped with a punch bowl full of whisky. At one time,
                spittoons were common. Some nineteenth judges and other lawmen had the
                habit of taking trophies from those apprehended in some case making
                items of apparel or satchels out of body parts taken from those
                executed. (This I have seen in a museum.) In nineteenth century
                Montana, one town decided to steal the county seat from another town.
                They succeeded, and the original county seat is now a ghost town. Then
                again, there were those lovely battles between the Pinkertons and all
                sorts of other groups including, in at least one incident in Ohio if I
                recall correctly, the local constabulary.

                > Some of our Scandinavian neighbors were doing that in the late 50's,
                > welcome to the land of the Puritans.

                I know not how reliable this story of the Puritans is, but I was once
                told that the Puritans were tossed out of England for being obnoxious
                in a variety of ways including apparently demonstrating their supposed
                purity by parading around London in the buff. One thing that is pretty
                certain about New England colonists is that they did not all live in
                white houses. There are amusing cases of the boards of "historical"
                societies in Lexington and Concord forbidding their owners from
                painting their houses the colours which they were actually painted at
                the time of the revolution instead mandating that they must be painted
                "colonial white".

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar

                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                | the trash by my email filters. |
                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


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