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Re: [SCA-JML] authentic Kimono pattern?

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  • Michael Wood
    ... http://store.sewingtoday.com/cgi-bin/butterick/shop.cgi?s.item.B6698==x&TI=013&page= ... Look here: http://www.folkwear.com/asian.html As no self
    Message 1 of 30 , Sep 2, 2005
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      --- Ca-Rinn <Ca-Rinn@...> wrote:

      >
      http://store.sewingtoday.com/cgi-bin/butterick/shop.cgi?s.item.B6698==x&TI=013&page=
      >
      > is the Men�s kimono pattern shown there
      > accurate, I�m making it for my
      > fiancée for his first event, he wants a Japanese
      > persona, and since mine
      > is Irish, I don�t know much about Japanese
      > garb (I have only met one
      > person in the society with a Japanese persona, and
      > it was a very brief
      > meeting)
      >
      > Many Thank yous in advance
      > Your Humble Servant,
      > Cairenn McGowan of Mugmort
      Look here:
      http://www.folkwear.com/asian.html
      As no self respecting man in japan in period would
      wear a kimono without pants of some kind.

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    • Jennifer Kobayashi
      ... http://store.sewingtoday.com/cgi-bin/butterick/shop.cgi?s.item.B6698==x&TI=013&page= ... accurate, I�m making it for my ... Gracious lady, Before you
      Message 2 of 30 , Sep 2, 2005
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        --- Ca-Rinn <Ca-Rinn@...> wrote:
        >
        http://store.sewingtoday.com/cgi-bin/butterick/shop.cgi?s.item.B6698==x&TI=013&page=
        > is the Men�s kimono pattern shown ther
        accurate, I�m making it for my
        > fiancée for his first event, he wants a Japanese
        > persona, and since mine
        > is Irish, I don�t know much about Japanese
        > garb (I have only met one
        > person in the society with a Japanese persona, and
        > it was a very brief
        > meeting)
        >
        > Many Thank yous in advance
        > Your Humble Servant,
        > Cairenn McGowan of Mugmort
        >
        Gracious lady,
        Before you invest time and effort in a modern kimono
        pattern from buttrick or folkwear, may I humbly
        suggest you peruse the useful information at:
        http://www.geocities.com/wodeford/KosodeMadeSimple.htm
        for instructions on a kosode (kimono with small
        sleeves) and lots of other great stuff

        http://www.geocities.com/anne_liese_w/Japanese/japindex.htm
        an overview of outfits and instructions for making

        the garb files under the files section for this group
        (sca-jml): including hakama1 (pants)

        as well as
        http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/japanese/Jap123s.html
        and a wealth of information at
        http://www.sengokudaimyo.com
        and many pictures of appropriate outfits at:
        http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/

        Although a modern kimono pattern can be useful for
        figuring out the construction, the proportions are not
        correct for a period garment. I hope the above
        information is helpful. Good luck and best wishes,

        Ki no Izumi called Kobayashi


        - Jennifer



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      • Elaine Koogler
        ... If you check out the Yahoogroups site for SCA-JML, there is a files section where there is information about Japanese garb. Also, check out the following
        Message 3 of 30 , Sep 2, 2005
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          Michael Wood wrote:

          >
          >
          > --- Ca-Rinn <Ca-Rinn@...> wrote:
          >
          > >
          > http://store.sewingtoday.com/cgi-bin/butterick/shop.cgi?s.item.B6698==x&TI=013&page=
          > <http://store.sewingtoday.com/cgi-bin/butterick/shop.cgi?s.item.B6698==x&TI=%10013&page=%10>
          > >
          > > is the Men�s kimono pattern shown there
          > > accurate, I�m making it for my
          > > fiancée for his first event, he wants a Japanese
          > > persona, and since mine
          > > is Irish, I don�t know much about Japanese
          > > garb (I have only met one
          > > person in the society with a Japanese persona, and
          > > it was a very brief
          > > meeting)
          > >
          > > Many Thank yous in advance
          > > Your Humble Servant,
          > > Cairenn McGowan of Mugmort
          > Look here:
          > http://www.folkwear.com/asian.html
          > As no self respecting man in japan in period would
          > wear a kimono without pants of some kind.

          If you check out the Yahoogroups site for SCA-JML, there is a files
          section where there is information about Japanese garb. Also, check out
          the following sites:

          http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/
          http://www.dementia.org/~djl/sca/japanese/patterns.html
          http://www.geocities.com/anne_liese_w/Japanese/japoutfits.htm
          http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/garb/garb.html

          Any of these have great information, some with patterns, for Japanese
          garb of various types. The first is a museum that has models wearing
          various types of garb from historic Japanese sources. I highly
          recommend checking it out to help figure out exactly what you want. I
          am far from an expert, but am willing to help in any way I can.

