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Re: [SCA-JML] I am beset by pesky ninjas..

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  • Solveig Throndardottir
    Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! ... After a quick look over, I would not suggest giving much credance to these sites. Your Humble Servant Solveig
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 3, 2005
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      Noble Cousins!

      Greetings from Solveig!

      > http://edisto.cofc.edu/~nmtaylor/history.html
      >
      > http://www.whitetigerninja.com/Ninjahistory.html
      >
      > http://www.ninjabilly.com/html/ninja_history.html

      After a quick look over, I would not suggest giving much credance to
      these sites.

      Your Humble Servant
      Solveig Throndardottir
      Amateur Scholar

      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
      | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
      | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
      | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
      | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
      | the trash by my email filters. |
      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Solveig Throndardottir
      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... To quote a college friend of mine, bull piddle . Louis Frederic in Japan Encyclopedia claims that the Tenchuu gumi
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 5, 2005
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        Noble Cousin!

        Greetings from Solveig!

        > Being a student of the Bujinkan traditions I feel that I may be of
        > some use. Our lineages have been traced and are verified as
        > legitimate. The "Bugei Ryuha Daijiten", (which is the record of all
        > Japanese legitmate schools) lists all the schools, and Dr. Hatsumi as
        > Grandmaster. As well, he is still the only recognized living ninja by
        > the Government of Japan. Here is a link to my Sensei's website.
        > There is quite a bit of info if you are interested.
        >
        > http://www.bujinkan.hr/index-en.php

        To quote a college friend of mine, "bull piddle". Louis Frederic in
        "Japan Encyclopedia" claims that the Tenchuu gumi (not Tenchi gumi as
        claimed in the web site) was a group of direct vassals to the emperor
        who revolted against the shougun in 1863. The members of the tenchuu
        gumi were generally: bushi, peasants, and at least one member of the
        kuge (nobility). The peasants were led by a village chief from the Tosa
        estate. Note. There is no mention of a "tenchigumi" in either Daijirin
        or Nihonshi Kenkyuu.

        I am sure that you are having an enjoyable experience in your doujo and
        respect your sensei very much, but you have been experiencing a
        particular kind of Japanese hype common in the martial arts community.
        The web page which you give does nothing at all to seriously
        substantiate claims for ninjutsu.

        Incidentally, ninja is the generally preferred Japanese word not
        shinobi no mono. Further, the base meaning of "shinobi" is "endure"
        with the circular definition "ninja" appearing as the third definition.
        I rather think that "endure" is the real root of the word and refers to
        special fortitude by spec ops units which would silently ford motes,
        scale walls, &c. Even popular depictions of ninja portray the general
        silence of the ninja. Why would "ninja" be preferred to "shinobi no
        mono" for pretty much the same reason that Greek, Italian, and French
        nouns are preferred to Anglo-Saxon nouns in English. Ninja simply
        sounds more educated, because it uses on'yomi readings. The Japanese
        are especially fond of "night attacks", so moving silently and wearing
        hard to see clothing could make you pretty stealthy.

        As for this "samurai code" preventing engagement in special ops, hooey!
        The Japanese love special ops. There are times when you make a big deal
        about battle and even single combat, and times when you don't. As for
        night attacks in general, you should read about the start of the Genpei
        War, the famous night attack involving the Soga brothers, &c.

        As for fanciful claims of antiquity, you encounter that sort of thing
        all the time when dealing with things Japanese. Everyone has to learn
        to sift through these claims.

        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar

        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
        | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
        | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
        | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
        | the trash by my email filters. |
        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Anthony Bryant
        ... It is *today* but wasn t historically. And if we are talking in terms of historical context... Today, they re typically called bikes -- there was a time
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 5, 2005
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          Solveig Throndardottir wrote:

          >
          >
          > Incidentally, ninja is the generally preferred Japanese word not
          > shinobi no mono.


          It is *today* but wasn't historically. And if we are talking in terms of
          historical context...

          Today, they're typically called "bikes" -- there was a time they were
          called velocipedes, and in the historical context, that term is acceptable.

          > Further, the base meaning of "shinobi" is "endure" with the circular
          > definition "ninja" appearing as the third definition.

          Irrelevent. The term "shinobi no mono" is a locked phrase with one
          recognized definition. Anyone who wants to translate that as "someone
          who is enduring" is the one being odd, not the one using it for its
          recognized meaning of "ninja."

          > I rather think
          > that "endure" is the real root of the word and refers to special
          > fortitude by spec ops units which would silently ford motes, scale
          > walls, &c.

          It also has the context of "stealth".


          > As for this "samurai code" preventing engagement in special ops,
          > hooey! The Japanese love special ops.

          Oh, yeah. ;)


          Effingham
        • Solveig Throndardottir
          Baron Edward! Greetings from Solveig! I think that you are being intentionally dense. Ninja is the preferred word today. I made no great claims about
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 5, 2005
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            Baron Edward!

            Greetings from Solveig! I think that you are being intentionally dense.
            Ninja is the preferred word today. I made no great claims about
            historical usage. If I had, I would have cited a kogojiten. As for
            etymology, that is generally problematic. I am reminded of my Classical
            Japanese professor going on about the verb saburau and how that leads
            to samurai. The question is why are they called "ninja" or "shinobi no
            mono" (big deal - that's just the kun'yomi reading and doesn't even
            change the order of the kanji involved)?

            > Irrelevent. The term "shinobi no mono" is a locked phrase with one
            > recognized definition. Anyone who wants to translate that as "someone
            > who is enduring" is the one being odd, not the one using it for its
            > recognized meaning of "ninja."

