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Re: Opinion on pattern

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  • Deanna
    ... Thank you very much! Right now he s just beginning work on a japanese persona, so I m not sure he s picked an exact period yet. For now, whatever fits the
    Message 1 of 30 , Jun 1, 2005
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      > Greetings from Solveig! I salute you for your dilligent efforts! What
      > period is your husband from?

      Thank you very much! Right now he's just beginning work on a japanese
      persona, so I'm not sure he's picked an exact period yet. For now,
      whatever fits the garb he likes I think. *chuckles*

      I would generally recommend that you
      > loose the bird and put in more flowers! For much of period, kamon
      > pokadots were derigure for the stylish bushi. If you want to put the
      > bird on something, please put it on a separate garment such as a
      > jinbaori. The other option is to make a checkerboard design of
      > alternating kamon. This is rather more ambitious than even what you
      > had in mind, so I would recommend that you go with a single design on
      > each garment at least for now.

      Fair enough, I was coming across more of that in my searching than
      anything else. Is it absolutely out of the question though, or just
      not often done?

      >Finally, the depiction of the bird. I
      > salute you for presenting the bird's back as this agrees with
      > Japanese practice. I am a bit curious as to where you are getting the
      > descending design. A lot of classical bird kamon sort of wrap the
      > birds wings into a circle or otherwise apsire to squareness.

      The bird design is something out of my own head really. He wanted to
      incorporate the crane into the garb, and I did some browsing and
      played around with it. I thought the wings outspread over the
      shoulders would look good, and I've seen a design like it elsewhere
      (not necc. period sources mind you), including similar on his tsuba.
      I had another design I made with two smaller standing crane, wings
      outstreached, facing each other. He liked the first better though.

      Please bear with me, as this is my first real attempt at more
      intricate Japanese garb (I made simple kosode and hakama for a friend
      last year), and though I'm familiar with the garments, I'm not
      familiar with the decoration of them as much.

      Would there be any good way to incorporate the crane into the design?

      Thank you again!
      ~Deanna
    • makiwara_no_yetsuko
      ... I will check my books when I get home, but I don t think I ve seen any birds as a clothing motif in period. M.
      Message 2 of 30 , Jun 1, 2005
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        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Deanna" <shad0wdr3am@y...> wrote:
        > Would there be any good way to incorporate the crane into the design?

        I will check my books when I get home, but I don't think I've seen any
        birds as a clothing motif in period.

        M.
      • Deanna
        I did a little more poking around, and came up with this link: http://www3.kyohaku.go.jp/knm/eng/detail.php?menu=00&page=3&no=0000005890&recno=51&hit=101
        Message 3 of 30 , Jun 1, 2005
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          I did a little more poking around, and came up with this link:
          http://www3.kyohaku.go.jp/knm/eng/detail.php?menu=00&page=3&no=0000005890&recno=51&hit=101
          Granted it's Chinese brocade, but it's 15th century (and it even has
          the decending crane). Would trade allow for it? And then, would it be
          possible to incorporate them in a more simpistic design, or would it
          more likely have been as complex as seen in that piece of cloth?
          Just tossing out some ideas in hopes to make it work, even if it needs
          major adjusting.. If not.. Ah well, back to the drawing board!
          Thanks again for the help!
          ~Deanna
        • makiwara_no_yetsuko
          ... http://www3.kyohaku.go.jp/knm/eng/detail.php?menu=00&page=3&no=0000005890&recno=51&hit=101 ... How wealthy are you? ;- Kinran brocades are what surihaku
          Message 4 of 30 , Jun 1, 2005
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            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Deanna" <shad0wdr3am@y...> wrote:
            > I did a little more poking around, and came up with this link:
            >
            http://www3.kyohaku.go.jp/knm/eng/detail.php?menu=00&page=3&no=0000005890&recno=51&hit=101
            > Granted it's Chinese brocade, but it's 15th century (and it even has
            > the decending crane). Would trade allow for it?

            How wealthy are you? ;-> Kinran brocades are what surihaku (gold leaf
            glued to silk) is designed to fake. Thanks for posting the link, I
            hadn't seen it before.