          Kiri
        • Ca-Rinn
          So.. what would I do about pants? I cant afford much more, since I have to make his garb, some garb for myself (I have been using gold key for five freaking
          Message 4 of 30 , Sep 2, 2005
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            So.. what would I do about pants? I cant afford much more, since I have
            to make his garb, some garb for myself (I have been using gold key for
            five freaking years for summer events because the only thing I ever made
            was a early spring late fall t-tunic), and a chemise for my 4 month old…

            Im not a garb nazi (neither is Hideki-kun), so anything really is cool
            with us, as long as it is nice to our budget :-)

            Your humble Servants
            Cairenn McGowan of Mugmort and Hideki

            -----Original Message-----
            From: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sca-jml@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            Of Michael Wood
            Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 10:42 AM
            To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] authentic Kimono pattern?



            --- Ca-Rinn <Ca-Rinn@...> wrote:

            >
            HYPERLINK
            "http://store.sewingtoday.com/cgi-bin/butterick/shop.cgi?s.item.B6698==x
            &TI=%10013&page=%10"http://store.sewingtoday.com/cgi-bin/butterick/shop.
            cgi?s.item.B6698==x&TI=013&page=
            >
            > is the Men�s kimono pattern shown there
            > accurate, I�m making it for my
            > fiancée for his first event, he wants a Japanese
            > persona, and since mine
            > is Irish, I don�t know much about Japanese
            > garb (I have only met one
            > person in the society with a Japanese persona, and
            > it was a very brief
            > meeting)
            >
            > Many Thank yous in advance
            > Your Humble Servant,
            > Cairenn McGowan of Mugmort
            Look here:
            HYPERLINK
            "http://www.folkwear.com/asian.html"http://www.folkwear.com/asian.html
            As no self respecting man in japan in period would
            wear a kimono without pants of some kind.

            __________________________________________________
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          • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
            Pants are called hakama , and Hiraizumi-dono has a good pattern that is pretty easy and cheats by using the full width of the fabric. Check it out in the
            Message 5 of 30 , Sep 3, 2005
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              Pants are called 'hakama', and Hiraizumi-dono has a good pattern that is
              pretty easy and cheats by using the full width of the fabric. Check it out
              in the 'files' section:

              http://f2.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/MIIZQ7ftfRMQBGJjJO4gDQtUl_XweE7l3h6VL0wjlbryqnRblm7EPfNuvQqqD7OpH2lSUXg8Xri4UQfPdyfC/Garb%
              (If the link doesn't work, navigate to 'http://groups.yahoo.com', go to
              SCA-JML, and then click on 'Files' and 'Garb Files'
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/files/Garb%20files/)
              The kosode links were already listed.
              Most of these pieces are simply rectangles. The most difficult pieces are:
              1) Okumi -- this is the extra 'flap' that covers the front (and helps keep
              things modest). It is only difficult because it is a huge trapezoid that I
              always find to be a terrible pain to properly measure out, since I never
              have a straightedge long enough.
              2) Attaching the collar -- the collar, or 'eri', can be somewhat difficult
              to turn at the corner.
              Those are probably the most difficult thing with most Japanese clothing--no
              complex curves or anything like that.
              -Ii

              On 9/3/05, Ca-Rinn <Ca-Rinn@...> wrote:
              >
              > So.. what would I do about pants? I cant afford much more, since I have
              > to make his garb, some garb for myself (I have been using gold key for
              > five freaking years for summer events because the only thing I ever made
              > was a early spring late fall t-tunic), and a chemise for my 4 month old�
              >
              > Im not a garb nazi (neither is Hideki-kun), so anything really is cool
              > with us, as long as it is nice to our budget :-)
              >
              > Your humble Servants
              > Cairenn McGowan of Mugmort and Hideki


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Elaine Koogler
              ... Again, go to the links we ve sent. I know that one of the links I sent has a pattern for the hakama(pants). To be honest, once you get past measuring the
              Message 6 of 30 , Sep 3, 2005
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                Ca-Rinn wrote:

                > So.. what would I do about pants? I cant afford much more, since I have
                > to make his garb, some garb for myself (I have been using gold key for
                > five freaking years for summer events because the only thing I ever made
                > was a early spring late fall t-tunic), and a chemise for my 4 month old…
                >
                > Im not a garb nazi (neither is Hideki-kun), so anything really is cool
                > with us, as long as it is nice to our budget :-)
                >
                > Your humble Servants
                > Cairenn McGowan of Mugmort and Hideki
                >
                Again, go to the links we've sent. I know that one of the links I sent
                has a pattern for the hakama(pants). To be honest, once you get past
                measuring the fabric to get the pleats in, they are the easiest thing of
                all to make. The great thing about Japanese garb is that the basic
                "stuff" (kosode, hakama) are quite simple to cut out and make...for the
                most part, straight seams, and not that many of them!

