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Re: [SCA-JML] authentic Kimono pattern?

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  • Michael Wood
    ... I am so sorry I started this argument; I meant to help a new person to the SCA make her man look like he was a samurai, somehow kimono alone looks
    Message 1 of 30 , Sep 6, 2005
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      --- Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
      >The original issue was
      > whether or not a
      > "self-respecting" male would go without pants. I
      > believe that the
      > examples from the Costume Museum answer this
      > question in the
      > affirmative. Yes, indeed! Certain pretty
      > high-ranking self-respecting
      > premodern Japanese men would on certain formal
      > occasions go without
      > trousers.

      I am so sorry I started this argument; I meant to help
      a new person to the SCA make her man look like he was
      a samurai, somehow kimono alone looks incomplete. My
      terms were inappropriately general and vague. I read
      somewhere (be careful using undocumented sources) that
      a samurai would never attend a festival (SCA events
      being festivals) without pants. I have only studied
      some people of the "Sengoku" period, so my area of
      knowledge is truly quite small.

      In the future I will be more careful how I phrase
      things... "Look here for cool samurai pants too!"

      Sorry for the confusion


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    • Anthony Bryant
      ... I think you re conflating the issue of specialized uniforms (e.g., clerical work clothes ) with what the NORMAL person wore. Certainly historians of
      Message 2 of 30 , Sep 6, 2005
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        Solveig Throndardottir wrote:

        > I looked at a bunch of those. Several of them, as I recall, depict
        > what are actually traveling clothes. Traveling clothes are a distinct
        > form of clothing which you see a fair amount of in pre-modern
        > Japanese. Traveling clothes persisted in North America at least until
        > the 1950's. Regardless, one of the pictures I referenced depicts a
        > formally dressed high ranking buddhist cleric. The original issue was
        > whether or not a "self-respecting" male would go without pants. I
        > believe that the examples from the Costume Museum answer this
        > question in the affirmative. Yes, indeed! Certain pretty high-ranking
        > self-respecting premodern Japanese men would on certain formal
        > occasions go without trousers.

        I think you're conflating the issue of specialized uniforms (e.g.,
        clerical "work clothes") with what the NORMAL person wore.

        Certainly historians of Japanese clothing and fashion (e.g., Suzuki
        Keizo, Sato Yasuko, and Kawabata Yasuhide) fall on my side. In fact, if
        I remember the source correctly, the bit about dignified men not going
        out without pants is a near direct quote from Kawabata in Yusoku kojitsu
        zufu."

        Effingham
      • Solveig Throndardottir
        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Bushi indeed frequently went about in hakama. I am sorry if I distressed you. I was simply responding to what I
        Message 3 of 30 , Sep 7, 2005
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          Noble Cousin!

          Greetings from Solveig!

          > I am so sorry I started this argument; I meant to help
          > a new person to the SCA make her man look like he was
          > a samurai, somehow kimono alone looks incomplete.

          Bushi indeed frequently went about in hakama. I am sorry if I
          distressed you. I was simply responding to what I viewed as an overly
          categorical statement.

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar

          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
          | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
          | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
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        • Solveig Throndardottir
          Baron Edward! Greetings from Solveig! ... As you well know, the Japanese love uniforms. So, uniforms were hardly unique to the clergy. At least one of the
          Message 4 of 30 , Sep 7, 2005
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            Baron Edward!

            Greetings from Solveig!

            > I think you're conflating the issue of specialized uniforms (e.g.,
            > clerical "work clothes") with what the NORMAL person wore.

