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Re: [SCA-JML] Mempo Question...

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  • sigrune@aol.com
    In a message dated 8/1/2005 5:23:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, qara0@yahoo.com writes: If one is fighting with a Mempo behind a face grill, can one conceivably
    Message 1 of 16 , Aug 1, 2005
      In a message dated 8/1/2005 5:23:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,
      qara0@... writes:

      If one is fighting with a Mempo behind a face grill, can one
      conceivably cheat (choke gasp.. CHEATING?? MOI??) and use a
      lightweight plastic instead?

      Oh, not too obviously by using some really strange colored plastic,
      I'm talking about maybe using the blue plastic, sanding it down and
      spray painting it black.

      Would that work behind a full face grill?

      Please, any and all info would be greatly appreciated.

      Namaste,
      Qara Unegen



      Yes, that can be done* since the grill of the helm would be providing
      protection, the mempo would be "fluff"

      * it would pass your kingdoms marshal's concerns about not being a source of
      injury (i.e. shifting and poking you in the eye, interfereing with the
      chinstrap-padding, etc.)

      -Takeda Sanjuichiro Akimasa


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • michael A
      while you could do that, why not just make the menpo in a thin ga steel if it is not structural? No need to use plastic unneccesarily. --kiyohara ...
      Message 2 of 16 , Aug 1, 2005
        while you could do that, why not just make the menpo
        in a thin ga steel if it is not structural? No need to
        use plastic unneccesarily.
        --kiyohara


        --- Diane Taylor <qara0@...> wrote:

        > If one is fighting with a Mempo behind a face grill,
        > can one
        > conceivably cheat (choke gasp.. CHEATING?? MOI??)
        > and use a
        > lightweight plastic instead?
        >
        > Oh, not too obviously by using some really strange
        > colored plastic,
        > I'm talking about maybe using the blue plastic,
        > sanding it down and
        > spray painting it black.
        >
        > Would that work behind a full face grill?
        >
        > Please, any and all info would be greatly
        > appreciated.
        >
        > Namaste,
        > Qara Unegen
        >
        >
        >
        >
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      • wodeford
        ... If you re going to cheat, why not cheat with something a lot easier to cut, form to the right shape, and dye? Wet leather can be molded on a form and will
        Message 3 of 16 , Aug 1, 2005
          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, sigrune@a... wrote:
          > If one is fighting with a Mempo behind a face grill, can one
          > conceivably cheat (choke gasp.. CHEATING?? MOI??) and use a
          > lightweight plastic instead?

          If you're going to cheat, why not cheat with something a lot easier to
          cut, form to the right shape, and dye? Wet leather can be molded on a
          form and will dry in the shape you want - mask makers have been doing
          it for centuries.

          Two sen worth from behind the kicho,

          Makiwara
        • Barbara Nostrand
          Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! You may want to check out a hemp kamishimo for sale on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Japanese-samurai-Kamishimo-
          Message 4 of 16 , Aug 1, 2005
            Noble Cousins!

            Greetings from Solveig! You may want to check out a hemp kamishimo for
            sale on eBay:

            http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Japanese-samurai-Kamishimo-
            Kimono_W0QQitemZ7703683440QQcategoryZ29452QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZV
            iewItem
          • Diane Taylor
            I do have the Menpo pattern from the Sengokudaimyo Website. And I do have some scraps of leather hanging around here somewhere. Hrmmmmmm.... For me, money and
            Message 5 of 16 , Aug 1, 2005
              I do have the Menpo pattern from the Sengokudaimyo
              Website. And I do have some scraps of leather hanging
              around here somewhere. Hrmmmmmm....

              For me, money and time constraints are preventing me
              from getting the proper stuff to make the armor I want
              to. Right now, I'm wearing Scale Lamellar hardened
              with wax. I hung scale plates off the kidney belt so
              it sort of looks like a Quasi-Japanese set of armor,
              heheh But that's as far as I've gotten.
              I have a dream of blowing my friends away one year
              when I step out onto the battlefield in full Japanese
              armor. But that's a bit farther down the road.

              Namaste,
              Qara
              Thanks guys, for all the info! Mucho Much!!

              --- wodeford <wodeford@...> wrote:

              >> If you're going to cheat, why not cheat with
              > something a lot easier to
              > cut, form to the right shape, and dye? Wet leather
              > can be molded on a
              > form and will dry in the shape you want - mask
              > makers have been doing
              > it for centuries.
              >
              > Two sen worth from behind the kicho,
              >
              > Makiwara
              >
              >
              >
              >


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            • Otagiri Tatsuzou
              ... This link may be more accessible: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7703683440 Very nice. Why the raw color? Because that s the way they
              Message 6 of 16 , Aug 1, 2005
                > Noble Cousins!
                >
                > Greetings from Solveig! You may want to check out a hemp kamishimo for
                > sale on eBay:
                >

                This link may be more accessible:
                http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7703683440

                Very nice.
                Why the 'raw' color? Because that's the way they wanted it? Because it
                would be dyed later?

