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RE: [SCA-JML] authentic Kimono pattern?

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  • Michael Wood
    ... I actually found a really good hakama pattern from one of the replies to an earlier post (or this post), it looks pretty straight forward:
    Message 1 of 30 , Sep 6, 2005
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      --- Ca-Rinn <Ca-Rinn@...> wrote:

      > So.. what would I do about pants? I cant afford much
      > more, since I have
      > to make his garb, some garb for myself (I have been
      > using gold key for
      > five freaking years for summer events because the
      > only thing I ever made
      > was a early spring late fall t-tunic), and a chemise
      > for my 4 month oldÂ…
      >
      > Im not a garb nazi (neither is Hideki-kun), so
      > anything really is cool
      > with us, as long as it is nice to our budget :-)
      >
      > Your humble Servants
      > Cairenn McGowan of Mugmort and Hideki

      I actually found a really good hakama pattern from one
      of the replies to an earlier post (or this post), it
      looks pretty straight forward:
      http://www.dementia.org/~djl/sca/japanese/patterns.html

      I tried it over the weekend and was pleased with the results.

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    • Solveig Throndardottir
      Baron Edward! Greetings from Solveig! ... I looked at a bunch of those. Several of them, as I recall, depict what are actually traveling clothes. Traveling
      Message 2 of 30 , Sep 6, 2005
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        Baron Edward!

        Greetings from Solveig!

        > How about
        > http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/20.htm
        > http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/22.htm
        > http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/index.htm
        > http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/kosode/index.htm
        > etc?
        >
        > Monks at their temple aren't exactly what I'd call "going out in
        > public."

        I looked at a bunch of those. Several of them, as I recall, depict what
        are actually traveling clothes. Traveling clothes are a distinct form
        of clothing which you see a fair amount of in pre-modern Japanese.
        Traveling clothes persisted in North America at least until the 1950's.
        Regardless, one of the pictures I referenced depicts a formally dressed
        high ranking buddhist cleric. The original issue was whether or not a
        "self-respecting" male would go without pants. I believe that the
        examples from the Costume Museum answer this question in the
        affirmative. Yes, indeed! Certain pretty high-ranking self-respecting
        premodern Japanese men would on certain formal occasions go without
        trousers.

        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar

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        | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
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      • Michael Wood
        ... I am so sorry I started this argument; I meant to help a new person to the SCA make her man look like he was a samurai, somehow kimono alone looks
        Message 3 of 30 , Sep 6, 2005
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          --- Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
          >The original issue was
          > whether or not a
          > "self-respecting" male would go without pants. I
          > believe that the
          > examples from the Costume Museum answer this
          > question in the
          > affirmative. Yes, indeed! Certain pretty
          > high-ranking self-respecting
          > premodern Japanese men would on certain formal
          > occasions go without
          > trousers.

          I am so sorry I started this argument; I meant to help
          a new person to the SCA make her man look like he was
          a samurai, somehow kimono alone looks incomplete. My
          terms were inappropriately general and vague. I read
          somewhere (be careful using undocumented sources) that
          a samurai would never attend a festival (SCA events
          being festivals) without pants. I have only studied
          some people of the "Sengoku" period, so my area of
          knowledge is truly quite small.

          In the future I will be more careful how I phrase
          things... "Look here for cool samurai pants too!"

          Sorry for the confusion


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        • Anthony Bryant
          ... I think you re conflating the issue of specialized uniforms (e.g., clerical work clothes ) with what the NORMAL person wore. Certainly historians of
          Message 4 of 30 , Sep 6, 2005
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            Solveig Throndardottir wrote:

            > I looked at a bunch of those. Several of them, as I recall, depict
            > what are actually traveling clothes. Traveling clothes are a distinct
            > form of clothing which you see a fair amount of in pre-modern
            > Japanese. Traveling clothes persisted in North America at least until
            > the 1950's. Regardless, one of the pictures I referenced depicts a
            > formally dressed high ranking buddhist cleric. The original issue was
            > whether or not a "self-respecting" male would go without pants. I
            > believe that the examples from the Costume Museum answer this
            > question in the affirmative. Yes, indeed! Certain pretty high-ranking
            > self-respecting premodern Japanese men would on certain formal
            > occasions go without trousers.