                Kiri
              • Solveig Throndardottir
                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Huh? Since when? Your Humble Servant Solveig Throndardottir Amateur Scholar
                Message 7 of 30 , Sep 5, 2005
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                  Noble Cousin!

                  Greetings from Solveig!

                  > Look here:
                  > http://www.folkwear.com/asian.html
                  > As no self respecting man in japan in period would
                  > wear a kimono without pants of some kind.

                  Huh? Since when?

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar

                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                  | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                  | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
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                • Anthony Bryant
                  ... I d say since sometime in the Heian period. Dressing without some kind of pants was the height of leisure wear until either so late in period as to be
                  Message 8 of 30 , Sep 5, 2005
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                    Solveig Throndardottir wrote:

                    > Noble Cousin!
                    >
                    > Greetings from Solveig!
                    >
                    > > Look here:
                    > > http://www.folkwear.com/asian.html
                    > > As no self respecting man in japan in period would
                    > > wear a kimono without pants of some kind.
                    >
                    > Huh? Since when?
                    >
                    I'd say since sometime in the Heian period. Dressing without some kind
                    of pants was the height of "leisure wear" until either so late in period
                    as to be unnoticable or sometime in early Edo. Only peasants didn't wear
                    pants -- and even they tended to wear SOME kind of pants if they could.
                    Now, if you're working in the mud, an excuse might be made, but...

                    Effingham
                  • Solveig Throndardottir
                    Baron Edward! Greetings from Solveig! ... Let s see. Admittedly the Heian period say members of the kuge class of both genders tended to wear not one, but
                    Message 9 of 30 , Sep 5, 2005
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                      Baron Edward!

                      Greetings from Solveig!

                      > I'd say since sometime in the Heian period. Dressing without some kind
                      > of pants was the height of "leisure wear" until either so late in
                      > period
                      > as to be unnoticable or sometime in early Edo. Only peasants didn't
                      > wear
                      > pants -- and even they tended to wear SOME kind of pants if they could.
                      > Now, if you're working in the mud, an excuse might be made, but...

                      Let's see. Admittedly the Heian period say members of the kuge class of
                      both genders tended to wear not one, but often two sets of pants.
                      However, there is a lot more out there than just kuge and buge formal
                      wear. How about monks?

                      Your Humble Servant
                      Solveig Throndardottir
                      Amateur Scholar

                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                      | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                      | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                      | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
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                    • Solveig Throndardottir
                      Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/2.htm http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/31.htm Your Humble
                      Message 10 of 30 , Sep 5, 2005
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                        Noble Cousins!

                        Greetings from Solveig!

                        http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/2.htm
                        http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/31.htm

                        Your Humble Servant
                        Solveig Throndardottir
                        Amateur Scholar

                        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                        | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                        | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
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                        | the trash by my email filters. |
                        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


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                      • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                        I would say there are several issues with using monks when talking about pants: 1) Monks are supposed to have removed themselves from the world. In some ways,
                        Message 11 of 30 , Sep 5, 2005
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                          I would say there are several issues with using monks when talking about
                          pants:
                          1) Monks are supposed to have removed themselves from the world. In some
                          ways, you could say that 'self-respecting' shouldn't apply since they should
                          have rid themselves (or be trying to) of their ego. ;)
                          2) Their clothing is distinctive in its form and shape--in this case, the
                          lack of pants being a primary component (perhaps due to an attempt to get a
                          more 'Indian' look?). I would see it more as ceremonial wear rather than the
                          clothing of choice.
                          3) The robes of the monks (doufuku, houfuku, kyuutai, etc.) seem to usually
                          have an attached 'skirt' of pleats around them. This could possibly be the
                          replacement for hakama, allowing the garment to be fuller down towards the
                          legs and feet so that it has more flexibility while moving.
                          I believe, however, that it is sufficient to say that any self-respecting,
                          male layman of the kuge or buke would be wearing hakama in order to be
                          fully-dressed, with the possible exception of some extremely late-period
                          dandies.
                          -Ii


                          On 9/5/05, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Noble Cousins!
                          >
                          > Greetings from Solveig!
                          >
                          > http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/2.htm
                          > http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/31.htm
                          >
                          > Your Humble Servant
                          > Solveig Throndardottir
                          > Amateur Scholar
                          >
                          > +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          > | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                          > | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                          > | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                          > +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          > | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                          > | the trash by my email filters. |
                          > +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          >
                          >
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                          >
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                        • Anthony Bryant
                          ... Yup. See kukuri bakama and so on. Effingham
                          Message 12 of 30 , Sep 5, 2005
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                            Solveig Throndardottir wrote:

                            >
                            > Let's see. Admittedly the Heian period say members of the kuge class of
                            > both genders tended to wear not one, but often two sets of pants.
                            > However, there is a lot more out there than just kuge and buge formal
                            > wear. How about monks?