                Otagiri
              • Jason Silver
                Greetings! Some time ago (yea long time ago before I knew better LOL) I made a mempo that I had planned to use in a similar fashion, in some respects I still
                Message 7 of 16 , Aug 1, 2005
                  Greetings!

                  Some time ago (yea long time ago before I knew better LOL) I made a
                  mempo that I had planned to use in a similar fashion, in some
                  respects I still do, it will be a very LARGE chin strap ;).. I will
                  see if I can take some pictures of the original design and post them
                  here for you to see.. The Mempo is no where near acurate for history,
                  again I say it was before I found this group, but it sure gives me
                  idea's and it taught me a good lesson.. When designing your mempo use
                  a small bit of padding between you and it, you will be much happier
                  in the end. Also ensure you have some drainage holes.. I dont know
                  about you but When I first started fighting I didnt have any holes
                  and that was just nasty! Once made use some of the padding you used
                  to help space it but leave channels and such in the foam to allow for
                  air spacing, it will be a 100 times more comfortable..

                  Hopefully that was some help :)

                  Imakawa

                  --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Diane Taylor <qara0@y...> wrote:
                  > I do have the Menpo pattern from the Sengokudaimyo
                  > Website. And I do have some scraps of leather hanging
                  > around here somewhere. Hrmmmmmm....
                  >
                  > For me, money and time constraints are preventing me
                  > from getting the proper stuff to make the armor I want
                  > to. Right now, I'm wearing Scale Lamellar hardened
                  > with wax. I hung scale plates off the kidney belt so
                  > it sort of looks like a Quasi-Japanese set of armor,
                  > heheh But that's as far as I've gotten.
                  > I have a dream of blowing my friends away one year
                  > when I step out onto the battlefield in full Japanese
                  > armor. But that's a bit farther down the road.
                  >
                  > Namaste,
                  > Qara
                  > Thanks guys, for all the info! Mucho Much!!
                  >
                  > --- wodeford <wodeford@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > >> If you're going to cheat, why not cheat with
                  > > something a lot easier to
                  > > cut, form to the right shape, and dye? Wet leather
                  > > can be molded on a
                  > > form and will dry in the shape you want - mask
                  > > makers have been doing
                  > > it for centuries.
                  > >
                  > > Two sen worth from behind the kicho,
                  > >
                  > > Makiwara
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
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                • michael A
                  A fair question possed... i hope you ll see this as a fair and genuine answer, Why cheat at all? 1.you could make a thinner steel menpo with a grill over it
                  Message 8 of 16 , Aug 1, 2005
                    A fair question possed... i hope you'll see this as a
                    fair and genuine answer,

                    Why "cheat" at all?

                    1.you could make a thinner steel menpo with a grill
                    over it for safety. In fact it would be closer to a
                    historical thickness than one made to be structual to
                    an sca helm.

                    2. Steel adds to the realism of the kit instead of
                    detracting from it. Sure we have to make tradeoffs to
                    use a japanese kit in the sca, but can't we do
                    everything in our power to minmize those compromises?
                    why add them unnecessarily.

                    3. what is being recreated here, We aren't making a
                    mask for a ball. Thus a molded leather mask doesn't
                    add to the recreation of armor. A steel menpo does.

                    4.As for the ease of construction, working a thinner
                    ga steel into a menpo would not be that hard. Again
                    creating complex shaped sca safe thickness spring
                    steel is hard. Putting together a simply shaped
                    thinner mild steel menpo is not.

                    5. And fianlly an most importantly :)
                    ......It will look ohhhhhh so much better in steel. :)


                    If anyone wants/ needs to discuss how to execute it in
                    steel feel free to email me privately.

                    --kiyohara



                    --- wodeford <wodeford@...> wrote:

                    > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, sigrune@a... wrote:
                    > > If one is fighting with a Mempo behind a face
                    > grill, can one
                    > > conceivably cheat (choke gasp.. CHEATING?? MOI??)
                    > and use a
                    > > lightweight plastic instead?
                    >
                    > If you're going to cheat, why not cheat with
                    > something a lot easier to
                    > cut, form to the right shape, and dye? Wet leather
                    > can be molded on a
                    > form and will dry in the shape you want - mask
                    > makers have been doing
                    > it for centuries.
                    >
                    > Two sen worth from behind the kicho,
                    >
                    > Makiwara
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                    > --------------------~-->
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                    > would our lives be like without music, dance, and
                    > theater?Donate or volunteer in the arts today at
                    > Network for Good</a>.</font>
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                  • wodeford
                    ... I was proceeding on the assumption (which may have been erroneous) that a cheat was necessary due to lack of metalworking skills and/or tools and suggested
                    Message 9 of 16 , Aug 2, 2005
                      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, michael A <kiyokage@y...> wrote:
                      > A fair question possed... i hope you'll see this as a
                      > fair and genuine answer,
                      >
                      > Why "cheat" at all?