            I think you're conflating the issue of specialized uniforms (e.g.,
            clerical "work clothes") with what the NORMAL person wore.

            Certainly historians of Japanese clothing and fashion (e.g., Suzuki
            Keizo, Sato Yasuko, and Kawabata Yasuhide) fall on my side. In fact, if
            I remember the source correctly, the bit about dignified men not going
            out without pants is a near direct quote from Kawabata in Yusoku kojitsu
            zufu."

            Effingham
          • Solveig Throndardottir
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Bushi indeed frequently went about in hakama. I am sorry if I distressed you. I was simply responding to what I
            Message 5 of 30 , Sep 7, 2005
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              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig!

              > I am so sorry I started this argument; I meant to help
              > a new person to the SCA make her man look like he was
              > a samurai, somehow kimono alone looks incomplete.

              Bushi indeed frequently went about in hakama. I am sorry if I
              distressed you. I was simply responding to what I viewed as an overly
              categorical statement.

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar

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              | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
              | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
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            • Solveig Throndardottir
              Baron Edward! Greetings from Solveig! ... As you well know, the Japanese love uniforms. So, uniforms were hardly unique to the clergy. At least one of the
              Message 6 of 30 , Sep 7, 2005
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                Baron Edward!

                Greetings from Solveig!

                > I think you're conflating the issue of specialized uniforms (e.g.,
                > clerical "work clothes") with what the NORMAL person wore.

                As you well know, the Japanese love uniforms. So, uniforms were hardly
                unique to the clergy. At least one of the illustrations at the costume
                museum which I referenced would be better characterized as "ceremonial
                clothing" than "work clothes". Regardless, as I already mentioned to
                the unwitting and unfortunate instigator of this recent exchange
                between us, I was simply responding to what was phrased as a blanket
                statement. As for the high ranking clerics in question, they were most
                definitely "dignified men". If anything, high ranking clerics were
                frequently satirized for their attachment to splendid robes. As for the
                political status of some of these clerics, I refer you to "Heavenly
                Warriors" and other similar books about the Kamakura and Muromachi
                periods. Some of these clerics effectively held rank equivalent to that
                of a provincial governor.

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar

                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
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              • Anthony Bryant
                ... Again.... If you want to take that view, fine. But clerical types do NOT count as typical people in terms of dress or style when they are in their outfits.
                Message 7 of 30 , Sep 7, 2005
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                  Solveig Throndardottir wrote:

                  > Baron Edward!
                  >
                  > Greetings from Solveig!
                  >
                  > > I think you're conflating the issue of specialized uniforms (e.g.,
                  > > clerical "work clothes") with what the NORMAL person wore.
                  >
                  > As you well know, the Japanese love uniforms. So, uniforms were hardly
                  > unique to the clergy. At least one of the illustrations at the costume
                  > museum which I referenced would be better characterized as "ceremonial
                  > clothing" than "work clothes". Regardless, as I already mentioned to
                  > the unwitting and unfortunate instigator of this recent exchange
                  > between us, I was simply responding to what was phrased as a blanket
                  > statement. As for the high ranking clerics in question, they were most
                  > definitely "dignified men". If anything, high ranking clerics were
                  > frequently satirized for their attachment to splendid robes. As for the
                  > political status of some of these clerics, I refer you to "Heavenly
                  > Warriors" and other similar books about the Kamakura and Muromachi
                  > periods. Some of these clerics effectively held rank equivalent to that
                  > of a provincial governor.
                  >
                  Again....

                  If you want to take that view, fine. But clerical types do NOT count as
                  typical people in terms of dress or style when they are in their outfits.

                  Normal people -- samurai, peasants, artisans, merchants, what have you
                  -- did NOT as a rule go about without some semblance of pants until the
                  early Edo or REALLY REALLY REALLY late in period. It. Was. Just. Not. Done.


                  Effingham
                • Otagiri Tatsuzou
                  ... Not. Done. ... Why did they stop wearing pants? Otagiri
                  Message 8 of 30 , Sep 7, 2005
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                    > Normal people -- samurai, peasants, artisans, merchants, what have you
                    > -- did NOT as a rule go about without some semblance of pants until the
                    > early Edo or REALLY REALLY REALLY late in period. It. Was. Just.
                    Not. Done.
                    >
                    >


                    Why did they stop wearing pants?