                            Yup. See "kukuri bakama" and so on.

                            Effingham
                          • Anthony Bryant
                            ... I grant you those. How about http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/20.htm http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/22.htm
                            Message 13 of 30 , Sep 5, 2005
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                            • sigrune@aol.com
                              ... True, if one take a look to late Edo Early Meiji period photographs, and illustrations of street sceens one can see a good number of men walking around
                              Message 14 of 30 , Sep 6, 2005
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                                In a message dated 9/5/2005 7:34:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Anthony Bryant <anthony_bryant@...> writes:

                                >...I'd say since sometime in the Heian period. Dressing without some
                                >kind of pants was the height of "leisure wear" until either so
                                >late in period as to be unnoticable or sometime in early Edo...

                                True, if one take a look to late Edo Early Meiji period photographs, and illustrations of street sceens one can see a good number of men walking around pantless. As to them being samurai or wealthy townsmen (artisans and merchants) I am not sure because they are shown wearing only a wakizashi or no sword at all. It was supposedly a fasion of the "floating world" followers, i.e. barhoppers. :)

                                -Takeda
                              • Michael Wood
                                ... I actually found a really good hakama pattern from one of the replies to an earlier post (or this post), it looks pretty straight forward:
                                Message 15 of 30 , Sep 6, 2005
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                                  --- Ca-Rinn <Ca-Rinn@...> wrote:

                                  > So.. what would I do about pants? I cant afford much
                                  > more, since I have
                                  > to make his garb, some garb for myself (I have been
                                  > using gold key for
                                  > five freaking years for summer events because the
                                  > only thing I ever made
                                  > was a early spring late fall t-tunic), and a chemise
                                  > for my 4 month old…
                                  >
                                  > Im not a garb nazi (neither is Hideki-kun), so
                                  > anything really is cool
                                  > with us, as long as it is nice to our budget :-)
                                  >
                                  > Your humble Servants
                                  > Cairenn McGowan of Mugmort and Hideki

                                  I actually found a really good hakama pattern from one
                                  of the replies to an earlier post (or this post), it
                                  looks pretty straight forward:
                                  http://www.dementia.org/~djl/sca/japanese/patterns.html

                                  I tried it over the weekend and was pleased with the results.

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                                • Solveig Throndardottir
                                  Baron Edward! Greetings from Solveig! ... I looked at a bunch of those. Several of them, as I recall, depict what are actually traveling clothes. Traveling
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Sep 6, 2005
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                                    Baron Edward!

                                    Greetings from Solveig!

                                    > How about
                                    > http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/20.htm
                                    > http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/22.htm
                                    > http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/index.htm
                                    > http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/kosode/index.htm
                                    > etc?
                                    >
                                    > Monks at their temple aren't exactly what I'd call "going out in
                                    > public."

                                    I looked at a bunch of those. Several of them, as I recall, depict what
                                    are actually traveling clothes. Traveling clothes are a distinct form
                                    of clothing which you see a fair amount of in pre-modern Japanese.
                                    Traveling clothes persisted in North America at least until the 1950's.
                                    Regardless, one of the pictures I referenced depicts a formally dressed
                                    high ranking buddhist cleric. The original issue was whether or not a
                                    "self-respecting" male would go without pants. I believe that the
                                    examples from the Costume Museum answer this question in the
                                    affirmative. Yes, indeed! Certain pretty high-ranking self-respecting
                                    premodern Japanese men would on certain formal occasions go without
                                    trousers.

                                    Your Humble Servant
                                    Solveig Throndardottir
                                    Amateur Scholar

                                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                    | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                    | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                    | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
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                                  • Michael Wood
                                    ... I am so sorry I started this argument; I meant to help a new person to the SCA make her man look like he was a samurai, somehow kimono alone looks
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Sep 6, 2005
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                                      --- Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
                                      >The original issue was
                                      > whether or not a
                                      > "self-respecting" male would go without pants. I
                                      > believe that the
                                      > examples from the Costume Museum answer this
                                      > question in the
                                      > affirmative. Yes, indeed! Certain pretty
                                      > high-ranking self-respecting
                                      > premodern Japanese men would on certain formal
                                      > occasions go without
                                      > trousers.

                                      I am so sorry I started this argument; I meant to help
                                      a new person to the SCA make her man look like he was
                                      a samurai, somehow kimono alone looks incomplete. My
                                      terms were inappropriately general and vague. I read
                                      somewhere (be careful using undocumented sources) that
                                      a samurai would never attend a festival (SCA events
                                      being festivals) without pants. I have only studied
                                      some people of the "Sengoku" period, so my area of
                                      knowledge is truly quite small.

                                      In the future I will be more careful how I phrase
                                      things... "Look here for cool samurai pants too!"