            It's a locked phrase which at this point is almost hopelessly muddled
            by popular culture. The question is where does the locked phrase come
            from? If we just go by the understood meaning, then it refers to those
            guys in the black pyjamas that you see in ramen operas on television.
            In short, nothing more than a modern flight of fancy. As for
            "stealthy", the question is why does "shinobu" relate to "stealth"? I
            think that I addressed it, you didn't. Yes, there are oodles of
            homonyms in Japanese, but they usually don't share kanji! The root of
            the kanji in question is "heart" with the rest added for sound. The
            root meaning is "especially strong fortitude".

            While Kogorin attempts to trace "shinobu" with the sense of being
            undetectable to Genji Monogatari, the quote does not actually include
            the word or any variant. However, it does relate the special notion of
            not being detected. The art of "invisibility" is the one central aspect
            of ninjutsu that is generally encountered. Not the costume, not the
            weapon forms, &c. As you yourself once wrote, "At Pennsic, a ninja
            would wear norman or tudor."

            The earliest appearance of "shinobi no mono" appears to be in the
            Taiheiki 20 where we encounter:

            "Ichimotsu no shinobi no mono wo Hachimanzan ni irete"

            This business about the ninja being a T'ang import based on the
            teachings of Sun Tsu seems to me to be entirely specious.

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar

            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
            | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
            | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
            | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
            | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
            | the trash by my email filters. |
            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Nevin Broz
            Believe what you will. History cannot be changed. Names can, as our lineages have been renamed many times over the centuries but history cannot. The titles
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 5, 2005
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              Believe what you will. History cannot be changed. Names can, as our lineages have been renamed many times over the centuries but history cannot. The titles Shidoshi, Shidoshi-ho (meaning senior and junior instructors respectfully) didn't exist historically. Hatsumi Sensei created these words, yet every day modern claim to some ninja school and a few samurai lineages use them as ancient terminology. ex: Frank Dux from Bloodsport fame. Search for the truth and do what makes you happy!


              Nevin Z. Broz
              Shidoshi-ho
              Bujinkan Seishin Ninpo Ronin Dojo

              Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig!

              > Being a student of the Bujinkan traditions I feel that I may be of
              > some use. Our lineages have been traced and are verified as
              > legitimate. The "Bugei Ryuha Daijiten", (which is the record of all
              > Japanese legitmate schools) lists all the schools, and Dr. Hatsumi as
              > Grandmaster. As well, he is still the only recognized living ninja by
              > the Government of Japan. Here is a link to my Sensei's website.
              > There is quite a bit of info if you are interested.
              >
              > http://www.bujinkan.hr/index-en.php

              To quote a college friend of mine, "bull piddle". Louis Frederic in
              "Japan Encyclopedia" claims that the Tenchuu gumi (not Tenchi gumi as
              claimed in the web site) was a group of direct vassals to the emperor
              who revolted against the shougun in 1863. The members of the tenchuu
              gumi were generally: bushi, peasants, and at least one member of the
              kuge (nobility). The peasants were led by a village chief from the Tosa
              estate. Note. There is no mention of a "tenchigumi" in either Daijirin
              or Nihonshi Kenkyuu.

              I am sure that you are having an enjoyable experience in your doujo and
              respect your sensei very much, but you have been experiencing a
              particular kind of Japanese hype common in the martial arts community.
              The web page which you give does nothing at all to seriously
              substantiate claims for ninjutsu.

              Incidentally, ninja is the generally preferred Japanese word not
              shinobi no mono. Further, the base meaning of "shinobi" is "endure"
              with the circular definition "ninja" appearing as the third definition.
              I rather think that "endure" is the real root of the word and refers to
              special fortitude by spec ops units which would silently ford motes,
              scale walls, &c. Even popular depictions of ninja portray the general
              silence of the ninja. Why would "ninja" be preferred to "shinobi no
              mono" for pretty much the same reason that Greek, Italian, and French
              nouns are preferred to Anglo-Saxon nouns in English. Ninja simply
              sounds more educated, because it uses on'yomi readings. The Japanese
              are especially fond of "night attacks", so moving silently and wearing
              hard to see clothing could make you pretty stealthy.

              As for this "samurai code" preventing engagement in special ops, hooey!
              The Japanese love special ops. There are times when you make a big deal
              about battle and even single combat, and times when you don't. As for
              night attacks in general, you should read about the start of the Genpei
              War, the famous night attack involving the Soga brothers, &c.

              As for fanciful claims of antiquity, you encounter that sort of thing
              all the time when dealing with things Japanese. Everyone has to learn
              to sift through these claims.

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar

              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
              | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
              | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
              | the trash by my email filters. |
              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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            • Solveig Throndardottir
              Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Faking lineages was and is very common in Japan. Your school s lineage may be authentic, however the chances are very
              Message 6 of 13 , Aug 5, 2005
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                Noble Cousin!

                Greetings from Solveig! Faking lineages was and is very common in
                Japan. Your school's lineage may be authentic, however the chances are
                very good that it is not. Claiming a lineage going back to the T'ang is
                automatically suspicious. There are some things in Japan which are
                traceable to the T'ang, but they are generally preserved in the court.
                Look, there is even a controversy about the imperial lineage which only
                goes back about six hundred years or so. The T'ang were long gone a
                LONG time before that. History means "investigations". This means
                trying to find things out. The web page which was quoted here earlier
                was far from authoritative and even spelled the name of a particular
                uprising in Japan incorrectly in a way which does make a difference.

                Here is an example from something that I am involved with. There is a
                controversy over the origin of the Sen family. The Sen have held a pair
                of adjoining estates in Kyouto since the early seventeenth century and
                are linked by marriage to the imperial family. The dispute is whether
                or not they are Koreans or some such thing.

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar

                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                | the trash by my email filters. |
                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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