            That having been said, I can't find any "critters" as design motifs in
            any of the extant period Japanese garments I have in my books, except
            for butterflies. Plants, flowers, and geometric shapes are much more
            common.

            M.
          • Deanna
            ... You re welcome. It s actually your site that lead me to the search in the first place, so thank you as well. ;) Actually, it s your site that got me on
            Message 5 of 30 , Jun 2, 2005
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              > How wealthy are you? ;-> Kinran brocades are what surihaku (gold leaf
              > glued to silk) is designed to fake. Thanks for posting the link, I
              > hadn't seen it before.

              You're welcome. It's actually your site that lead me to the search in
              the first place, so thank you as well. ;) Actually, it's your site
              that got me on this whole wild idea in the first place.. I THINK
              that's another thank you. We'll see when it all comes together. ;)

              My persona could possibly afford it.. His, I'm not sure yet, he's
              still in the process of figuring it all out. I'm just the garb lady
              and the one who pokes him to decide what he wants.

              > That having been said, I can't find any "critters" as design motifs in
              > any of the extant period Japanese garments I have in my books, except
              > for butterflies. Plants, flowers, and geometric shapes are much more
              > common.

              Alrightie, back to the drawing board it is then. He liked that one so
              much I might make it for when he's not as worried about authenticity..
              But for the majority of the time, we'll come up with something that
              does it right.

              Thanks again for the help, (stop trying to be sensei, indeed..
              harumph) it's really appreciated.
              When I attended SCA events with my father as a teen, I wasn't so
              worried about authenticity, just that I was reasonably passable, and
              that I had fun.. As I'm getting back to it, a few years later, and
              bringing along my huband, and his friend, I have more of a drive to do
              things RIGHT. If it weren't for people like you, Effingham, and all
              the others that contribute the knowledge they've gathered for those
              who seek it, I'd be up a creek right now. Or at least having a MUCH
              harder time doing things right. My hat is off to you all. Thank you.

              ~Deanna
            • Deanna
              ... You re welcome. It s actually your site that lead me to the search in the first place, so thank you as well. ;) Actually, it s your site that got me on
              Message 6 of 30 , Jun 2, 2005
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                > How wealthy are you? ;-> Kinran brocades are what surihaku (gold leaf
                > glued to silk) is designed to fake. Thanks for posting the link, I
                > hadn't seen it before.

                You're welcome. It's actually your site that lead me to the search in
                the first place, so thank you as well. ;) Actually, it's your site
                that got me on this whole wild idea in the first place.. I THINK
                that's another thank you. We'll see when it all comes together. ;)

                My persona could possibly afford it.. His, I'm not sure yet, he's
                still in the process of figuring it all out. I'm just the garb lady
                and the one who pokes him to decide what he wants.

                > That having been said, I can't find any "critters" as design motifs in
                > any of the extant period Japanese garments I have in my books, except
                > for butterflies. Plants, flowers, and geometric shapes are much more
                > common.

                Alrightie, back to the drawing board it is then. He liked that one so
                much I might make it for when he's not as worried about authenticity..
                But for the majority of the time, we'll come up with something that
                does it right.

                Thanks again for the help, (stop trying to be sensei, indeed..
                harumph) it's really appreciated.
                When I attended SCA events with my father as a teen, I wasn't so
                worried about authenticity, just that I was reasonably passable, and
                that I had fun.. As I'm getting back to it, a few years later, and
                bringing along my huband, and his friend, I have more of a drive to do
                things RIGHT. If it weren't for people like you, Effingham, and all
                the others that contribute the knowledge they've gathered for those
                who seek it, I'd be up a creek right now. Or at least having a MUCH
                harder time doing things right. My hat is off to you all. Thank you.