                                      Sorry for the confusion


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                                    • Anthony Bryant
                                      ... I think you re conflating the issue of specialized uniforms (e.g., clerical work clothes ) with what the NORMAL person wore. Certainly historians of
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Sep 6, 2005
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                                        Solveig Throndardottir wrote:

                                        > I looked at a bunch of those. Several of them, as I recall, depict
                                        > what are actually traveling clothes. Traveling clothes are a distinct
                                        > form of clothing which you see a fair amount of in pre-modern
                                        > Japanese. Traveling clothes persisted in North America at least until
                                        > the 1950's. Regardless, one of the pictures I referenced depicts a
                                        > formally dressed high ranking buddhist cleric. The original issue was
                                        > whether or not a "self-respecting" male would go without pants. I
                                        > believe that the examples from the Costume Museum answer this
                                        > question in the affirmative. Yes, indeed! Certain pretty high-ranking
                                        > self-respecting premodern Japanese men would on certain formal
                                        > occasions go without trousers.

                                        I think you're conflating the issue of specialized uniforms (e.g.,
                                        clerical "work clothes") with what the NORMAL person wore.

                                        Certainly historians of Japanese clothing and fashion (e.g., Suzuki
                                        Keizo, Sato Yasuko, and Kawabata Yasuhide) fall on my side. In fact, if
                                        I remember the source correctly, the bit about dignified men not going
                                        out without pants is a near direct quote from Kawabata in Yusoku kojitsu
                                        zufu."

                                        Effingham
                                      • Solveig Throndardottir
                                        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Bushi indeed frequently went about in hakama. I am sorry if I distressed you. I was simply responding to what I
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Sep 7, 2005
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                                          Noble Cousin!

                                          Greetings from Solveig!

                                          > I am so sorry I started this argument; I meant to help
                                          > a new person to the SCA make her man look like he was
                                          > a samurai, somehow kimono alone looks incomplete.

                                          Bushi indeed frequently went about in hakama. I am sorry if I
                                          distressed you. I was simply responding to what I viewed as an overly
                                          categorical statement.

                                          Your Humble Servant
                                          Solveig Throndardottir
                                          Amateur Scholar

                                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                          | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
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                                        • Solveig Throndardottir
                                          Baron Edward! Greetings from Solveig! ... As you well know, the Japanese love uniforms. So, uniforms were hardly unique to the clergy. At least one of the
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Sep 7, 2005
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                                            Baron Edward!

                                            Greetings from Solveig!

                                            > I think you're conflating the issue of specialized uniforms (e.g.,
                                            > clerical "work clothes") with what the NORMAL person wore.

                                            As you well know, the Japanese love uniforms. So, uniforms were hardly
                                            unique to the clergy. At least one of the illustrations at the costume
                                            museum which I referenced would be better characterized as "ceremonial
                                            clothing" than "work clothes". Regardless, as I already mentioned to
                                            the unwitting and unfortunate instigator of this recent exchange
                                            between us, I was simply responding to what was phrased as a blanket
                                            statement. As for the high ranking clerics in question, they were most
                                            definitely "dignified men". If anything, high ranking clerics were
                                            frequently satirized for their attachment to splendid robes. As for the
                                            political status of some of these clerics, I refer you to "Heavenly
                                            Warriors" and other similar books about the Kamakura and Muromachi
                                            periods. Some of these clerics effectively held rank equivalent to that
                                            of a provincial governor.

                                            Your Humble Servant
                                            Solveig Throndardottir
                                            Amateur Scholar

                                            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                            | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                            | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                            | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
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                                          • Anthony Bryant
                                            ... Again.... If you want to take that view, fine. But clerical types do NOT count as typical people in terms of dress or style when they are in their outfits.
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Sep 7, 2005
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                                              Solveig Throndardottir wrote:

                                              > Baron Edward!
                                              >
                                              > Greetings from Solveig!
                                              >
                                              > > I think you're conflating the issue of specialized uniforms (e.g.,
                                              > > clerical "work clothes") with what the NORMAL person wore.
                                              >
                                              > As you well know, the Japanese love uniforms. So, uniforms were hardly
                                              > unique to the clergy. At least one of the illustrations at the costume
                                              > museum which I referenced would be better characterized as "ceremonial
                                              > clothing" than "work clothes". Regardless, as I already mentioned to
                                              > the unwitting and unfortunate instigator of this recent exchange
                                              > between us, I was simply responding to what was phrased as a blanket
                                              > statement. As for the high ranking clerics in question, they were most
                                              > definitely "dignified men". If anything, high ranking clerics were
                                              > frequently satirized for their attachment to splendid robes. As for the
                                              > political status of some of these clerics, I refer you to "Heavenly
                                              > Warriors" and other similar books about the Kamakura and Muromachi
                                              > periods. Some of these clerics effectively held rank equivalent to that
                                              > of a provincial governor.
                                              >
                                              Again....