                    Otagiri
                  • Anthony Bryant
                    ... Why did we stop wearing hats? Why did we stop dressing up to do anything? You didn t see people who weren t working the land wearing T-shirts in public
                    Message 9 of 30 , Sep 7, 2005
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                      Otagiri Tatsuzou wrote:

                      > Why did they stop wearing pants?


                      Why did we stop wearing hats? Why did we stop "dressing up" to do
                      anything? You didn't see people who weren't working the land wearing
                      T-shirts in public in the 1940s and 1950s unless they were
                      counter-culture elements (e.g., James Dean). Jeans were work clothes.
                      Button down dress shirts (ties, jackets) were the social norm. Nowadays,
                      we go to the theatre in jeans and a t-shirt and flip-flops. I've seen
                      people on campus wearing what I would swear to have been pajamas.

                      It's a sign of the coursening of society, IMHO. Remember "Leave it to
                      Beaver" where the June Cleaver vaccuumed and cooked in a dress and
                      pearls, and Ward wore a tie and jacket at his own dinner table? That
                      really was a societal norm. It certainly was in my home.

                      Today, I walk around the house in sweatpants and a T-shirt, and it would
                      kill my dad to have seen it. Those clothes, in his opinion, belong on
                      the sports field or field house, not in public or as "daywear."


                      Effingham
                    • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                      ... I m not certain we can say why, for certain, other than that fashion changed. I would hazard a guess that walking around in simply a kosode was just a way
                      Message 10 of 30 , Sep 7, 2005
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                        On 9/7/05, Otagiri Tatsuzou <ronbroberg@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > Normal people -- samurai, peasants, artisans, merchants, what have you
                        > > -- did NOT as a rule go about without some semblance of pants until the
                        > > early Edo or REALLY REALLY REALLY late in period. It. Was. Just.
                        > Not. Done.
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        > Why did they stop wearing pants?
                        >
                        >
                        > Otagiri

                        I'm not certain we can say why, for certain, other than that fashion
                        changed.
                        I would hazard a guess that walking around in simply a kosode was just a
                        way of 'bumming around' the house. It may have also been something that
                        working stiffs did--especially if you are working in summer on a hot day. In
                        some later Edo Period woodblock prints I also notice what appears to be
                        another, fancy 'modesty' garment (looks like the front flap of a fundoshi
                        that has been elaborately embroidered and tasseled, in one
                        instance)--possibly the response to wearing no pants.
                        I get the impression from the paintings that this is often similar to
                        rolling down one's chausses in a European setting.
                        In "Arrival of the 'Southern Barbarians'" (Anonymous, c. 1600, Leonard C.
                        Hann Jr. Fund 1960.193.1-2) there is a mix of laymen with hakama and
                        without. I'd say that hakama are definitely in the majority (well, the
                        nanban's pantaloons are, but that's a different matter). In some instances,
                        it may just be that the hakama are the same color as the kosode--it is hard
                        to make out. Only one layman, that I can clearly make out definitely is not
                        wearing hakama. I can't be sure if it is a bushi or a merchant.
                        By the first half of the 17th century we have Kano Einou's "Views of Lake
                        Biwa" (J. H. Wade Fund 1983.19.1-2). It shows several laymen without hakama,
                        although they seem to often have kyahan (leg wraps) on.
                        In the "Hikone Screen" (c. 1630-1645, Hikone Castle Museum, Shiga
                        Prefecture) we see a samurai dandy leaning on his sword (like a cane), hips
                        out, and relaxed, with what appears to be just a couple of layers of kosode.
                        It is hard to tell, but others in the seen are wearing hakama, and the
                        person in question appears to be quite young. Probably a youth, flirting
                        witha couple of ladies.
                        In "Ammusements in a Mansion" (c. 1640s, Private Collection), many of the
                        men are shown in just kosode style garments--in fact, the style of dress
                        between men and women is extremely unisex, including the medium-width obi.
                        Some older gentlemen are wearing pants, as are many of the samurai about to
                        enter, although two bushi appear to be wearing furisode--the long sleeved
                        kosode often worn by unmarried women, modernly. The entire scene, I should
                        note, seems to have something sexual, and in parts possibly homoerotic, to
                        it.
                        Add to this the ages old tradition of 'putting on the trousers' as a
                        special day in a young boy's progression towards manhood, and the lack of
                        hakama for many working classes, leads me to put forward the following
                        hypothesis:
                        As the lower classes were able to attain rank, they brought their clothes
                        with them. Notice that this happened when the bushi first rose to
                        prominence, with the hitatare becoming a rich garment. Likewise, the doubuku
                        appears to have possibly come from the merchant class.
                        Perhaps the lower ranks of the samurai--drawn from provincial farmer-bushi
                        and ashigaru--brought this working style with them? On top of that, it seems
                        that you see pictures of this style in brothels and 'the floating world',
                        especially among youths. It definitely seems to emphasize the effeminate
                        qualities. It may have been the equivalent of wearing your pants so low that
                        your underwear is seen--only in this case, there are no pants at all.
                        Just some thoughts.
                        It should be noted that whenever I saw people dressed up for formal
                        affairs, they still had hakama, and hakama are seen more often than not, so
                        it definitely seems to be the more formal and respected outfit.
                        -Ii
                        -Ii