                ~Deanna
              • makiwara_no_yetsuko
                ... Or not. I m notorious for going, Damn you, So-and-So, now I m going to HAVE to make this widget and it s all your fault! ;- ... Listen, YOU found a
                Message 7 of 30 , Jun 2, 2005
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                  --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Deanna" <shad0wdr3am@y...> wrote:
                  > Actually, it's your site
                  > that got me on this whole wild idea in the first place.. I THINK
                  > that's another thank you. We'll see when it all comes together.
                  Or not. I'm notorious for going, "Damn you, So-and-So, now I'm going
                  to HAVE to make this widget and it's all your fault!" ;->

                  > Alrightie, back to the drawing board it is then. He liked that one so
                  > much I might make it for when he's not as worried about authenticity..
                  > But for the majority of the time, we'll come up with something that
                  > does it right.
                  Listen, YOU found a period kinran brocade from China with cranes on
                  it! If you can justify that he would be able to afford such a rich
                  garment - or even a surihaku fake of such - you can legitimately
                  imitate that design. The Momoyama period (late 16th century) saw a lot
                  of extemely ornate, flashy garments and something like that kinran
                  would make awesome court clothing.

                  I'm so glad my web articles are proving useful. Thank YOU. You taught
                  me something new yesterday. ;->

                  M.
                • Deanna
                  ... Well yes, it s partially that too. *grins* Just another thing to get in over my head with. But hey, it s fun, and I m learning something! So it works. ;)
                  Message 8 of 30 , Jun 2, 2005
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                    > Or not. I'm notorious for going, "Damn you, So-and-So, now I'm going
                    > to HAVE to make this widget and it's all your fault!" ;->

                    Well yes, it's partially that too. *grins* Just another thing to get
                    in over my head with. But hey, it's fun, and I'm learning something!
                    So it works. ;)


                    > Listen, YOU found a period kinran brocade from China with cranes on
                    > it! If you can justify that he would be able to afford such a rich
                    > garment - or even a surihaku fake of such - you can legitimately
                    > imitate that design. The Momoyama period (late 16th century) saw a lot
                    > of extemely ornate, flashy garments and something like that kinran
                    > would make awesome court clothing.

                    *laughs* Ok.. Well, after a little discussion with him, he thinks he
                    could afford it. (and besides, if not, I'll give it to him as a gift.
                    ;) ) I'd be doing a surihaku fake for sure, probably in silver. Do you
                    have any suggestions as to how the design would work in best though?
                    I'm guessing that the single crane wouldn't be quite right, as I've
                    not really come across much with just the one bold design on the back
                    (but as I mentioned, I'm just starting this search), and that's
                    certainly not what the kinran looks like. So, lose the reeds, shrink
                    the bird, and repeat it?
                    *goes off to sketch some more*

                    >
                    > I'm so glad my web articles are proving useful. Thank YOU. You taught
                    > me something new yesterday. ;->

                    Glad to be of service. ;)

                    ~Deanna
                  • Solveig
                    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... I think that it is in the category of something that I do not recall ever seeing. Basically, I urge you to replicate
                    Message 9 of 30 , Jun 2, 2005
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                      Noble Cousin!

                      Greetings from Solveig!
                      >Fair enough, I was coming across more of that in my searching than
                      >anything else. Is it absolutely out of the question though, or just
                      >not often done?
                      I think that it is in the category of something that I do not recall
                      ever seeing. Basically, I urge you to replicate the more common place
                      until your research shows up something which is more striking.

                      >The bird design is something out of my own head really. He wanted to
                      >incorporate the crane into the garb, and I did some browsing and
                      >played around with it.

                      Cranes are great symbols. They are sort of one of the symbols for
                      longevity. However, there really are canonical depictions of the
                      things. I would urge you to go for one of those. Again, a well
                      dressed gentleman wears much more than a single kosode. He can wear
                      quite a few other things as well. I especially suggested the jinbaori
                      as I recall seeing a picture of a mounted bushi where the kamon on
                      his jinbaori was different from the kamon on his kosode. One of the
                      patterns probably belonged to him and the other to his lord. Japanese
                      pretty much did not combine "charges" in their designs.

                      >I thought the wings outspread over the shoulders would look good,
                      >and I've seen a design like it elsewhere

                      Oh. It WAS attractive. However, what I think you are remembering is a
                      simple horizontal bar pattern which you sometimes see on kasode and
                      haori. These are essentially bolt width bars and are not p
                      ictographic.