                                              If you want to take that view, fine. But clerical types do NOT count as
                                              typical people in terms of dress or style when they are in their outfits.

                                              Normal people -- samurai, peasants, artisans, merchants, what have you
                                              -- did NOT as a rule go about without some semblance of pants until the
                                              early Edo or REALLY REALLY REALLY late in period. It. Was. Just. Not. Done.


                                              Effingham
                                            • Otagiri Tatsuzou
                                              ... Not. Done. ... Why did they stop wearing pants? Otagiri
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Sep 7, 2005
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                                                > Normal people -- samurai, peasants, artisans, merchants, what have you
                                                > -- did NOT as a rule go about without some semblance of pants until the
                                                > early Edo or REALLY REALLY REALLY late in period. It. Was. Just.
                                                Not. Done.
                                                >
                                                >


                                                Why did they stop wearing pants?


                                                Otagiri
                                              • Anthony Bryant
                                                ... Why did we stop wearing hats? Why did we stop dressing up to do anything? You didn t see people who weren t working the land wearing T-shirts in public
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Sep 7, 2005
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                                                  Otagiri Tatsuzou wrote:

                                                  > Why did they stop wearing pants?


                                                  Why did we stop wearing hats? Why did we stop "dressing up" to do
                                                  anything? You didn't see people who weren't working the land wearing
                                                  T-shirts in public in the 1940s and 1950s unless they were
                                                  counter-culture elements (e.g., James Dean). Jeans were work clothes.
                                                  Button down dress shirts (ties, jackets) were the social norm. Nowadays,
                                                  we go to the theatre in jeans and a t-shirt and flip-flops. I've seen
                                                  people on campus wearing what I would swear to have been pajamas.

                                                  It's a sign of the coursening of society, IMHO. Remember "Leave it to
                                                  Beaver" where the June Cleaver vaccuumed and cooked in a dress and
                                                  pearls, and Ward wore a tie and jacket at his own dinner table? That
                                                  really was a societal norm. It certainly was in my home.

                                                  Today, I walk around the house in sweatpants and a T-shirt, and it would
                                                  kill my dad to have seen it. Those clothes, in his opinion, belong on
                                                  the sports field or field house, not in public or as "daywear."


                                                  Effingham
                                                • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                                                  ... I m not certain we can say why, for certain, other than that fashion changed. I would hazard a guess that walking around in simply a kosode was just a way
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Sep 7, 2005
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                                                    On 9/7/05, Otagiri Tatsuzou <ronbroberg@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > > Normal people -- samurai, peasants, artisans, merchants, what have you
                                                    > > -- did NOT as a rule go about without some semblance of pants until the
                                                    > > early Edo or REALLY REALLY REALLY late in period. It. Was. Just.
                                                    > Not. Done.
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Why did they stop wearing pants?
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Otagiri

                                                    I'm not certain we can say why, for certain, other than that fashion
                                                    changed.
                                                    I would hazard a guess that walking around in simply a kosode was just a
                                                    way of 'bumming around' the house. It may have also been something that
                                                    working stiffs did--especially if you are working in summer on a hot day. In
                                                    some later Edo Period woodblock prints I also notice what appears to be
                                                    another, fancy 'modesty' garment (looks like the front flap of a fundoshi
                                                    that has been elaborately embroidered and tasseled, in one
                                                    instance)--possibly the response to wearing no pants.
                                                    I get the impression from the paintings that this is often similar to
                                                    rolling down one's chausses in a European setting.
                                                    In "Arrival of the 'Southern Barbarians'" (Anonymous, c. 1600, Leonard C.
                                                    Hann Jr. Fund 1960.193.1-2) there is a mix of laymen with hakama and
                                                    without. I'd say that hakama are definitely in the majority (well, the
                                                    nanban's pantaloons are, but that's a different matter). In some instances,
                                                    it may just be that the hakama are the same color as the kosode--it is hard
                                                    to make out. Only one layman, that I can clearly make out definitely is not
                                                    wearing hakama. I can't be sure if it is a bushi or a merchant.
                                                    By the first half of the 17th century we have Kano Einou's "Views of Lake
                                                    Biwa" (J. H. Wade Fund 1983.19.1-2). It shows several laymen without hakama,
                                                    although they seem to often have kyahan (leg wraps) on.
                                                    In the "Hikone Screen" (c. 1630-1645, Hikone Castle Museum, Shiga
                                                    Prefecture) we see a samurai dandy leaning on his sword (like a cane), hips
                                                    out, and relaxed, with what appears to be just a couple of layers of kosode.
                                                    It is hard to tell, but others in the seen are wearing hakama, and the
                                                    person in question appears to be quite young. Probably a youth, flirting
                                                    witha couple of ladies.
                                                    In "Ammusements in a Mansion" (c. 1640s, Private Collection), many of the
                                                    men are shown in just kosode style garments--in fact, the style of dress
                                                    between men and women is extremely unisex, including the medium-width obi.
                                                    Some older gentlemen are wearing pants, as are many of the samurai about to
                                                    enter, although two bushi appear to be wearing furisode--the long sleeved
                                                    kosode often worn by unmarried women, modernly. The entire scene, I should
                                                    note, seems to have something sexual, and in parts possibly homoerotic, to
                                                    it.
                                                    Add to this the ages old tradition of 'putting on the trousers' as a
                                                    special day in a young boy's progression towards manhood, and the lack of
                                                    hakama for many working classes, leads me to put forward the following
                                                    hypothesis:
                                                    As the lower classes were able to attain rank, they brought their clothes
                                                    with them. Notice that this happened when the bushi first rose to
                                                    prominence, with the hitatare becoming a rich garment. Likewise, the doubuku
                                                    appears to have possibly come from the merchant class.
                                                    Perhaps the lower ranks of the samurai--drawn from provincial farmer-bushi
                                                    and ashigaru--brought this working style with them? On top of that, it seems
                                                    that you see pictures of this style in brothels and 'the floating world',
                                                    especially among youths. It definitely seems to emphasize the effeminate
                                                    qualities. It may have been the equivalent of wearing your pants so low that
                                                    your underwear is seen--only in this case, there are no pants at all.
                                                    Just some thoughts.
                                                    It should be noted that whenever I saw people dressed up for formal
                                                    affairs, they still had hakama, and hakama are seen more often than not, so
                                                    it definitely seems to be the more formal and respected outfit.
                                                    -Ii
                                                    -Ii


