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Re: [SCA-JML] A bunch of questions(was:Spiffy book )

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  • Anthony J. Bryant
    ... Well, *sometimes* you can, but you have to change the ending. Remember that adjectives with gozaru change from -i to - so it s not yomitaku but
    Message 1 of 46 , Oct 3, 2000
      Joshua Badgley wrote:

      > On Mon, 2 Oct 2000, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:
      > > The big thing is, if it can't have the "de/ni," it can't have "gozaru" -- and
      > > "yomitaku de gozaru" is an impossible construction. The thing is, to use
      > > gozaru, it has to follow either a noun, or an adjective.
      > >
      > > (Note: one can now actually say "yomitai desu" or "yomitai da naa..." but
      > > that's when you're talking to yourself, or being VERY informal, like talking
      > > to your dad when he brings home a copy of Playbushi. { g } )
      > Ahhh... here is my big problem grammatically; I find myself wanting to
      > treat '-tai' as an i-adjective--bad Godric.

      Well, *sometimes* you can, but you have to change the ending. Remember that
      adjectives with "gozaru" change from "-i" to "-" so it's not "yomitaku" but
      "yomitou". But such usage is kinda limited.

      > > (BTW, gozaru isn't the *humble* form of aru/ari; it's the *honorific* form of
      > > aru/ari. )
      > Doh! My other bad. Let me see if I can recall this correctly: "go-" is
      > the honorific, "za" was something like 'here', and "aru" was 'to exist',
      > is that correct (gozaaru->gozaru)

      Close. "Go" is honorific, and the rest is "Zaru" -- "to sit."

      > So, when talking about oneself to an equal or greater, should one use
      > 'aru' and 'zonjiru', and then 'gozaru' and 'gozonjiru' when talking about
      > equals or greater?

      No; one should always use gozaru regardless of the subject when speaking to
      superiors. "Ue-sama, watakushi-me wa tada no tsuwamono ni gozaru." ("Sire, I am
      but a warrior")

      > Do you use honorific for yourself when talking to those beneath you? I
      > was never clear on that, although in modern times there rarely is such a
      > case, AFAIK (unless you are dealing with less savory elements).

      No. Bad form. You never use honorifics for yourself, no matter how exalted. That
      would make you seem peculiar. Instead, if you want to be snotty, you'd make a
      point of using all the humbling words for whoever you're talking to. You use
      common verbs for them. If I, as a muckety-muck, were addressing one of my flunkies
      (if I *had* flunkies), I would ask what they were doing by saying, "Nani wo
      itasu?" instead of "Nani wo suru?" (And I would use "suru" to refer to what I was
      doing). Likewise, if I were addressing the king, I would use itasu for MYSELF, and
      for HIM I'd say, "Nani wo nasaru?" -- nasaru being the honorific, suru the common,
      and itasu the humble of "to do".

      Of course, there's also a whole spate of suffices (they are often called
      "auxiliary verbs") that mark politeness even more. Examples like "haberi" and
      "tatematsuru" and "sourou" added to a verb make it more or less formal and
      honorific. (e.g., the earlier example of "zonji tatematsuru."

      > I also have some other questions I need to ask. I have obtained patterns
      > for nagabakama and another style; the second is Fujiwara kyohirakou
      > shiroheiken-awasebakama. This latter seems more like the style of hakama
      > seen today, less the stiff backboard that I'm not sure existed before the
      > Tokugawa.
      > In another book I found pictures of kobakama and karibakama and was
      > wondering how they differed from the two above, and what would be
      > appropriate to a man of the mid-late 16th Century. I am thinking that
      > Kobakama is the way to go for me, but I'm not sure how to bunch it at the
      > bottom. Other illustrations seem to show a cord that runs through the
      > bottom hem. Any suggestions?

      Oy, what a can of worms. {g}

      Here, unedited, are some notes I made for the CA on garb:

      Hakama: According to Takada, bushi did not go out in public without hakama on. By
      the end of the Momoyama period, when relaxing at home or in the garden, a bushi
      may wear only a kosode and no hakama, but this is an exceptional circumstance.
      The width of the front and back panel were the same (c. 27 cm. wide) until the
      late Muromachi period, when the rear width was reduced to its modern width of
      about two-thirds that of the front. The rear ties also became narrower (having
      previously been the same as those in front). Some hakama apparently had the hems
      made narrower than the body in imitation of the ballooning trousers worn by the

      Hanbakama: Hakama that follow the normal pattern but are typically only long
      enough to reach the knees. They were worn by lower-class samurai during the
      sengoku period. The same term would be applied (with appropriate confusion) to
      regular, ankle-length hakama during the Edo period when nagabakama became official
      wear for samurai. A similar shorter (and slightly tighter-fitting) hakama was worn
      by servants during the Heian and Kamakura periods.

      Hitatare hakama: The hakama of hitatare first had ankle cords attached in the
      manner of the wrist ties in the latter days of the Heian period. Like suikan
      hakama, it was typically of six-panel (rather than four-panel) make. Hakama worn
      with hitatare and suo (especially as kamishimo) had white waist ties. Hakama worn
      with suo had ties of the same cloth as the hakama.

      Suikan hakama: This type of hakama developed early in the Kamakura period to be
      worn with the suikan. Like that garment, it had kikutoji at easily-torn locations
      (specifically the tops of the side seams at the base of the folded-out section) as
      well as other places. The fabric was of a different color or pattern than the
      suikan. It was often dyed in a style called susogo, in which the bottom was a deep
      color fading to white or off-white at the top. Unlike the four-panel kobakama worn
      with the older style suikan, the suikan hakama was made with six panels as those
      worn with a kariginu for a more full silhouette. It was often made like
      sashinuki, to be tied closed at the ankle or knee.

      So... when you say "ko/han bakama" -- exactly which garment are you talking about,
      the normal length hakama, or the bermuda shorts model?

      As for ankle ties; that goes with a hitatare type garment, but the ankle ties are
      never pulled unless you're in armour. The hakama with ties which balloon are
      called sashinuki, and are part of court garb wear. They're also about 50% longer
      than regular hakama.

      The Fujiwara pattern is Heian; the other pattern is close to late period models.
      I'll be putting some basic hakama diagrams into the files section of the group in
      a few days. I have to clean them up first, and I'll put 'em in when I also put in
      kataginu patterns.

      > Finally, on the subject of names, I am looking at several names and the
      > kanji for it. For family names I am looking at Takeda (Takeda Shingen),
      > Katou (Katou Kiyomasa), or Ii (Ii Naomasa), all of which I know the kanji
      > for. For first names I am looking at Kenshin (Uesugi Kenshin), and
      > haven't found another personal name that I like as well yet.
      > Unfortunately, I can't find Uesugi Kenshin's kanji. Help would be
      > appreciated.

      Well, I wouldn't suggest Kenshin's name. It's virtually unique. A similarity in
      Western usage in the SCA could be, "Robert the Lionhearted" or "Walter Bloodaxe."
      Kenshin, is, of course, like Shingen, a homyo (a name taken upon entry into holy
      orders). His given name was Kagetora. I feel safe in suggesting you not use this
      because for a few months 15 or 18 years ago I was using "Honda Shingen" as my
      Japanese name, and even then it seemed... wrong. So I know this problem { g }.

      Do you have a Nelson's? If you do, I can just give you kanji numbers in the

    • Marc Choronzey
      That s another one I forgot to ask about: Does anybody have a reliable yoroi hitatare pattern? -Shimaha.
      Message 46 of 46 , Oct 9, 2000
        That's another one I forgot to ask about:

        Does anybody have a reliable yoroi hitatare pattern?

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