            As you well know, the Japanese love uniforms. So, uniforms were hardly
            unique to the clergy. At least one of the illustrations at the costume
            museum which I referenced would be better characterized as "ceremonial
            clothing" than "work clothes". Regardless, as I already mentioned to
            the unwitting and unfortunate instigator of this recent exchange
            between us, I was simply responding to what was phrased as a blanket
            statement. As for the high ranking clerics in question, they were most
            definitely "dignified men". If anything, high ranking clerics were
            frequently satirized for their attachment to splendid robes. As for the
            political status of some of these clerics, I refer you to "Heavenly
            Warriors" and other similar books about the Kamakura and Muromachi
            periods. Some of these clerics effectively held rank equivalent to that
            of a provincial governor.

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar

            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
            | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
            | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
            | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
            | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
            | the trash by my email filters. |
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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Anthony Bryant
            ... Again.... If you want to take that view, fine. But clerical types do NOT count as typical people in terms of dress or style when they are in their outfits.
            Message 5 of 30 , Sep 7, 2005
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              Solveig Throndardottir wrote:

              > Baron Edward!
              >
              > Greetings from Solveig!
              >
              > > I think you're conflating the issue of specialized uniforms (e.g.,
              > > clerical "work clothes") with what the NORMAL person wore.
              >
              > As you well know, the Japanese love uniforms. So, uniforms were hardly
              > unique to the clergy. At least one of the illustrations at the costume
              > museum which I referenced would be better characterized as "ceremonial
              > clothing" than "work clothes". Regardless, as I already mentioned to
              > the unwitting and unfortunate instigator of this recent exchange
              > between us, I was simply responding to what was phrased as a blanket
              > statement. As for the high ranking clerics in question, they were most
              > definitely "dignified men". If anything, high ranking clerics were
              > frequently satirized for their attachment to splendid robes. As for the
              > political status of some of these clerics, I refer you to "Heavenly
              > Warriors" and other similar books about the Kamakura and Muromachi
              > periods. Some of these clerics effectively held rank equivalent to that
              > of a provincial governor.
              >
              Again....

              If you want to take that view, fine. But clerical types do NOT count as
              typical people in terms of dress or style when they are in their outfits.

              Normal people -- samurai, peasants, artisans, merchants, what have you
              -- did NOT as a rule go about without some semblance of pants until the
              early Edo or REALLY REALLY REALLY late in period. It. Was. Just. Not. Done.


              Effingham
            • Otagiri Tatsuzou
              ... Not. Done. ... Why did they stop wearing pants? Otagiri
              Message 6 of 30 , Sep 7, 2005
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                > Normal people -- samurai, peasants, artisans, merchants, what have you
                > -- did NOT as a rule go about without some semblance of pants until the
                > early Edo or REALLY REALLY REALLY late in period. It. Was. Just.
                Not. Done.
                >
                >


                Why did they stop wearing pants?


                Otagiri
              • Anthony Bryant
                ... Why did we stop wearing hats? Why did we stop dressing up to do anything? You didn t see people who weren t working the land wearing T-shirts in public
                Message 7 of 30 , Sep 7, 2005
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                  Otagiri Tatsuzou wrote:

                  > Why did they stop wearing pants?


                  Why did we stop wearing hats? Why did we stop "dressing up" to do
                  anything? You didn't see people who weren't working the land wearing
                  T-shirts in public in the 1940s and 1950s unless they were
                  counter-culture elements (e.g., James Dean). Jeans were work clothes.
                  Button down dress shirts (ties, jackets) were the social norm. Nowadays,
                  we go to the theatre in jeans and a t-shirt and flip-flops. I've seen
                  people on campus wearing what I would swear to have been pajamas.

                  It's a sign of the coursening of society, IMHO. Remember "Leave it to
                  Beaver" where the June Cleaver vaccuumed and cooked in a dress and
                  pearls, and Ward wore a tie and jacket at his own dinner table? That
                  really was a societal norm. It certainly was in my home.

                  Today, I walk around the house in sweatpants and a T-shirt, and it would
                  kill my dad to have seen it. Those clothes, in his opinion, belong on
                  the sports field or field house, not in public or as "daywear."