                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • Solveig Throndardottir
                                                    Otagiri dono! Greetings from Solvieg! ... Why did ties become less popular in North America? Basically, there was a bit of a trend towards simplification in
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Sep 7, 2005
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                                                      Otagiri dono!

                                                      Greetings from Solvieg!

                                                      > Why did they stop wearing pants?

                                                      Why did ties become less popular in North America? Basically, there was
                                                      a bit of a trend towards simplification in costume over the centuries
                                                      in Japan. Further, as Baron Edward pointed out in one of his Pennsic
                                                      classes, lower classes tended to adopt the leisure wear of the upper
                                                      classes as their own formal wear.

                                                      Your Humble Servant
                                                      Solveig Throndardottir
                                                      Amateur Scholar

                                                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                                      | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                                      | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                                      | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
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                                                    • Solveig Throndardottir
                                                      Baron Edward! Greetings from Solveig! June Cleaver wearing pearls while vacuming was a bit over the top even for the mid-50 s. My mother wore a house dress
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Sep 7, 2005
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                                                        Baron Edward!

                                                        Greetings from Solveig! June Cleaver wearing pearls while vacuming was
                                                        a bit over the top even for the mid-50's. My mother wore a "house
                                                        dress" which you would never ever see June Cleaver wear while vacuming
                                                        and did not generally wear pearls while doing housework. Also, I do not
                                                        recall my father wearing a jacket while we ate dinner although he did
                                                        wear one to work. The big dress code revolution was pretty pervasive in
                                                        the 60's. Men started wearing coloured shirts and even short sleaved
                                                        shirts to work.

                                                        As for today, I have seen people wearing both nightwear and underwear
                                                        as outerwear on campus. I was very startled by the idea of people
                                                        wandering around their own houses naked until fairly recently.

                                                        All of that said, the notion that you do dress properly for things was
                                                        well enough ingrained in my psyche that after summoning the ambulance
                                                        which was soon to transport me unconscious to the hospital, I decided
                                                        that I needed to change from night clothes into outside clothes. This
                                                        led to rather unfortunate results when the rescue squad showed up.

                                                        > Jeans were work clothes.

                                                        Jeans were rather specialized work clothes or sportwear. Most workers
                                                        wore rather different clothing. People were wearing jeans as sportswear
                                                        by the 1940's or earlier. Actually one of the things that changed is
                                                        the general disappearance of uniforms. In the days of June Cleaver,
                                                        service station attendants, milk truck drivers, railroad engineers,
                                                        painters, and many other occupations had distinctive uniforms.

                                                        Your Humble Servant
                                                        Solveig Throndardottir
                                                        Amateur Scholar

                                                        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                                        | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
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                                                      • James Eckman
                                                        ... People dress up, just not the way your re used to. ... The concept of dress flip-flops seems like an oxymoron, but I ve heard serious discussions about it,
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Sep 8, 2005
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                                                          > From: Anthony Bryant <anthony_bryant@...>
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > From: Anthony Bryant <anthony_bryant@...>
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >Why did we stop wearing hats? Why did we stop "dressing up" to do
                                                          >anything?
                                                          >
                                                          People dress up, just not the way your're used to.

