Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [SCA-JML] Correct Titles?

Expand Messages
  • Solveig Throndardottir
    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! You appear to be interested in the so-called Alternate Title List . The last version of this list which I saw was
    Message 1 of 6 , Jul 29, 2005
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      Noble Cousin!

      Greetings from Solveig! You appear to be interested in the so-called
      "Alternate Title List". The last version of this list which I saw was
      listing post 1886 Japanese inventions. As you will note, the 1980
      article which you are referring to states that the goal of the College
      of Arms was to pick and choose between Victorian inventions. The
      College of Arms abandoned this goal less than ten years later.

      Unless you are living in a kingdom which insists that you use the
      alternate title list, I suggest that you adopt the following approach
      instead: 1) Decide upon which era and class (kuge v. buke) you wish to
      recreate and how you wish to approach things in general. 2) Then pick
      an appropriate historical Japanese title &c based on these decisions
      and your current Society ranks and awards.

      Baron Edward tends to strongly advocate using imperial court ranks. I
      believe that they are only appropriate for some people and generally
      for those interested in the Nara, Heian, or possibly early Kamakura
      periods. However, there are pre-court rank titles which are more
      appropriate for those interested in pre-Taika Japan. There are also a
      lot of interesting titles, offices, &c. which were invented in
      post-Heian Japan. I also disagree with Baron Edward as to who to
      identify the king and queen with and what court rank to equate Society
      ranks with. In general, I advocate a more era-specific and even
      persona-specific approach.

      So. What are you trying to accomplish and why? Finally, you should be
      able to find the Alternate Title List by going to www.sca.org and
      following the heraldry links. However, i really hope that I have talked
      you out of slavishly using it.

      Your Humble Servant
      Solveig Throndardottir
      Amateur Scholar

      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
      | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
      | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
      | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
      | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
      | the trash by my email filters. |
      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Solveig Throndardottir
      Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! The twenty plus year old note from Master Wilhelm von Schlüssel not only dates from a time which from which the College
      Message 2 of 6 , Jul 29, 2005
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment
        Noble Cousins!

        Greetings from Solveig! The twenty plus year old note from Master
        Wilhelm von Schl�ssel not only dates from a time which from which the
        College of Arms no longer gives much credence, it contains a number of
        factual errors, poor opinions, and is at variance with the published
        Alternate Title List. So it really is of no particular use. I will
        comment on specifics after the following quote:

        > On the matter of titles. I propose to match the following Japanese
        > titles to English equivalents. Shogun shall be an alternate to King.
        > Daimyo shall be an alternate for Prince, and Hatamato shall be an
        > alternate for Baron. AS there are no other Japanese titles, I feel we
        > should use the three for the ruling nobles. There are no female forms,
        > as there never were any female rulers in Japan. Does anybody know how
        > to add a female ending to these? Armigerous persons with Japanese
        > personae can indicate their nobility by adding the suffix �san or
        > �sama in the given name. At this time I do not wish to formalize this,
        > but I include it for possible use.

        1) Daimyo is not historically a title or an office. The "daimyo" (lit.
        big name) generally held the office of shugo which were originally
        military provincial constables and evolved in military provincial
        governors. They were essentially equivalent to barons and shire reaves
        in the context of England or possibly counts in France.

        2) There are dozens if not hundreds of Japanese titles. The problem is
        not too few available titles, offices, &c,, but an overabundance of
        them.

        3) There were female rulers in Japan. At least this is the case if you
        look sufficiently early.

        4) Historically, the titles used by female rulers are typically
        identical to those used by male rulers. The reason for this is that
        Japanese does not generally conjugate for gender. There appear to be
        some exceptions to this, but only in very old Japanese.

        5) The business about -san and -sama is not only mistaken, but has been
        extensively discussed here. First of all, neither of these are titular
        nor are they offices they are a kind of polite decoration. Second, you
        do not normally add either of these to your own names. You add them as
        a kind of courtesy to the names of others. Third, san is a contraction
        of sama, does not have (to the best of my recollection) kanji, and is
        most likely modern. Sama does have kanji. In modern usage, sama is a
        very generic polite ending that you put after peoples names when you
        address letters, &c. Fourth hatamoto (bannermen) were simply field
        staff officers employed by generals. Hatamoto only becomes a kind of
        rank after 1600.
        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar

        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
        | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
        | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
        | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
        | the trash by my email filters. |
        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Kawakami Kenshin
        http://www.sca.org/heraldry/titles.html ... From: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sca-jml@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jason Silver Sent: Friday, July 29,
        Message 3 of 6 , Jul 30, 2005
        View Source
        • 0 Attachment
          http://www.sca.org/heraldry/titles.html

          -----Original Message-----
          From: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sca-jml@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
          Jason Silver
          Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 11:50 AM
          To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [SCA-JML] Correct Titles?

          Greetings all!!

          I am just on a super quick break and really havent had a lot time to
          research this so I am sorry if I am missing an easy link or a past
          message..

          I am wondering if any one might be able to help.. I am looking for a
          list of titles for reference.

          If you look at this list (
          http://www.sca.org/heraldry/loar/1980/12/cl.htm ) I am sure you will
          understand to what I am refering. I am sure there must be a Japanese
          version, but as of yet this morning have had no luck in finding it..

          I took a speed look at Sengoku Daimyo briefly, but couldnt find any
          thing that would help in this manner..

          Does any one have a quick list or link that I can read or do further
          research from? :)

          Thank you all

          Imakawa





          UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          Yahoo! Groups Links
        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.