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Re: Opinion on pattern

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  • makiwara_no_yetsuko
    ... Remember, you re trying to fake a brocade, so a repeated pattern motif would do that. ... I liked the single crane, but it s not the sort of thing one sees
    Message 1 of 30 , Jun 2, 2005
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      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Deanna" <shad0wdr3am@y...> wrote:
      > *laughs* Ok.. Well, after a little discussion with him, he thinks he
      > could afford it. (and besides, if not, I'll give it to him as a gift.
      > ;) ) I'd be doing a surihaku fake for sure, probably in silver. Do you
      > have any suggestions as to how the design would work in best though?

      Remember, you're trying to fake a brocade, so a repeated pattern motif
      would do that.

      > I'm guessing that the single crane wouldn't be quite right, as I've
      > not really come across much with just the one bold design on the back.

      I liked the single crane, but it's not the sort of thing one sees in
      pre 1600 garments.

      Other things that you might have fun with - a pieced garment using
      alternating blocks of color! If you recall Solveig-hime's recent post
      about recycling garment fabric, it's not only period appropriate, but
      you can get some interesting results. There's a surihaku kosode in one
      of my books that's made of alternating panels of red and white silk
      with a floral motif stencilled over it. It's a very period thing to
      do and I'm going to have to try it at some point. (Eep. Not ANOTHER
      project!)

      M.
    • Solveig
      Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! While there were various garments made from salvaged fabric, I do not believe that the surihaku kosode is one of them.
      Message 2 of 30 , Jun 2, 2005
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        Noble Cousins!

        Greetings from Solveig! While there were various garments made from
        salvaged fabric, I do not believe that the "surihaku kosode" is one
        of them. The reason for this is that the blocks systematically match.
        While I do believe that kamon originated in Chinese brocade patterns,
        I do not believe that brocade was the only way in which they were
        applied in period. Rather, I beleive that they were often printed and
        similarly produced. There is patterned cloth in premodern Japan which
        is definitely not brocade. For example the interconnected blue and
        white arrow fletching pattern which is rather old. I'm pretty sure
        that it is not brocade. Another rather radical pattern is produced by
        sumi on water. It poduces a black swirled pattern.
        --

        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar

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      • makiwara_no_yetsuko
        ... I m looking at Money Hickman s Japan s Golden Age: Momoyama. Two large patches of red and white plain weave silk with gold foil designs of branches of
        Message 3 of 30 , Jun 2, 2005
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          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig <nostrand@a...> wrote:
          > Greetings from Solveig! While there were various garments made from
          > salvaged fabric, I do not believe that the "surihaku kosode" is one
          > of them. The reason for this is that the blocks systematically match.

          I'm looking at Money Hickman's "Japan's Golden Age: Momoyama." "Two
          large patches of red and white plain weave silk with gold foil designs
          of branches of weeping cherry extend from the shoulders to just above
          the waist. Below these, five smaller patches are sttched together at
          the center of the back." [That should be ten - back view photo shows
          red left sleeve, white left top back, red right top back, white right
          sleeve, with five alternating patches of narrower width below on each
          side of the back seam.] It goes on to say that "The uneven size of the
          red and white blocks as well as the difference in style, scale and
          arrangement of the floral sprays indicates that this robe was pieced
          together from parts of two different garments."

          Chapter 5 of Seiroku Noma's "Japanese Costume and Textile Arts"
          discusses pieced garments. Presumably, the necessity of recycling old
          clothes into new for the lower classes inspired imitations in more
          luxurious garments.

          > While I do believe that kamon originated in Chinese brocade patterns,
          > I do not believe that brocade was the only way in which they were
          > applied in period. Rather, I beleive that they were often printed and
          > similarly produced.
          Resist dyeing too.

          > There is patterned cloth in premodern Japan which
          > is definitely not brocade.
          Pictorial evidence from period shows decorated fabric being worn even
          by the humblest classes. Stripes, plaids, printed motifs, resist or
          tie-dye techniques....

          For example the interconnected blue and
          > white arrow fletching pattern which is rather old. I'm pretty sure
          > that it is not brocade.
          Like this stuff? ;->
          http://www.ichiroya.com/sp/list.php?pg=0&spid=S3f8979c610f38

          M.