                  Effingham
                • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                  ... I m not certain we can say why, for certain, other than that fashion changed. I would hazard a guess that walking around in simply a kosode was just a way
                  Message 8 of 30 , Sep 7, 2005
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                    On 9/7/05, Otagiri Tatsuzou <ronbroberg@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > Normal people -- samurai, peasants, artisans, merchants, what have you
                    > > -- did NOT as a rule go about without some semblance of pants until the
                    > > early Edo or REALLY REALLY REALLY late in period. It. Was. Just.
                    > Not. Done.
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > Why did they stop wearing pants?
                    >
                    >
                    > Otagiri

                    I'm not certain we can say why, for certain, other than that fashion
                    changed.
                    I would hazard a guess that walking around in simply a kosode was just a
                    way of 'bumming around' the house. It may have also been something that
                    working stiffs did--especially if you are working in summer on a hot day. In
                    some later Edo Period woodblock prints I also notice what appears to be
                    another, fancy 'modesty' garment (looks like the front flap of a fundoshi
                    that has been elaborately embroidered and tasseled, in one
                    instance)--possibly the response to wearing no pants.
                    I get the impression from the paintings that this is often similar to
                    rolling down one's chausses in a European setting.
                    In "Arrival of the 'Southern Barbarians'" (Anonymous, c. 1600, Leonard C.
                    Hann Jr. Fund 1960.193.1-2) there is a mix of laymen with hakama and
                    without. I'd say that hakama are definitely in the majority (well, the
                    nanban's pantaloons are, but that's a different matter). In some instances,
                    it may just be that the hakama are the same color as the kosode--it is hard
                    to make out. Only one layman, that I can clearly make out definitely is not
                    wearing hakama. I can't be sure if it is a bushi or a merchant.
                    By the first half of the 17th century we have Kano Einou's "Views of Lake
                    Biwa" (J. H. Wade Fund 1983.19.1-2). It shows several laymen without hakama,
                    although they seem to often have kyahan (leg wraps) on.
                    In the "Hikone Screen" (c. 1630-1645, Hikone Castle Museum, Shiga
                    Prefecture) we see a samurai dandy leaning on his sword (like a cane), hips
                    out, and relaxed, with what appears to be just a couple of layers of kosode.
                    It is hard to tell, but others in the seen are wearing hakama, and the
                    person in question appears to be quite young. Probably a youth, flirting
                    witha couple of ladies.
                    In "Ammusements in a Mansion" (c. 1640s, Private Collection), many of the
                    men are shown in just kosode style garments--in fact, the style of dress
                    between men and women is extremely unisex, including the medium-width obi.
                    Some older gentlemen are wearing pants, as are many of the samurai about to
                    enter, although two bushi appear to be wearing furisode--the long sleeved
                    kosode often worn by unmarried women, modernly. The entire scene, I should
                    note, seems to have something sexual, and in parts possibly homoerotic, to
                    it.
                    Add to this the ages old tradition of 'putting on the trousers' as a
                    special day in a young boy's progression towards manhood, and the lack of
                    hakama for many working classes, leads me to put forward the following
                    hypothesis:
                    As the lower classes were able to attain rank, they brought their clothes
                    with them. Notice that this happened when the bushi first rose to
                    prominence, with the hitatare becoming a rich garment. Likewise, the doubuku
                    appears to have possibly come from the merchant class.
                    Perhaps the lower ranks of the samurai--drawn from provincial farmer-bushi
                    and ashigaru--brought this working style with them? On top of that, it seems
                    that you see pictures of this style in brothels and 'the floating world',
                    especially among youths. It definitely seems to emphasize the effeminate
                    qualities. It may have been the equivalent of wearing your pants so low that
                    your underwear is seen--only in this case, there are no pants at all.
                    Just some thoughts.
                    It should be noted that whenever I saw people dressed up for formal
                    affairs, they still had hakama, and hakama are seen more often than not, so
                    it definitely seems to be the more formal and respected outfit.
                    -Ii
                    -Ii


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Solveig Throndardottir
                    Otagiri dono! Greetings from Solvieg! ... Why did ties become less popular in North America? Basically, there was a bit of a trend towards simplification in
                    Message 9 of 30 , Sep 7, 2005
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                      Otagiri dono!