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Solveig Throndardottir
                        Otagiri dono! Greetings from Solvieg! ... Why did ties become less popular in North America? Basically, there was a bit of a trend towards simplification in
                        Message 11 of 30 , Sep 7, 2005
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                          Otagiri dono!

                          Greetings from Solvieg!

                          > Why did they stop wearing pants?

                          Why did ties become less popular in North America? Basically, there was
                          a bit of a trend towards simplification in costume over the centuries
                          in Japan. Further, as Baron Edward pointed out in one of his Pennsic
                          classes, lower classes tended to adopt the leisure wear of the upper
                          classes as their own formal wear.

                          Your Humble Servant
                          Solveig Throndardottir
                          Amateur Scholar

                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                          | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                          | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
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                        • Solveig Throndardottir
                          Baron Edward! Greetings from Solveig! June Cleaver wearing pearls while vacuming was a bit over the top even for the mid-50 s. My mother wore a house dress
                          Message 12 of 30 , Sep 7, 2005
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                            Baron Edward!

                            Greetings from Solveig! June Cleaver wearing pearls while vacuming was
                            a bit over the top even for the mid-50's. My mother wore a "house
                            dress" which you would never ever see June Cleaver wear while vacuming
                            and did not generally wear pearls while doing housework. Also, I do not
                            recall my father wearing a jacket while we ate dinner although he did
                            wear one to work. The big dress code revolution was pretty pervasive in
                            the 60's. Men started wearing coloured shirts and even short sleaved
                            shirts to work.

                            As for today, I have seen people wearing both nightwear and underwear
                            as outerwear on campus. I was very startled by the idea of people
                            wandering around their own houses naked until fairly recently.

                            All of that said, the notion that you do dress properly for things was
                            well enough ingrained in my psyche that after summoning the ambulance
                            which was soon to transport me unconscious to the hospital, I decided
                            that I needed to change from night clothes into outside clothes. This
                            led to rather unfortunate results when the rescue squad showed up.

                            > Jeans were work clothes.

                            Jeans were rather specialized work clothes or sportwear. Most workers
                            wore rather different clothing. People were wearing jeans as sportswear
                            by the 1940's or earlier. Actually one of the things that changed is
                            the general disappearance of uniforms. In the days of June Cleaver,
                            service station attendants, milk truck drivers, railroad engineers,
                            painters, and many other occupations had distinctive uniforms.

                            Your Humble Servant
                            Solveig Throndardottir
                            Amateur Scholar

                            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                            | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                            | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
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                          • James Eckman
                            ... People dress up, just not the way your re used to. ... The concept of dress flip-flops seems like an oxymoron, but I ve heard serious discussions about it,
                            Message 13 of 30 , Sep 8, 2005
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                              > From: Anthony Bryant <anthony_bryant@...>
                              >
                              >
                              > From: Anthony Bryant <anthony_bryant@...>
                              >
                              >
                              >Why did we stop wearing hats? Why did we stop "dressing up" to do
                              >anything?
                              >
                              People dress up, just not the way your're used to.