          Another rather radical pattern is produced by
          > sumi on water. It poduces a black swirled pattern.
          > --
          >
          > Your Humble Servant
          > Solveig Throndardottir
          > Amateur Scholar
          >
          >
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        • Deanna
          Thank you both so much for all your help. The wheels are turning now, hopefully I ll get it to all fall into place, and come up with something my husband, who
          Message 4 of 30 , Jun 3, 2005
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            Thank you both so much for all your help. The wheels are turning now,
            hopefully I'll get it to all fall into place, and come up with
            something my husband, who likes things understated, will actually
            wear. I'm starting to think, if I want to make the more interesting
            and intricate clothing (like the pieced garments).. I'm going to have
            to join the ranks and make myself a japanese persona, as my husband
            and his friend just aren't daring enough. ;) These VERY celtic
            features though, are a hindrance.

            Anyway, I'll be working on reducing the crane design to something that
            actually works well. I'm still trying to decide whether to place it on
            a dobuku though, or try and figure out how to tie it in to the hakama
            for the hitatare. And possibly, as suggested, I'll make a jinbaori if
            he really wants the large crane (This picture here, I think is a good
            example of what you were saying?
            http://rhinohide.cx/tousando/yoriaku/img/figures/fig39.png). Also, the
            obi idea is a great one, as I KNOW I can get him to wear more flashy
            stuff if it's just a small piece. ;)

            I made a trip to the library yesterday, and came home with Japan: A
            History in Art, by Bradley Smith, The Kimono Mind, by Bernard
            Rudofsky (no idea as far as content goes on that one, but it has some
            good pictures, some dating back to the 1500's), and got two
            inter-library loan requests out. (Kimono: Fashioning Culture by Liza
            Dalby and Japanese Costume and Textile Arts by Seiroku Noma) So, I'll
            have more to fuel the creative fires.

            Again, thank you both for all the help. It is GREATLY appreciated.
            It's nice to have people who know what they're doing, to use as a
            sounding board for my crazy ideas. ;) I'll post up pictures of the
            finished product, whenever I actually get there.

            ~Deanna
          • Solveig
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Touche! Point taken. Do your sources go on to say anything in particular about the context in which these garments
            Message 5 of 30 , Jun 3, 2005
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              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig!

              >Chapter 5 of Seiroku Noma's "Japanese Costume and Textile Arts"
              >discusses pieced garments. Presumably, the necessity of recycling old
              >clothes into new for the lower classes inspired imitations in more
              >luxurious garments.

              Touche! Point taken. Do your sources go on to say anything in
              particular about the context in which these garments appear? Formal
              portraits don't go in for this sort of garment all that much. I'm
              mostly used to looking at formal portraits to discover how people's
              names are written.

              Looking up "surihaku", Daijirin notes the use of gold and slver leaf.
              Daijirin also goes on to give a second meaning which refers
              specifically to a garment worn in the Noh theatre. While I am
              familiar with such garments in the Noh theatre, I have always thought
              of them as a bit peculiar as they do not appear to correspond all
              that well to garments worn by people outside of a stage play. That
              is, they are really hard to find in iconographic evidence such as
              formal portraits, street scenes, &c. I've wondered whether or not
              some of the stuff found in Noh garments is not an exageration for
              theatric effect.

              Having written all of the above, I thought I would try looking things
              up a bit. Always a good idea. Unfortuanately, I am sometimes rather
              lazy and want to chat more than I want to be scrupulously accurate.
              Regardless, Edo Fukushokushi (Costume History of the Edo Period) by
              Kanazawa Yasutaka has a rather extended article about "surihaku".
              Appparently, early technique used gold or silver leaf which appears
              to have been first glued to the fabric and then stitched in place.
              Later on, gold or silver thread replaced gold or silver leaf.
              Apparently some care was made to hide stitches. Early poetry appears
              to associate this sort of garment with women or rather specifically
              wives. Kanazawa also mentions use of these garments as special
              ceremonial robes. One more thing which you may find interesting is
              the evolution of all golden garments without any pattern at all. This
              is what I am getting from a brief thumbing through of the article. I
              really should read it more carefully.

              The overall pattern of the proposed garment is another issue. The
              overall aesthetic suggests that it would be from a later period,
              however the bird is placed over the spot where a kamon would most
              likely appear, but is not of the general form or dimmensions of a
              kamon. Further, while we see shoulder treatments in Edo period
              garments, these shoulder treatments (at least in the illustrations in
              Edo Fukushokushi) are of repeated patterns.
              --

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar

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            • Solveig
              Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Yes. although it is not the exact illustration I was recalling. This is a good thing as it shows that the practice
              Message 6 of 30 , Jun 3, 2005
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                Noble Cousin!