                      Greetings from Solvieg!

                      > Why did they stop wearing pants?

                      Why did ties become less popular in North America? Basically, there was
                      a bit of a trend towards simplification in costume over the centuries
                      in Japan. Further, as Baron Edward pointed out in one of his Pennsic
                      classes, lower classes tended to adopt the leisure wear of the upper
                      classes as their own formal wear.

                      Your Humble Servant
                      Solveig Throndardottir
                      Amateur Scholar

                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                      | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                      | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                      | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                      | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                      | the trash by my email filters. |
                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Solveig Throndardottir
                      Baron Edward! Greetings from Solveig! June Cleaver wearing pearls while vacuming was a bit over the top even for the mid-50 s. My mother wore a house dress
                      Message 10 of 30 , Sep 7, 2005
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                        Baron Edward!

                        Greetings from Solveig! June Cleaver wearing pearls while vacuming was
                        a bit over the top even for the mid-50's. My mother wore a "house
                        dress" which you would never ever see June Cleaver wear while vacuming
                        and did not generally wear pearls while doing housework. Also, I do not
                        recall my father wearing a jacket while we ate dinner although he did
                        wear one to work. The big dress code revolution was pretty pervasive in
                        the 60's. Men started wearing coloured shirts and even short sleaved
                        shirts to work.

                        As for today, I have seen people wearing both nightwear and underwear
                        as outerwear on campus. I was very startled by the idea of people
                        wandering around their own houses naked until fairly recently.

                        All of that said, the notion that you do dress properly for things was
                        well enough ingrained in my psyche that after summoning the ambulance
                        which was soon to transport me unconscious to the hospital, I decided
                        that I needed to change from night clothes into outside clothes. This
                        led to rather unfortunate results when the rescue squad showed up.

                        > Jeans were work clothes.

                        Jeans were rather specialized work clothes or sportwear. Most workers
                        wore rather different clothing. People were wearing jeans as sportswear
                        by the 1940's or earlier. Actually one of the things that changed is
                        the general disappearance of uniforms. In the days of June Cleaver,
                        service station attendants, milk truck drivers, railroad engineers,
                        painters, and many other occupations had distinctive uniforms.

                        Your Humble Servant
                        Solveig Throndardottir
                        Amateur Scholar

                        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                        | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                        | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                        | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                        | the trash by my email filters. |
                        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


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                      • James Eckman
                        ... People dress up, just not the way your re used to. ... The concept of dress flip-flops seems like an oxymoron, but I ve heard serious discussions about it,
                        Message 11 of 30 , Sep 8, 2005
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                          > From: Anthony Bryant <anthony_bryant@...>
                          >
                          >
                          > From: Anthony Bryant <anthony_bryant@...>
                          >
                          >
                          >Why did we stop wearing hats? Why did we stop "dressing up" to do
                          >anything?
                          >
                          People dress up, just not the way your're used to.

                          >You didn't see people who weren't working the land wearing
                          >T-shirts in public in the 1940s and 1950s unless they were
                          >counter-culture elements (e.g., James Dean). Jeans were work clothes.
                          >Button down dress shirts (ties, jackets) were the social norm. Nowadays,
                          >we go to the theatre in jeans and a t-shirt and flip-flops. I've seen
                          >people on campus wearing what I would swear to have been pajamas.
                          >
                          >
                          The concept of dress flip-flops seems like an oxymoron, but I've heard
                          serious discussions about it, and of course there's always the dress
                          t-shirt, the one with the pocket ;)

                          >It's a sign of the coursening of society, IMHO.
                          >
                          ROTFL

