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Correct Titles?

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  • Jason Silver
    Greetings all!! I am just on a super quick break and really havent had a lot time to research this so I am sorry if I am missing an easy link or a past
    Message 1 of 6 , Jul 29 10:50 AM
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      Greetings all!!

      I am just on a super quick break and really havent had a lot time to
      research this so I am sorry if I am missing an easy link or a past
      message..

      I am wondering if any one might be able to help.. I am looking for a
      list of titles for reference.

      If you look at this list (
      http://www.sca.org/heraldry/loar/1980/12/cl.htm ) I am sure you will
      understand to what I am refering. I am sure there must be a Japanese
      version, but as of yet this morning have had no luck in finding it..

      I took a speed look at Sengoku Daimyo briefly, but couldnt find any
      thing that would help in this manner..

      Does any one have a quick list or link that I can read or do further
      research from? :)

      Thank you all

      Imakawa
    • Otagiri Tatsuzou
      ... The official SCA list is here: http://www.sca.org/heraldry/titles.html#table9 These titles are rather modern. Some commentary ... The class of nobles
      Message 2 of 6 , Jul 29 11:06 AM
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        > Greetings all!!
        >
        > I am wondering if any one might be able to help.. I am looking for a
        > list of titles for reference.
        >
        > Imakawa

        The "official" SCA list is here:
        http://www.sca.org/heraldry/titles.html#table9

        These titles are rather modern. Some commentary ...

        "The class of nobles (Kwasoku) comprises the ancient nobles of the
        court (Kuge), the ancient lords of the provinces (Daimio), and those
        who have been ennobled since the Restoration, or the new nobility
        (Shin-Kwasoku). Graduated titles were created in 1884 for these nobles
        of various degrees, in Japanese, Ko, Ko, Haku, Shi, and Dan,
        corresponding to duke, marquess, count, viscount, and baron. Nobility
        is hereditary, and on 31 March, 1908, this class consisted of 15 dukes
        (Ko), 36 marquesses (Ko), 100 counts (Haku), 375 viscounts (Shi), and
        376 barons (Dan), that is, 902 families comprising 4600 members, which
        form the Japanese aristocracy."
        http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08297a.htm


        For a Hiraizumi-no-asons suggested list is here:
        http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/miscellany/address.html


        Otagiri Tatsuzou
        Squire to Sir Nicholas de Kane
        Kenin of the Hatakeyama
      • wodeford
        ... You blew right by it. Go to http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/miscellany/miscellany.html and click on Modes of Address in the menu at the left. Oh, look, I m
        Message 3 of 6 , Jul 29 4:53 PM
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          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Silver" <BATTLEWEAR@s...> wrote:

          > I took a speed look at Sengoku Daimyo briefly, but couldnt find any
          > thing that would help in this manner..

          You blew right by it. Go to
          http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/miscellany/miscellany.html and click on
          "Modes of Address" in the menu at the left. Oh, look, I'm senior
          seventh court rank. ;->

          Makiwara
        • Solveig Throndardottir
          Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! You appear to be interested in the so-called Alternate Title List . The last version of this list which I saw was
          Message 4 of 6 , Jul 29 9:47 PM
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            Noble Cousin!

            Greetings from Solveig! You appear to be interested in the so-called
            "Alternate Title List". The last version of this list which I saw was
            listing post 1886 Japanese inventions. As you will note, the 1980
            article which you are referring to states that the goal of the College
            of Arms was to pick and choose between Victorian inventions. The
            College of Arms abandoned this goal less than ten years later.

            Unless you are living in a kingdom which insists that you use the
            alternate title list, I suggest that you adopt the following approach
            instead: 1) Decide upon which era and class (kuge v. buke) you wish to
            recreate and how you wish to approach things in general. 2) Then pick
            an appropriate historical Japanese title &c based on these decisions
            and your current Society ranks and awards.

            Baron Edward tends to strongly advocate using imperial court ranks. I
            believe that they are only appropriate for some people and generally
            for those interested in the Nara, Heian, or possibly early Kamakura
            periods. However, there are pre-court rank titles which are more
            appropriate for those interested in pre-Taika Japan. There are also a
            lot of interesting titles, offices, &c. which were invented in
            post-Heian Japan. I also disagree with Baron Edward as to who to
            identify the king and queen with and what court rank to equate Society
            ranks with. In general, I advocate a more era-specific and even
            persona-specific approach.