                Greetings from Solveig!
                >he really wants the large crane (This picture here, I think is a good
                >example of what you were saying?
                >http://rhinohide.cx/tousando/yoriaku/img/figures/fig39.png). Also, the
                >obi idea is a great one, as I KNOW I can get him to wear more flashy
                >stuff if it's just a small piece. ;)
                Yes. although it is not the exact illustration I was recalling. This
                is a good thing as it shows that the practice was somewhat common.
                You will notice quite a few features:
                1. The Jinbaori has exactly one kamon on it depicted exactly
                once. This kamon
                covers pretty much the entire back. It is really really BIG>
                2. You will notice that the jinbaori is lined with a regular
                pattern print.
                3. You will notice the interesting diamond piece at the top
                of the slit. This
                appears to be partially for structural purposes.
                4. The jinbaori has a print on its skirts. This is decidedly optional.
                --

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar

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              • makiwara_no_yetsuko
                ... I see a lot of what appear to be pieced garments in genre paintings, you know, street scenes, festivals, and such. I ll look around and see if I can cite
                Message 7 of 30 , Jun 3, 2005
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                  --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig <nostrand@a...> wrote:
                  > Touche! Point taken. Do your sources go on to say anything in
                  > particular about the context in which these garments appear? Formal
                  > portraits don't go in for this sort of garment all that much. I'm
                  > mostly used to looking at formal portraits to discover how people's
                  > names are written.
                  I see a lot of what appear to be pieced garments in genre paintings,
                  you know, street scenes, festivals, and such. I'll look around and see
                  if I can cite examples or links when I get home. There's a series of
                  paintings in the Tokyo National Museum listed as "genre paintings of
                  the twelve months" which has people of various classes doing all sorts
                  of things.

                  > Looking up "surihaku", Daijirin notes the use of gold and slver leaf.
                  > Daijirin also goes on to give a second meaning which refers
                  > specifically to a garment worn in the Noh theatre. While I am
                  > familiar with such garments in the Noh theatre, I have always thought
                  > of them as a bit peculiar as they do not appear to correspond all
                  > that well to garments worn by people outside of a stage play. That
                  > is, they are really hard to find in iconographic evidence such as
                  > formal portraits, street scenes, &c. I've wondered whether or not
                  > some of the stuff found in Noh garments is not an exageration for
                  > theatric effect.
                  That's certainly possible. I have to wonder whether Noh costumes the
                  period equivalent of Goodwill Store finds, castoffs or donations from
                  wealthy patrons or the like? Metallic leaf is cheaper than kinran, but
                  it's still not cheap!

                  > Regardless, Edo Fukushokushi (Costume History of the Edo Period) by
                  > Kanazawa Yasutaka has a rather extended article about "surihaku".
                  Rats, why do I have the feeling this source is not in English? ;-<

                  > The overall pattern of the proposed garment is another issue. The
                  > overall aesthetic suggests that it would be from a later period,
                  > however the bird is placed over the spot where a kamon would most
                  > likely appear, but is not of the general form or dimmensions of a
                  > kamon. Further, while we see shoulder treatments in Edo period
                  > garments, these shoulder treatments (at least in the illustrations in
                  > Edo Fukushokushi) are of repeated patterns.

                  Have you seen the hem-and-shoulders stuff? Meant to be worn under
                  other robes, there would be sections of embroidered decoration and the
                  rest of the garment would be plain because nobody was going to see it.

                  M.
                • Solveig
                  Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... What I mostly see in street scenes are printed garments. There are quite a lot of prints, woven patterns, and what
                  Message 8 of 30 , Jun 3, 2005
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                    Noble Cousin!