                          >Remember "Leave it to
                          >Beaver" where the June Cleaver vaccuumed and cooked in a dress and
                          >pearls, and Ward wore a tie and jacket at his own dinner table? That
                          >really was a societal norm. It certainly was in my home.
                          >
                          >
                          Most people in the 60's and 70's drank more than they do nowadays, 100
                          years ago a bottle a day man was not an uncommon person. Is this part of
                          the refinement we are missing along with lynchings, women forced to stay
                          home, etc? Fashion is one of those transient things and really doesn't
                          have any real long term impact on society. Also the days of no SCA :(
                          Give me the good new days.

                          >Today, I walk around the house in sweatpants and a T-shirt, and it would
                          >kill my dad to have seen it. Those clothes, in his opinion, belong on
                          >the sports field or field house, not in public or as "daywear."
                          >
                          >
                          Lucky I had counter culture parents then...

                          > From: Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
                          >
                          >
                          >Why did ties become less popular in North America?
                          >
                          Because they are uncomfortable, dangerous and a pain in the ass? Just
                          the opinion of the fashion god of the nerds.

                          >Basically, there was
                          >a bit of a trend towards simplification in costume over the centuries
                          >in Japan. Further, as Baron Edward pointed out in one of his Pennsic
                          >classes, lower classes tended to adopt the leisure wear of the upper
                          >classes as their own formal wear.
                          >
                          >
                          Tuxedos come to mind.

                          >As for today, I have seen people wearing both nightwear and underwear
                          >as outerwear on campus. I was very startled by the idea of people
                          >wandering around their own houses naked until fairly recently.
                          >
                          >
                          Some of our Scandinavian neighbors were doing that in the late 50's,
                          welcome to the land of the Puritans.

                          Jim Eckman
                        • Solveig Throndardottir
                          Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... I was once told that in the 19th century, the floor of the U.S. Senate was generously equipped with a punch bowl full
                          Message 12 of 30 , Sep 8, 2005
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                            Noble Cousin!

                            Greetings from Solveig!

                            > Most people in the 60's and 70's drank more than they do nowadays, 100
                            > years ago a bottle a day man was not an uncommon person. Is this part
                            > of
                            > the refinement we are missing along with lynchings, women forced to
                            > stay
                            > home, etc? Fashion is one of those transient things and really doesn't
                            > have any real long term impact on society. Also the days of no SCA :(
                            > Give me the good new days.

                            I was once told that in the 19th century, the floor of the U.S. Senate
                            was generously equipped with a punch bowl full of whisky. At one time,
                            spittoons were common. Some nineteenth judges and other lawmen had the
                            habit of taking trophies from those apprehended in some case making
                            items of apparel or satchels out of body parts taken from those
                            executed. (This I have seen in a museum.) In nineteenth century
                            Montana, one town decided to steal the county seat from another town.
                            They succeeded, and the original county seat is now a ghost town. Then
                            again, there were those lovely battles between the Pinkertons and all
                            sorts of other groups including, in at least one incident in Ohio if I
                            recall correctly, the local constabulary.

                            > Some of our Scandinavian neighbors were doing that in the late 50's,
                            > welcome to the land of the Puritans.

                            I know not how reliable this story of the Puritans is, but I was once
                            told that the Puritans were tossed out of England for being obnoxious
                            in a variety of ways including apparently demonstrating their supposed
                            purity by parading around London in the buff. One thing that is pretty
                            certain about New England colonists is that they did not all live in
                            white houses. There are amusing cases of the boards of "historical"
                            societies in Lexington and Concord forbidding their owners from
                            painting their houses the colours which they were actually painted at
                            the time of the revolution instead mandating that they must be painted
                            "colonial white".

                            Your Humble Servant
                            Solveig Throndardottir
                            Amateur Scholar

                            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                            | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                            | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                            | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                            | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                            | the trash by my email filters. |
                            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


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