                                                          >You didn't see people who weren't working the land wearing
                                                          >T-shirts in public in the 1940s and 1950s unless they were
                                                          >counter-culture elements (e.g., James Dean). Jeans were work clothes.
                                                          >Button down dress shirts (ties, jackets) were the social norm. Nowadays,
                                                          >we go to the theatre in jeans and a t-shirt and flip-flops. I've seen
                                                          >people on campus wearing what I would swear to have been pajamas.
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          The concept of dress flip-flops seems like an oxymoron, but I've heard
                                                          serious discussions about it, and of course there's always the dress
                                                          t-shirt, the one with the pocket ;)

                                                          >It's a sign of the coursening of society, IMHO.
                                                          >
                                                          ROTFL

                                                          >Remember "Leave it to
                                                          >Beaver" where the June Cleaver vaccuumed and cooked in a dress and
                                                          >pearls, and Ward wore a tie and jacket at his own dinner table? That
                                                          >really was a societal norm. It certainly was in my home.
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          Most people in the 60's and 70's drank more than they do nowadays, 100
                                                          years ago a bottle a day man was not an uncommon person. Is this part of
                                                          the refinement we are missing along with lynchings, women forced to stay
                                                          home, etc? Fashion is one of those transient things and really doesn't
                                                          have any real long term impact on society. Also the days of no SCA :(
                                                          Give me the good new days.

                                                          >Today, I walk around the house in sweatpants and a T-shirt, and it would
                                                          >kill my dad to have seen it. Those clothes, in his opinion, belong on
                                                          >the sports field or field house, not in public or as "daywear."
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          Lucky I had counter culture parents then...

                                                          > From: Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >Why did ties become less popular in North America?
                                                          >
                                                          Because they are uncomfortable, dangerous and a pain in the ass? Just
                                                          the opinion of the fashion god of the nerds.

                                                          >Basically, there was
                                                          >a bit of a trend towards simplification in costume over the centuries
                                                          >in Japan. Further, as Baron Edward pointed out in one of his Pennsic
                                                          >classes, lower classes tended to adopt the leisure wear of the upper
                                                          >classes as their own formal wear.
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          Tuxedos come to mind.

                                                          >As for today, I have seen people wearing both nightwear and underwear
                                                          >as outerwear on campus. I was very startled by the idea of people
                                                          >wandering around their own houses naked until fairly recently.
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          Some of our Scandinavian neighbors were doing that in the late 50's,
                                                          welcome to the land of the Puritans.

                                                          Jim Eckman
                                                        • Solveig Throndardottir
                                                          Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... I was once told that in the 19th century, the floor of the U.S. Senate was generously equipped with a punch bowl full
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Sep 8, 2005
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                                                            Noble Cousin!

                                                            Greetings from Solveig!

                                                            > Most people in the 60's and 70's drank more than they do nowadays, 100
                                                            > years ago a bottle a day man was not an uncommon person. Is this part
                                                            > of
                                                            > the refinement we are missing along with lynchings, women forced to
                                                            > stay
                                                            > home, etc? Fashion is one of those transient things and really doesn't
                                                            > have any real long term impact on society. Also the days of no SCA :(
                                                            > Give me the good new days.

                                                            I was once told that in the 19th century, the floor of the U.S. Senate
                                                            was generously equipped with a punch bowl full of whisky. At one time,
                                                            spittoons were common. Some nineteenth judges and other lawmen had the
                                                            habit of taking trophies from those apprehended in some case making
                                                            items of apparel or satchels out of body parts taken from those
                                                            executed. (This I have seen in a museum.) In nineteenth century
                                                            Montana, one town decided to steal the county seat from another town.
                                                            They succeeded, and the original county seat is now a ghost town. Then
                                                            again, there were those lovely battles between the Pinkertons and all
                                                            sorts of other groups including, in at least one incident in Ohio if I
                                                            recall correctly, the local constabulary.

                                                            > Some of our Scandinavian neighbors were doing that in the late 50's,
                                                            > welcome to the land of the Puritans.

                                                            I know not how reliable this story of the Puritans is, but I was once
                                                            told that the Puritans were tossed out of England for being obnoxious
                                                            in a variety of ways including apparently demonstrating their supposed
                                                            purity by parading around London in the buff. One thing that is pretty
                                                            certain about New England colonists is that they did not all live in
                                                            white houses. There are amusing cases of the boards of "historical"
                                                            societies in Lexington and Concord forbidding their owners from
                                                            painting their houses the colours which they were actually painted at
                                                            the time of the revolution instead mandating that they must be painted
                                                            "colonial white".

                                                            Your Humble Servant
                                                            Solveig Throndardottir
                                                            Amateur Scholar

                                                            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                                            | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                                            | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                                            | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
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