                    Greetings from Solveig!
                    >I see a lot of what appear to be pieced garments in genre paintings,
                    >you know, street scenes, festivals, and such. I'll look around and see
                    >if I can cite examples or links when I get home. There's a series of
                    >paintings in the Tokyo National Museum listed as "genre paintings of
                    >the twelve months" which has people of various classes doing all sorts
                    >of things.
                    What I mostly see in street scenes are printed garments. There are
                    quite a lot of prints, woven patterns, and what naught that might
                    appear to be piecework.
                    >That's certainly possible. I have to wonder whether Noh costumes the
                    >period equivalent of Goodwill Store finds, castoffs or donations from
                    >wealthy patrons or the like? Metallic leaf is cheaper than kinran, but
                    >it's still not cheap!
                    Modern Noh costumes are of course extremely expensive.
                    > > Regardless, Edo Fukushokushi (Costume History of the Edo Period) by
                    >> Kanazawa Yasutaka has a rather extended article about "surihaku".
                    >Rats, why do I have the feeling this source is not in English? ;-<
                    Aside from the Japanese title? No, it isn't in English.
                    >Have you seen the hem-and-shoulders stuff? Meant to be worn under
                    >other robes, there would be sections of embroidered decoration and the
                    >rest of the garment would be plain because nobody was going to see it.
                    There are some fairly simple embroidery patterns which one sees quite
                    a lot of. These are all large geometrically regular patterns. These
                    patterns are either applied to the entire garment or sometimes to say
                    the uppoer half. I think that, aside from decoration, these pattern
                    produce a kind of multi-layer quilt which is a bit stronger than a
                    single layer would have been. I have a fukusa size piece of
                    embroidered material which was given to me. This is a double layer
                    affair and is embroidered with a pattern of interlocking circles.
                    --

                    Your Humble Servant
                    Solveig Throndardottir
                    Amateur Scholar

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                  • makiwara_no_yetsuko
                    ... sorts of things. The example in Noma is from Kasuga Gongen Miracles Picture Scroll from the Imperial Household collection. In it there s a kneeling figure
                    Message 9 of 30 , Jun 3, 2005
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                      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "makiwara_no_yetsuko"
                      <makiwara_no_yetsuko@y...> wrote:
                      > I see a lot of what appear to be pieced garments in genre paintings,
                      > you know, street scenes, festivals, and such. I'll look around and see
                      > if I can cite examples or links when I get home. There's a series of
                      > paintings in the Tokyo National Museum listed as "genre paintings of
                      > the twelve months" which has people of various classes doing all
                      sorts of things.

                      The example in Noma is from Kasuga Gongen Miracles Picture Scroll from
                      the Imperial Household collection. In it there's a kneeling figure
                      wearing what is either a quartered kosode or kosode and hakama -
                      lighter patterned fabric is paired with something darker with polka
                      dots (it's a black and white photo).

                      Here's a detail from the above mentioned Muromachi screen paintings
                      (BTW, does anyone know anything about the game they're playing?) While
                      some of the patterning in some of the outfits could be dyed or
                      otherwise achieved, there's a figure in the center of this detail with
                      one green sleeve and one red one - and it's not because he's halfway
                      out of his top robe like some of the other figures. He also appears to
                      be wearing a sword.
                      http://tinyurl.com/aa7f6

                      I also love this vignette from the same series. Evidently power
                      shopping is period:
                      http://tinyurl.com/7nbzt

                      There are some great crowd scenes in a scroll from 1299 called the
                      Ippen Shonin E-den. While I don't think we've got any piecework
                      examples here, I'm going to post one of them because it's got great
                      details like hats, fans, parasols, women wearing their kosode over
                      their heads and so on.

                      http://tinyurl.com/bpcqe

                      M.
                    • Solveig
                      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... You mean the fellow who appears to be wearing a particoloured kosode? There does appear to be stuff like this in the
                      Message 10 of 30 , Jun 4, 2005
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                        Noble Cousin!

                        Greetings from Solveig!
                        >Here's a detail from the above mentioned Muromachi screen paintings
                        >(BTW, does anyone know anything about the game they're playing?) While
                        >some of the patterning in some of the outfits could be dyed or
                        >otherwise achieved, there's a figure in the center of this detail with
                        > one green sleeve and one red one - and it's not because he's halfway
                        >out of his top robe like some of the other figures. He also appears to
                        >be wearing a sword.
                        >http://tinyurl.com/aa7f6
                        You mean the fellow who appears to be wearing a particoloured kosode?
                        There does appear to be stuff like this in the clothing of youths
                        during the Muromachi period. I don't believe that the intent is to
                        reuse cloth so much as to make the garment as gaudy as possible.
                        >I also love this vignette from the same series. Evidently power
                        >shopping is period:
                        >http://tinyurl.com/7nbzt
                        Street scenes are interesting aren't they? Aside from the general
                        amusument of "power shopping", you should notice the preprinted bolts
                        of cloth on offer in the store. Incendentally, I would guess that the
                        kosode being showed off is either : 1) an order being delivered, 2) a
                        store sample, or 3) a used garment. The third option is the least
                        likely of the three. Even today, kimono stores sew to order rather
                        than stocking premade.
                        --

