Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [SCA-JML] I am beset by pesky ninjas..

Expand Messages
  • Solveig Throndardottir
    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... To quote a college friend of mine, bull piddle . Louis Frederic in Japan Encyclopedia claims that the Tenchuu gumi
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 5, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      Noble Cousin!

      Greetings from Solveig!

      > Being a student of the Bujinkan traditions I feel that I may be of
      > some use. Our lineages have been traced and are verified as
      > legitimate. The "Bugei Ryuha Daijiten", (which is the record of all
      > Japanese legitmate schools) lists all the schools, and Dr. Hatsumi as
      > Grandmaster. As well, he is still the only recognized living ninja by
      > the Government of Japan. Here is a link to my Sensei's website.
      > There is quite a bit of info if you are interested.
      >
      > http://www.bujinkan.hr/index-en.php

      To quote a college friend of mine, "bull piddle". Louis Frederic in
      "Japan Encyclopedia" claims that the Tenchuu gumi (not Tenchi gumi as
      claimed in the web site) was a group of direct vassals to the emperor
      who revolted against the shougun in 1863. The members of the tenchuu
      gumi were generally: bushi, peasants, and at least one member of the
      kuge (nobility). The peasants were led by a village chief from the Tosa
      estate. Note. There is no mention of a "tenchigumi" in either Daijirin
      or Nihonshi Kenkyuu.

      I am sure that you are having an enjoyable experience in your doujo and
      respect your sensei very much, but you have been experiencing a
      particular kind of Japanese hype common in the martial arts community.
      The web page which you give does nothing at all to seriously
      substantiate claims for ninjutsu.

      Incidentally, ninja is the generally preferred Japanese word not
      shinobi no mono. Further, the base meaning of "shinobi" is "endure"
      with the circular definition "ninja" appearing as the third definition.
      I rather think that "endure" is the real root of the word and refers to
      special fortitude by spec ops units which would silently ford motes,
      scale walls, &c. Even popular depictions of ninja portray the general
      silence of the ninja. Why would "ninja" be preferred to "shinobi no
      mono" for pretty much the same reason that Greek, Italian, and French
      nouns are preferred to Anglo-Saxon nouns in English. Ninja simply
      sounds more educated, because it uses on'yomi readings. The Japanese
      are especially fond of "night attacks", so moving silently and wearing
      hard to see clothing could make you pretty stealthy.

      As for this "samurai code" preventing engagement in special ops, hooey!
      The Japanese love special ops. There are times when you make a big deal
      about battle and even single combat, and times when you don't. As for
      night attacks in general, you should read about the start of the Genpei
      War, the famous night attack involving the Soga brothers, &c.

      As for fanciful claims of antiquity, you encounter that sort of thing
      all the time when dealing with things Japanese. Everyone has to learn
      to sift through these claims.

      Your Humble Servant
      Solveig Throndardottir
      Amateur Scholar

      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
      | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
      | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
      | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
      | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
      | the trash by my email filters. |
      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Anthony Bryant
      ... It is *today* but wasn t historically. And if we are talking in terms of historical context... Today, they re typically called bikes -- there was a time
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 5, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        Solveig Throndardottir wrote:

        >
        >
        > Incidentally, ninja is the generally preferred Japanese word not
        > shinobi no mono.


        It is *today* but wasn't historically. And if we are talking in terms of
        historical context...

        Today, they're typically called "bikes" -- there was a time they were
        called velocipedes, and in the historical context, that term is acceptable.

        > Further, the base meaning of "shinobi" is "endure" with the circular
        > definition "ninja" appearing as the third definition.

        Irrelevent. The term "shinobi no mono" is a locked phrase with one
        recognized definition. Anyone who wants to translate that as "someone
        who is enduring" is the one being odd, not the one using it for its
        recognized meaning of "ninja."

        > I rather think
        > that "endure" is the real root of the word and refers to special
        > fortitude by spec ops units which would silently ford motes, scale
        > walls, &c.

        It also has the context of "stealth".


        > As for this "samurai code" preventing engagement in special ops,
        > hooey! The Japanese love special ops.

        Oh, yeah. ;)


        Effingham
      • Solveig Throndardottir
        Baron Edward! Greetings from Solveig! I think that you are being intentionally dense. Ninja is the preferred word today. I made no great claims about
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 5, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          Baron Edward!

          Greetings from Solveig! I think that you are being intentionally dense.
          Ninja is the preferred word today. I made no great claims about
          historical usage. If I had, I would have cited a kogojiten. As for
          etymology, that is generally problematic. I am reminded of my Classical
          Japanese professor going on about the verb saburau and how that leads
          to samurai. The question is why are they called "ninja" or "shinobi no
          mono" (big deal - that's just the kun'yomi reading and doesn't even
          change the order of the kanji involved)?

          > Irrelevent. The term "shinobi no mono" is a locked phrase with one
          > recognized definition. Anyone who wants to translate that as "someone
          > who is enduring" is the one being odd, not the one using it for its
          > recognized meaning of "ninja."

          It's a locked phrase which at this point is almost hopelessly muddled
          by popular culture. The question is where does the locked phrase come
          from? If we just go by the understood meaning, then it refers to those
          guys in the black pyjamas that you see in ramen operas on television.
          In short, nothing more than a modern flight of fancy. As for
          "stealthy", the question is why does "shinobu" relate to "stealth"? I
          think that I addressed it, you didn't. Yes, there are oodles of
          homonyms in Japanese, but they usually don't share kanji! The root of
          the kanji in question is "heart" with the rest added for sound. The
          root meaning is "especially strong fortitude".