                      I was proceeding on the assumption (which may have been erroneous)
                      that a cheat was necessary due to lack of metalworking skills and/or
                      tools and suggested leather as being a little easier to deal with.
                      That's all.

                      Makiwara
                    • Diane Taylor
                      It is a fair question, Wodeford. And you are correct in your assumption. I have neither the skills to work with metal, nor the time or money it would take to
                      Message 10 of 16 , Aug 2, 2005
                        It is a fair question, Wodeford.

                        And you are correct in your assumption. I have neither
                        the skills to work with metal, nor the time or money
                        it would take to aquire such things. The only metal
                        working I seem to be good at is Chainmail.. and I once
                        helped a friend make Kusari. He needed the help to get
                        an item done before an event, so he asked me to help
                        him out.

                        However, I DO know how to work with leather and I have
                        several thicknesses of the stuff laying around.
                        When working with wax hardening, you tend to keep a
                        lot of that stuff handy.
                        When I actually become a famous *yeah right* author,
                        I'll try and attempt metal working. But until then,
                        I'll stick with leather. :D

                        Namaste,
                        Qara Unegen - Who will one day make an alter ego
                        Japanese Persona.

                        --- wodeford <wodeford@...> wrote:

                        > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, michael A
                        > <kiyokage@y...> wrote:
                        > > A fair question possed... i hope you'll see this
                        > as a
                        > > fair and genuine answer,
                        > >
                        > > Why "cheat" at all?
                        >
                        > I was proceeding on the assumption (which may have
                        > been erroneous)
                        > that a cheat was necessary due to lack of
                        > metalworking skills and/or
                        > tools and suggested leather as being a little easier
                        > to deal with.
                        > That's all.
                        >
                        > Makiwara
                        >
                        >
                        >


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                      • Solveig Throndardottir
                        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! This particular kamishimo is made from hemp which I suspect does not take colour particularly well. There are a few other
                        Message 11 of 16 , Aug 2, 2005
                          Noble Cousin!

                          Greetings from Solveig! This particular kamishimo is made from hemp
                          which I suspect does not take colour particularly well. There are a few
                          other less nice possibilities related to seppuku.

                          Your Humble Servant
                          Solveig Throndardottir
                          Amateur Scholar

                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • michael A
                          greetings again, things being as described below, you can either seek out an armorer locally, most will open their shop up to those that wish to learn, or if
                          Message 12 of 16 , Aug 4, 2005
                            greetings again,
                            things being as described below, you can either seek
                            out an armorer locally, most will open their shop up
                            to those that wish to learn, or if you need to "
                            cheat" for the time being.... please feel free to
                            contact me if you ever out to chicago. Id be happy to
                            work with you so you can learn to pound steel while
                            making a menpo.
                            ---kiyohara

                            --- Diane Taylor <qara0@...> wrote:

                            > It is a fair question, Wodeford.
                            >
                            > And you are correct in your assumption. I have
                            > neither
                            > the skills to work with metal, nor the time or money
                            > it would take to aquire such things. The only metal
                            > working I seem to be good at is Chainmail.. and I
                            > once
                            > helped a friend make Kusari. He needed the help to
                            > get
                            > an item done before an event, so he asked me to help
                            > him out.
                            >
                            > However, I DO know how to work with leather and I
                            > have
                            > several thicknesses of the stuff laying around.
                            > When working with wax hardening, you tend to keep a
                            > lot of that stuff handy.
                            > When I actually become a famous *yeah right* author,
                            > I'll try and attempt metal working. But until then,
                            > I'll stick with leather. :D
                            >
                            > Namaste,
                            > Qara Unegen - Who will one day make an alter ego
                            > Japanese Persona.
                            >
                            > --- wodeford <wodeford@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, michael A
                            > > <kiyokage@y...> wrote:
                            > > > A fair question possed... i hope you'll see
                            > this
                            > > as a
                            > > > fair and genuine answer,
                            > > >
                            > > > Why "cheat" at all?
                            > >
                            > > I was proceeding on the assumption (which may have
                            > > been erroneous)
                            > > that a cheat was necessary due to lack of
                            > > metalworking skills and/or
                            > > tools and suggested leather as being a little
                            > easier
                            > > to deal with.
                            > > That's all.
                            > >
                            > > Makiwara
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
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                          • madnative81
                            Being into weaving, I ve learned a few interesting tidbits about various fibers that are native to Japan. Hemp itself, and as it relates to Japanese culture,
                            Message 13 of 16 , Aug 5, 2005
                              Being into weaving, I've learned a few interesting tidbits about
                              various fibers that are native to Japan. Hemp itself, and as it
                              relates to Japanese culture, is quite unique.
                              Firstly, as Solveig-dono pointed out, it takes on dyes poorly. Even
                              with strong, modern chemical dyes, one tends to only get hemp to take
                              on fairly earthen hues, or at the most, very deep purples or blues
                              from working the bejeezers out of it. :o)
                              If memory serves me right, the Japanese learned this fairly early on,
                              I think in the Heian era. From there, a couple of Shinto religous
                              nutters contemplated why this was (I'm guessing to cover up their
                              addiction), and started claiming it was a "pure" gift from Ameratsu
                              or some of the other higher-ups in the Shinto mythology pantheon, and
                              thus would not allow itself to be tainted/altered.
                              So even after dying methods improved in period, it was, and still is,
                              often left in its natural color for religous ceremonies and purposes.
                              Not to draw conjectures, but the kamishimo we're looking at may be
                              designed to that end.