                        Your Humble Servant
                        Solveig Throndardottir
                        Amateur Scholar

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                      • makiwara_no_yetsuko
                        ... I thought I said in my previous post that Noma says that what probably began as fabric re-use in the lower classes caught on as a fashion trend. Speaking
                        Message 11 of 30 , Jun 4, 2005
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                          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig <nostrand@a...> wrote:
                          > There does appear to be stuff like this in the clothing of youths
                          > during the Muromachi period. I don't believe that the intent is to
                          > reuse cloth so much as to make the garment as gaudy as possible.
                          I thought I said in my previous post that Noma says that what probably
                          began as fabric re-use in the lower classes caught on as a fashion
                          trend. Speaking of which, there's a positively hideous dofuku in Noma
                          dating from about 1560 that belonged to Uesugi Kenshin that makes the
                          ball player on the screen painting look positively conservative. It
                          almost looks like a crazy quilt only it's kosode shaped. ;->

                          > Street scenes are interesting aren't they? Aside from the general
                          > amusument of "power shopping", you should notice the preprinted
                          > bolts of cloth on offer in the store.
                          Oh yeah, it's excellent evidence of the kind of patterns that were
                          available. The red and gold check and diamond patterns are wild,
                          aren't they?

                          > Incendentally, I would guess that the kosode being showed off is
                          > either : 1) an order being delivered, 2) a store sample, or 3) a
                          > used garment.
                          Say, that reminds me, there's a scene in the film "Ugetsu" in which
                          the potter visits a kosode shop and imagines making enough of a profit
                          to dress his wife in something beautiful. Filmed in black and white,
                          the sequence is so stunningly filmed, my friend and I were sighing
                          over the garments on display. (This film needs to be released on DVD!)

                          M.
                        • Solveig
                          Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Possible, but unlikely. Fashion tends to move downward throughout Japanese history. Also, cloth reuse tended to be of
                          Message 12 of 30 , Jun 6, 2005
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                            Noble Cousin!

                            Greetings from Solveig!
                            >I thought I said in my previous post that Noma says that what probably
                            >began as fabric re-use in the lower classes caught on as a fashion
                            >trend.
                            Possible, but unlikely. Fashion tends to move downward throughout
                            Japanese history. Also, cloth reuse tended to be of a rather
                            different sort. Poor people had techniques for partial reweaving and
                            patching worn clothing. Further, as I already mentioned, the practice
                            was to progressively dye clothing in darker colours as it aged. The
                            ultimate fate of cloth was either to be stripped and rewoven or used
                            in the latrine. The monks recycled used latrine clothes for making
                            kessa. These were pieced together. It sounds to me like Noma is
                            trying to find a parallel with the European middle ages. The only way
                            that I can see low class people piecing together cloth is if they
                            were somehow obtaining cast offs from new bolts which were not large
                            enough to make anything out of.
                            >Speaking of which, there's a positively hideous dofuku in Noma
                            >dating from about 1560 that belonged to Uesugi Kenshin that makes the
                            >ball player on the screen painting look positively conservative. It
                            >almost looks like a crazy quilt only it's kosode shaped. ;->
                            Japanese ideas of stylish clothing, especially clothing worn by
                            yournger Japanese, is not known for being subdued.
                            >Say, that reminds me, there's a scene in the film "Ugetsu" in which
                            >the potter visits a kosode shop and imagines making enough of a profit
                            >to dress his wife in something beautiful. Filmed in black and white,
                            >the sequence is so stunningly filmed, my friend and I were sighing
                            >over the garments on display. (This film needs to be released on DVD!)
                            It's really famous. Criterion will probably bring it out if you wait
                            long enough.
                            Currently, you can buy it on VHS in the United States, but you can
                            apparently only buy used copies in Japan. Maybe they will be
                            bringning out a DVD fairly soon. One can always hope.
                            --

                            Your Humble Servant
                            Solveig Throndardottir
                            Amateur Scholar