                      >Please bear with me, as this is my first real attempt at more
                      >intricate Japanese garb (I made simple kosode and hakama for a friend
                      >last year), and though I'm familiar with the garments, I'm not
                      >familiar with the decoration of them as much.

                      And, I recall saying that I think that you are doing marvelously.
                      However, since you asked for commentary, I thought I would point out
                      how you might do even better.
                      --

                      Your Humble Servant
                      Solveig Throndardottir
                      Amateur Scholar

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                    • Solveig
                      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Nice borcade. ... Yes, it would show up in Japan, however not in the way suggested. Brocade was used in variety of
                      Message 10 of 30 , Jun 2, 2005
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                        Noble Cousin!

                        Greetings from Solveig!
                        >http://www3.kyohaku.go.jp/knm/eng/detail.php?menu=00&page=3&no=0000005890&recno=51&hit=101
                        Nice borcade.
                        >Granted it's Chinese brocade, but it's 15th century (and it even has
                        >the decending crane). Would trade allow for it?
                        Yes, it would show up in Japan, however not in the way suggested.
                        Brocade was used in variety of ways such as pouches for tea
                        containers. During the Tokugawa period, we can find borcade obi. You
                        might even see it used for linings. There are a few other places that
                        you may encounter imported Chinese patterns. However, you should not
                        expect them in places where you would find kamon. That is sort of
                        like replacing the arms of the UK with a piece of Persian carpet
                        pattern on the doors of the Queen's coach. It just isn't done.
                        --

                        Your Humble Servant
                        Solveig Throndardottir
                        Amateur Scholar

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                      • makiwara_no_yetsuko
                        ... Remember, you re trying to fake a brocade, so a repeated pattern motif would do that. ... I liked the single crane, but it s not the sort of thing one sees
                        Message 11 of 30 , Jun 2, 2005
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                          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Deanna" <shad0wdr3am@y...> wrote:
                          > *laughs* Ok.. Well, after a little discussion with him, he thinks he
                          > could afford it. (and besides, if not, I'll give it to him as a gift.
                          > ;) ) I'd be doing a surihaku fake for sure, probably in silver. Do you
                          > have any suggestions as to how the design would work in best though?

                          Remember, you're trying to fake a brocade, so a repeated pattern motif
                          would do that.

                          > I'm guessing that the single crane wouldn't be quite right, as I've
                          > not really come across much with just the one bold design on the back.

                          I liked the single crane, but it's not the sort of thing one sees in
                          pre 1600 garments.

                          Other things that you might have fun with - a pieced garment using
                          alternating blocks of color! If you recall Solveig-hime's recent post
                          about recycling garment fabric, it's not only period appropriate, but
                          you can get some interesting results. There's a surihaku kosode in one
                          of my books that's made of alternating panels of red and white silk
                          with a floral motif stencilled over it. It's a very period thing to
                          do and I'm going to have to try it at some point. (Eep. Not ANOTHER
                          project!)

                          M.
                        • Solveig
                          Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! While there were various garments made from salvaged fabric, I do not believe that the surihaku kosode is one of them.
                          Message 12 of 30 , Jun 2, 2005
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                            Noble Cousins!

                            Greetings from Solveig! While there were various garments made from
                            salvaged fabric, I do not believe that the "surihaku kosode" is one
                            of them. The reason for this is that the blocks systematically match.
                            While I do believe that kamon originated in Chinese brocade patterns,
                            I do not believe that brocade was the only way in which they were
                            applied in period. Rather, I beleive that they were often printed and
                            similarly produced. There is patterned cloth in premodern Japan which
                            is definitely not brocade. For example the interconnected blue and
                            white arrow fletching pattern which is rather old. I'm pretty sure
                            that it is not brocade. Another rather radical pattern is produced by
                            sumi on water. It poduces a black swirled pattern.
                            --

                            Your Humble Servant
                            Solveig Throndardottir
                            Amateur Scholar

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                          • makiwara_no_yetsuko
                            ... I m looking at Money Hickman s Japan s Golden Age: Momoyama. Two large patches of red and white plain weave silk with gold foil designs of branches of
                            Message 13 of 30 , Jun 2, 2005
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                              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig <nostrand@a...> wrote:
                              > Greetings from Solveig! While there were various garments made from
                              > salvaged fabric, I do not believe that the "surihaku kosode" is one
                              > of them. The reason for this is that the blocks systematically match.