                              My two sen worth,
                              Nagamochi


                              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir
                              <nostrand@a...> wrote:
                              > Noble Cousin!
                              >
                              > Greetings from Solveig! This particular kamishimo is made from hemp
                              > which I suspect does not take colour particularly well. There are a
                              few
                              > other less nice possibilities related to seppuku.
                              >
                              >
                              Your Humble Servant
                              >
                              Solveig Throndardottir
                              >
                              Amateur Scholar
                              >
                              > +-------------------------------------------------------------------
                              ---+
                              > | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS,
                              Fleur |
                              > | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis
                              Est |
                              > | mailto:nostrand@a... | mailto:Solveig@d... |
                              > +-------------------------------------------------------------------
                              ---+
                              > | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed
                              to |
                              > | the trash by my email
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                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Donald Luby
                              ... I would think it would be legal, with the following conditions: 1. it be completely covered by your (otherwise completely legal) face grill and neck armor;
                              Message 14 of 16 , Aug 8, 2005
                                On Aug 1, 2005, at 5:22 PM, Diane Taylor wrote:

                                > If one is fighting with a Mempo behind a face grill, can one
                                > conceivably cheat (choke gasp.. CHEATING?? MOI??) and use a
                                > lightweight plastic instead?
                                >
                                > Oh, not too obviously by using some really strange colored plastic,
                                > I'm talking about maybe using the blue plastic, sanding it down and
                                > spray painting it black.
                                >
                                > Would that work behind a full face grill?
                                >
                                > Please, any and all info would be greatly appreciated.

                                I would think it would be legal, with the following conditions:

                                1. it be completely covered by your (otherwise completely legal) face
                                grill and neck armor;
                                2. it be made of shatterproof plastic (the same requirements as
                                glasses, for the same reasons - we don't want sharp shards of plastic
                                inside your helmet during combat);
                                3. it be snugly strapped down so as to not slide out of place (esp. if
                                it were to block your vision or air if it were to do so);
                                4. it not interfere with the attachment mechanism(s) of your helmet
                                (i.e. it doesn't cause your chinstrap to side and thus the helmet
                                rotate, or reduce the effectiveness of the protective qualities of the
                                helmet, &c).

                                On top of all this, I'd recommend that any place where the was direct
                                contact between the menpo and the helmet (incl helmet padding), which
                                I'd try to avoid, that the menpo be padded so as to not be driven into
                                your head by an impact on the helmet.


                                > Namaste,
                                > Qara Unegen


                                Sir Koredono
                                AEthelmearc Earl Marshal
                              • Diane Taylor
                                Okay, I know there are a lot of you guys out there who are more knowledgeable *pardon the misspellings, new keyboard* in these topics than myself so bear with
                                Message 15 of 16 , Mar 3, 2006
                                  Okay, I know there are a lot of you guys out there who
                                  are more knowledgeable *pardon the misspellings, new
                                  keyboard* in these topics than myself so bear with my
                                  inept questions. :D

                                  Nuns, did they go beyond their monestary walls to beg
                                  for alms food?

                                  Is there any record of the life of a Zen Nun in the
                                  allowed SCA timeline.

                                  I'm thinking of creating a Zen persona as backup plan
                                  in case my asthma kicks in again and I can't fight.

                                  Of course, if any moneytary stuff was involved, I'd be
                                  donating it to the Great Western War, which will be my
                                  big event for the year.

                                  Any ideas, hints, or just plain giggles and grins at
                                  my thought?

                                  Thanks in advance for any finger pointing in the right
                                  direction.
                                  Qara Unegen

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