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                          • Jennifer Kobayashi
                            ... FWIW: Liddell, Jill,_The Story of Kimono_,E P Dutton, NY,NY, 1989, ISBN 0-525-24574-X p.97 picture caption 90. Dofuku owned by Uesugi Kenshin Seventeen
                            Message 13 of 30 , Jun 6, 2005
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                              --- makiwara_no_yetsuko
                              <makiwara_no_yetsuko@...> wrote:


                              > Speaking of which, there's a positively
                              > hideous dofuku in Noma
                              > dating from about 1560 that belonged to Uesugi
                              > Kenshin that makes the
                              > ball player on the screen painting look positively
                              > conservative. It
                              > almost looks like a crazy quilt only it's kosode
                              > shaped. ;->
                              >

                              FWIW:

                              Liddell, Jill,_The Story of Kimono_,E P Dutton, NY,NY,
                              1989, ISBN 0-525-24574-X p.97 picture caption 90.

                              Dofuku owned by Uesugi Kenshin

                              Seventeen different kinds of costly Chinese brocades
                              make up this patchwork coat that is said to have been
                              given to a famous general by Nobunaga. It was the
                              custom at the time of Momoyama to present to a man a
                              patched garment made from pieces of cloth donated by
                              his friends...

                              Appears to be done in strips of crazy quilting. FWIW

                              Ki no Izumi




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                            • Solveig
                              Noble Mkiwara. Greetings from Solveig! I rather enjoyed looking at your web site. You do include a nummber of examples of pieced garments from the Costume
                              Message 14 of 30 , Jun 6, 2005
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                                Noble Mkiwara.

                                Greetings from Solveig! I rather enjoyed looking at your web site.
                                You do include a nummber of examples of pieced garments from the
                                Costume Museum. However, I do think suspect the import of the piecing
                                in this garment is rather different from that being claimed that it
                                was in imitation of the poor. The fabric in several of the pictures
                                is from only two patterns and is arranged in a regular checkerboard.
                                While this may have arisen indigenously, it is also possible that it
                                is the result of European influence. Regardless, the overall effect
                                is to make the garments rather more flashy.

                                As for Uesugi Kenshin and his famous dofuku. He has been cited here
                                before. What has not been offered is evidence that what was done was
                                at all normative. I would actually suspect the opposite. Here is why.
                                The normal order of things in medieval and modern Japan is for the
                                lord to give clothing or in pre-Meiji times cloth in livery colours
                                to the vassal. If you are interested in a cinematic presentation of
                                this practice, you should note the end of Inagaki's Samurai I.
                                However, this is not merely a cinematic invention. A number of years
                                ago we were studying the life of Japanese map maker in Classical
                                Japanese, and one of the things that came up was the cloth allowance
                                he received each new year.

                                just looked up "Doufuku" and its essential character explains a lot
                                including the patchwork nature of the garment. The "Doufuku"
                                originated in a long robe worn by Buddhist monks. Thus, like the
                                kessa, it was originally a patchwork affair. The original intent was
                                a humble garmennt expressing resignation from the world. Rich
                                Buddhist priests converted the doufuku and the kessa into more
                                luxurious garments by using NEW brocades and similar fabrics instead
                                of the traditional rags. The result was that the lords of major
                                temples would have luxurious garments. There is a fair amount of
                                literature in medieval Japan criticizing Buddhist priests who covet
                                luxurious robes.

                                There was some emulation of the dofuku among the nobilityas early as
                                the Heian period. The famous patchword doufuku was most likely
                                presented to Uesugi Kenshin when he took the tonsure. Kenshin is an
                                on'yomi (Chinese style) Houmyou (name in religion). Basically,
                                Kenshin's vassals were competing for his favour when Kenshin became a
                                lay monk by making donations for doufuku.
                                --

                                Your Humble Servant
                                Solveig Throndardottir
                                Amateur Scholar

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                              • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                                ... Actually, I think there is a communication issue here: doufuku = Way + Clothes = A robe for a monk. doufuku = Body + Clothes = A jacket used as a
                                Message 15 of 30 , Jun 6, 2005
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                                  On 6/6/05, Solveig <nostrand@...> wrote:

                                  > There was some emulation of the dofuku among the nobilityas early as
                                  > the Heian period. The famous patchword doufuku was most likely
                                  > presented to Uesugi Kenshin when he took the tonsure. Kenshin is an
                                  > on'yomi (Chinese style) Houmyou (name in religion). Basically,
                                  > Kenshin's vassals were competing for his favour when Kenshin became a
                                  > lay monk by making donations for doufuku.