          While Kogorin attempts to trace "shinobu" with the sense of being
          undetectable to Genji Monogatari, the quote does not actually include
          the word or any variant. However, it does relate the special notion of
          not being detected. The art of "invisibility" is the one central aspect
          of ninjutsu that is generally encountered. Not the costume, not the
          weapon forms, &c. As you yourself once wrote, "At Pennsic, a ninja
          would wear norman or tudor."

          The earliest appearance of "shinobi no mono" appears to be in the
          Taiheiki 20 where we encounter:

          "Ichimotsu no shinobi no mono wo Hachimanzan ni irete"

          This business about the ninja being a T'ang import based on the
          teachings of Sun Tsu seems to me to be entirely specious.

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar

          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
          | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
          | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
          | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
          | the trash by my email filters. |
          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Nevin Broz
          Believe what you will. History cannot be changed. Names can, as our lineages have been renamed many times over the centuries but history cannot. The titles
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 5, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            Believe what you will. History cannot be changed. Names can, as our lineages have been renamed many times over the centuries but history cannot. The titles Shidoshi, Shidoshi-ho (meaning senior and junior instructors respectfully) didn't exist historically. Hatsumi Sensei created these words, yet every day modern claim to some ninja school and a few samurai lineages use them as ancient terminology. ex: Frank Dux from Bloodsport fame. Search for the truth and do what makes you happy!


            Nevin Z. Broz
            Shidoshi-ho
            Bujinkan Seishin Ninpo Ronin Dojo

            Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
            Noble Cousin!

            Greetings from Solveig!

            > Being a student of the Bujinkan traditions I feel that I may be of
            > some use. Our lineages have been traced and are verified as
            > legitimate. The "Bugei Ryuha Daijiten", (which is the record of all
            > Japanese legitmate schools) lists all the schools, and Dr. Hatsumi as
            > Grandmaster. As well, he is still the only recognized living ninja by
            > the Government of Japan. Here is a link to my Sensei's website.
            > There is quite a bit of info if you are interested.
            >
            > http://www.bujinkan.hr/index-en.php

            To quote a college friend of mine, "bull piddle". Louis Frederic in
            "Japan Encyclopedia" claims that the Tenchuu gumi (not Tenchi gumi as
            claimed in the web site) was a group of direct vassals to the emperor
            who revolted against the shougun in 1863. The members of the tenchuu
            gumi were generally: bushi, peasants, and at least one member of the
            kuge (nobility). The peasants were led by a village chief from the Tosa
            estate. Note. There is no mention of a "tenchigumi" in either Daijirin
            or Nihonshi Kenkyuu.

            I am sure that you are having an enjoyable experience in your doujo and
            respect your sensei very much, but you have been experiencing a
            particular kind of Japanese hype common in the martial arts community.
            The web page which you give does nothing at all to seriously
            substantiate claims for ninjutsu.

            Incidentally, ninja is the generally preferred Japanese word not
            shinobi no mono. Further, the base meaning of "shinobi" is "endure"
            with the circular definition "ninja" appearing as the third definition.
            I rather think that "endure" is the real root of the word and refers to
            special fortitude by spec ops units which would silently ford motes,
            scale walls, &c. Even popular depictions of ninja portray the general
            silence of the ninja. Why would "ninja" be preferred to "shinobi no
            mono" for pretty much the same reason that Greek, Italian, and French
            nouns are preferred to Anglo-Saxon nouns in English. Ninja simply
            sounds more educated, because it uses on'yomi readings. The Japanese
            are especially fond of "night attacks", so moving silently and wearing
            hard to see clothing could make you pretty stealthy.

            As for this "samurai code" preventing engagement in special ops, hooey!
            The Japanese love special ops. There are times when you make a big deal
            about battle and even single combat, and times when you don't. As for
            night attacks in general, you should read about the start of the Genpei
            War, the famous night attack involving the Soga brothers, &c.

            As for fanciful claims of antiquity, you encounter that sort of thing
            all the time when dealing with things Japanese. Everyone has to learn
            to sift through these claims.

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar

            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
            | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
            | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
            | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
            | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
            | the trash by my email filters. |
            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



            SPONSORED LINKS
            Living history Used car history Vehicle history

            ---------------------------------
            YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS


            Visit your group "sca-jml" on the web.

            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


            ---------------------------------




            ---------------------------------
            Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Solveig Throndardottir
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Faking lineages was and is very common in Japan. Your school s lineage may be authentic, however the chances are very
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 5, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig! Faking lineages was and is very common in
              Japan. Your school's lineage may be authentic, however the chances are
              very good that it is not. Claiming a lineage going back to the T'ang is
              automatically suspicious. There are some things in Japan which are
              traceable to the T'ang, but they are generally preserved in the court.
              Look, there is even a controversy about the imperial lineage which only
              goes back about six hundred years or so. The T'ang were long gone a
              LONG time before that. History means "investigations". This means
              trying to find things out. The web page which was quoted here earlier
              was far from authoritative and even spelled the name of a particular
              uprising in Japan incorrectly in a way which does make a difference.

              Here is an example from something that I am involved with. There is a
              controversy over the origin of the Sen family. The Sen have held a pair
              of adjoining estates in Kyouto since the early seventeenth century and
              are linked by marriage to the imperial family. The dispute is whether
              or not they are Koreans or some such thing.

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar

              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
              | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
              | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
              | the trash by my email filters. |
              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.