                              >You didn't see people who weren't working the land wearing
                              >T-shirts in public in the 1940s and 1950s unless they were
                              >counter-culture elements (e.g., James Dean). Jeans were work clothes.
                              >Button down dress shirts (ties, jackets) were the social norm. Nowadays,
                              >we go to the theatre in jeans and a t-shirt and flip-flops. I've seen
                              >people on campus wearing what I would swear to have been pajamas.
                              >
                              >
                              The concept of dress flip-flops seems like an oxymoron, but I've heard
                              serious discussions about it, and of course there's always the dress
                              t-shirt, the one with the pocket ;)

                              >It's a sign of the coursening of society, IMHO.
                              >
                              ROTFL

                              >Remember "Leave it to
                              >Beaver" where the June Cleaver vaccuumed and cooked in a dress and
                              >pearls, and Ward wore a tie and jacket at his own dinner table? That
                              >really was a societal norm. It certainly was in my home.
                              >
                              >
                              Most people in the 60's and 70's drank more than they do nowadays, 100
                              years ago a bottle a day man was not an uncommon person. Is this part of
                              the refinement we are missing along with lynchings, women forced to stay
                              home, etc? Fashion is one of those transient things and really doesn't
                              have any real long term impact on society. Also the days of no SCA :(
                              Give me the good new days.

                              >Today, I walk around the house in sweatpants and a T-shirt, and it would
                              >kill my dad to have seen it. Those clothes, in his opinion, belong on
                              >the sports field or field house, not in public or as "daywear."
                              >
                              >
                              Lucky I had counter culture parents then...

                              > From: Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
                              >
                              >
                              >Why did ties become less popular in North America?
                              >
                              Because they are uncomfortable, dangerous and a pain in the ass? Just
                              the opinion of the fashion god of the nerds.

                              >Basically, there was
                              >a bit of a trend towards simplification in costume over the centuries
                              >in Japan. Further, as Baron Edward pointed out in one of his Pennsic
                              >classes, lower classes tended to adopt the leisure wear of the upper
                              >classes as their own formal wear.
                              >
                              >
                              Tuxedos come to mind.

                              >As for today, I have seen people wearing both nightwear and underwear
                              >as outerwear on campus. I was very startled by the idea of people
                              >wandering around their own houses naked until fairly recently.
                              >
                              >
                              Some of our Scandinavian neighbors were doing that in the late 50's,
                              welcome to the land of the Puritans.

                              Jim Eckman
                            • Solveig Throndardottir
                              Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... I was once told that in the 19th century, the floor of the U.S. Senate was generously equipped with a punch bowl full
                              Message 14 of 30 , Sep 8, 2005
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                                Noble Cousin!

                                Greetings from Solveig!

                                > Most people in the 60's and 70's drank more than they do nowadays, 100
                                > years ago a bottle a day man was not an uncommon person. Is this part
                                > of
                                > the refinement we are missing along with lynchings, women forced to
                                > stay
                                > home, etc? Fashion is one of those transient things and really doesn't
                                > have any real long term impact on society. Also the days of no SCA :(
                                > Give me the good new days.

                                I was once told that in the 19th century, the floor of the U.S. Senate
                                was generously equipped with a punch bowl full of whisky. At one time,
                                spittoons were common. Some nineteenth judges and other lawmen had the
                                habit of taking trophies from those apprehended in some case making
                                items of apparel or satchels out of body parts taken from those
                                executed. (This I have seen in a museum.) In nineteenth century
                                Montana, one town decided to steal the county seat from another town.
                                They succeeded, and the original county seat is now a ghost town. Then
                                again, there were those lovely battles between the Pinkertons and all
                                sorts of other groups including, in at least one incident in Ohio if I
                                recall correctly, the local constabulary.

                                > Some of our Scandinavian neighbors were doing that in the late 50's,
                                > welcome to the land of the Puritans.

                                I know not how reliable this story of the Puritans is, but I was once
                                told that the Puritans were tossed out of England for being obnoxious
                                in a variety of ways including apparently demonstrating their supposed
                                purity by parading around London in the buff. One thing that is pretty
                                certain about New England colonists is that they did not all live in
                                white houses. There are amusing cases of the boards of "historical"
                                societies in Lexington and Concord forbidding their owners from
                                painting their houses the colours which they were actually painted at
                                the time of the revolution instead mandating that they must be painted
                                "colonial white".

                                Your Humble Servant
                                Solveig Throndardottir
                                Amateur Scholar

                                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                                | the trash by my email filters. |
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