                                  Actually, I think there is a communication issue here:

                                  doufuku = 'Way' + 'Clothes' => A robe for a monk.
                                  doufuku = 'Body' + "Clothes'=> A jacket used as a leisure garment
                                  since at least the Muromachi period, similar in some ways to a haori.

                                  I recommend 'doufuku' for the religious garment and 'doubuku' for the
                                  secular leisure garment.

                                  I'm not sure if it is the one Makiwara-dono is indicating, but there
                                  is a very nice doubuku that I recall being made of patches of rich and
                                  expensive fabrics. Possibly a very expensive and ostentatious view of
                                  'wabi and sabi'. Regardless, the one I saw was obviously a secular
                                  leisure garment.

                                  Ogami-gimi has a wonderful version that I saw--absolutely gorgeous!

                                  -Ii
                                • Solveig
                                  Ii Dono! Greetings from Solveig! My source states that the secular garment is derived from the sectarian garment. I thought the question was partly one of
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Jun 6, 2005
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                                    Ii Dono!

                                    Greetings from Solveig! My source states that the secular garment is
                                    derived from the sectarian garment. I thought the question was partly
                                    one of origin of the garment.
                                    --

                                    Your Humble Servant
                                    Solveig Throndardottir
                                    Amateur Scholar

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                                  • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                                    ... Might I ask your source? My understanding of the secular dobuku is that it was a merchant s coat that evolved into a leisure garment for the upper class
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Jun 7, 2005
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                                      On 6/6/05, Solveig <nostrand@...> wrote:
                                      > Ii Dono!
                                      >
                                      > Greetings from Solveig! My source states that the secular garment is
                                      > derived from the sectarian garment. I thought the question was partly
                                      > one of origin of the garment.

                                      Might I ask your source?

                                      My understanding of the secular dobuku is that it was a merchant's
                                      coat that evolved into a leisure garment for the upper class (probably
                                      because wealthy merchants were able to make them look so fabu, and
                                      daimyo got jealous ;) ).

                                      The clerical dofuku, however, appears to me to have more of an origin
                                      in the clerical robes, such as the kyutai or soken, with which it
                                      seems to hold much more in common, such as the open sleeves, and
                                      pleated skirt.

                                      I'll have to see if I still have the costuming dictionary reference I
                                      found on this at one point, as that might clarify some of it.


                                      -Ii
                                    • Solveig
                                      Ii dono! Greetings from Solveig! I admit to a bit of lazyness in looking up this one. I simply looked it up in Frederic s Encylopdia of Japan published by
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Jun 7, 2005
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                                        Ii dono!

                                        Greetings from Solveig! I admit to a bit of lazyness in looking up
                                        this one. I simply looked it up in Frederic's Encylopdia of Japan
                                        published by Harvard/Belknap Press.
                                        Once I found the entry in Frederic, I didn't bother to go on to my
                                        collection of kogojiten. I can do that.

                                        >My understanding of the secular dobuku is that it was a merchant's
                                        >coat that evolved into a leisure garment for the upper class (probably
                                        >because wealthy merchants were able to make them look so fabu, and
                                        >daimyo got jealous ;) ).

                                        Frederic pretty much points things in the downward direction which is
                                        the general trend in Japan. There are, of course, examples of things
                                        which moved upward. Noh Originated as a theatre for the Buke, but has
                                        anticedents in folk theatre. The wabi sabi tea ceremony of Sen no
                                        Rikyuu was born through the intneraction of the buke and the merchant
                                        class. The sencha ceremony originated with the merchant class. People
                                        of higher rank practicing these arts are practicing an art form with
                                        roots in lower classes. Even so, tea came over with Buddhist
                                        missionaries.

                                        >The clerical dofuku, however, appears to me to have more of an origin
                                        >in the clerical robes, such as the kyutai or soken, with which it
                                        >seems to hold much more in common, such as the open sleeves, and
                                        >pleated skirt.

                                        I think that Frederic is arguing that the patchwork motif originated
                                        with the clerical doufuku which makes a good deal of sense.
                                        --

                                        Your Humble Servant
                                        Solveig Throndardottir
                                        Amateur Scholar

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