            So. What are you trying to accomplish and why? Finally, you should be
            able to find the Alternate Title List by going to www.sca.org and
            following the heraldry links. However, i really hope that I have talked
            you out of slavishly using it.

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar

            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
            | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
            | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
            | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
            | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
            | the trash by my email filters. |
            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Solveig Throndardottir
            Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! The twenty plus year old note from Master Wilhelm von Schlüssel not only dates from a time which from which the College
            Message 5 of 6 , Jul 29 10:57 PM
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              Noble Cousins!

              Greetings from Solveig! The twenty plus year old note from Master
              Wilhelm von Schl�ssel not only dates from a time which from which the
              College of Arms no longer gives much credence, it contains a number of
              factual errors, poor opinions, and is at variance with the published
              Alternate Title List. So it really is of no particular use. I will
              comment on specifics after the following quote:

              > On the matter of titles. I propose to match the following Japanese
              > titles to English equivalents. Shogun shall be an alternate to King.
              > Daimyo shall be an alternate for Prince, and Hatamato shall be an
              > alternate for Baron. AS there are no other Japanese titles, I feel we
              > should use the three for the ruling nobles. There are no female forms,
              > as there never were any female rulers in Japan. Does anybody know how
              > to add a female ending to these? Armigerous persons with Japanese
              > personae can indicate their nobility by adding the suffix �san or
              > �sama in the given name. At this time I do not wish to formalize this,
              > but I include it for possible use.

              1) Daimyo is not historically a title or an office. The "daimyo" (lit.
              big name) generally held the office of shugo which were originally
              military provincial constables and evolved in military provincial
              governors. They were essentially equivalent to barons and shire reaves
              in the context of England or possibly counts in France.

              2) There are dozens if not hundreds of Japanese titles. The problem is
              not too few available titles, offices, &c,, but an overabundance of
              them.

              3) There were female rulers in Japan. At least this is the case if you
              look sufficiently early.

              4) Historically, the titles used by female rulers are typically
              identical to those used by male rulers. The reason for this is that
              Japanese does not generally conjugate for gender. There appear to be
              some exceptions to this, but only in very old Japanese.

              5) The business about -san and -sama is not only mistaken, but has been
              extensively discussed here. First of all, neither of these are titular
              nor are they offices they are a kind of polite decoration. Second, you
              do not normally add either of these to your own names. You add them as
              a kind of courtesy to the names of others. Third, san is a contraction
              of sama, does not have (to the best of my recollection) kanji, and is
              most likely modern. Sama does have kanji. In modern usage, sama is a
              very generic polite ending that you put after peoples names when you
              address letters, &c. Fourth hatamoto (bannermen) were simply field
              staff officers employed by generals. Hatamoto only becomes a kind of
              rank after 1600.
              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar

              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
              | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
              | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
              | the trash by my email filters. |
              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Kawakami Kenshin
              http://www.sca.org/heraldry/titles.html ... From: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sca-jml@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jason Silver Sent: Friday, July 29,
              Message 6 of 6 , Jul 30 9:36 AM
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                http://www.sca.org/heraldry/titles.html

                -----Original Message-----
                From: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sca-jml@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                Jason Silver
                Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 11:50 AM
                To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [SCA-JML] Correct Titles?

                Greetings all!!

                I am just on a super quick break and really havent had a lot time to
                research this so I am sorry if I am missing an easy link or a past
                message..

                I am wondering if any one might be able to help.. I am looking for a
                list of titles for reference.

                If you look at this list (
                http://www.sca.org/heraldry/loar/1980/12/cl.htm ) I am sure you will
                understand to what I am refering. I am sure there must be a Japanese
                version, but as of yet this morning have had no luck in finding it..

                I took a speed look at Sengoku Daimyo briefly, but couldnt find any
                thing that would help in this manner..

                Does any one have a quick list or link that I can read or do further
                research from? :)

                Thank you all

                Imakawa





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