                              I'm looking at Money Hickman's "Japan's Golden Age: Momoyama." "Two
                              large patches of red and white plain weave silk with gold foil designs
                              of branches of weeping cherry extend from the shoulders to just above
                              the waist. Below these, five smaller patches are sttched together at
                              the center of the back." [That should be ten - back view photo shows
                              red left sleeve, white left top back, red right top back, white right
                              sleeve, with five alternating patches of narrower width below on each
                              side of the back seam.] It goes on to say that "The uneven size of the
                              red and white blocks as well as the difference in style, scale and
                              arrangement of the floral sprays indicates that this robe was pieced
                              together from parts of two different garments."

                              Chapter 5 of Seiroku Noma's "Japanese Costume and Textile Arts"
                              discusses pieced garments. Presumably, the necessity of recycling old
                              clothes into new for the lower classes inspired imitations in more
                              luxurious garments.

                              > While I do believe that kamon originated in Chinese brocade patterns,
                              > I do not believe that brocade was the only way in which they were
                              > applied in period. Rather, I beleive that they were often printed and
                              > similarly produced.
                              Resist dyeing too.

                              > There is patterned cloth in premodern Japan which
                              > is definitely not brocade.
                              Pictorial evidence from period shows decorated fabric being worn even
                              by the humblest classes. Stripes, plaids, printed motifs, resist or
                              tie-dye techniques....

                              For example the interconnected blue and
                              > white arrow fletching pattern which is rather old. I'm pretty sure
                              > that it is not brocade.
                              Like this stuff? ;->
                              http://www.ichiroya.com/sp/list.php?pg=0&spid=S3f8979c610f38

                              M.






                              Another rather radical pattern is produced by
                              > sumi on water. It poduces a black swirled pattern.
                              > --
                              >
                              > Your Humble Servant
                              > Solveig Throndardottir
                              > Amateur Scholar
                              >
                              >
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                              CoS, Fleur |
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                              |
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                              >
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                            • Deanna
                              Thank you both so much for all your help. The wheels are turning now, hopefully I ll get it to all fall into place, and come up with something my husband, who
                              Message 14 of 30 , Jun 3, 2005
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                                Thank you both so much for all your help. The wheels are turning now,
                                hopefully I'll get it to all fall into place, and come up with
                                something my husband, who likes things understated, will actually
                                wear. I'm starting to think, if I want to make the more interesting
                                and intricate clothing (like the pieced garments).. I'm going to have
                                to join the ranks and make myself a japanese persona, as my husband
                                and his friend just aren't daring enough. ;) These VERY celtic
                                features though, are a hindrance.

                                Anyway, I'll be working on reducing the crane design to something that
                                actually works well. I'm still trying to decide whether to place it on
                                a dobuku though, or try and figure out how to tie it in to the hakama
                                for the hitatare. And possibly, as suggested, I'll make a jinbaori if
                                he really wants the large crane (This picture here, I think is a good
                                example of what you were saying?
                                http://rhinohide.cx/tousando/yoriaku/img/figures/fig39.png). Also, the
                                obi idea is a great one, as I KNOW I can get him to wear more flashy
                                stuff if it's just a small piece. ;)

                                I made a trip to the library yesterday, and came home with Japan: A
                                History in Art, by Bradley Smith, The Kimono Mind, by Bernard
                                Rudofsky (no idea as far as content goes on that one, but it has some
                                good pictures, some dating back to the 1500's), and got two
                                inter-library loan requests out. (Kimono: Fashioning Culture by Liza
                                Dalby and Japanese Costume and Textile Arts by Seiroku Noma) So, I'll
                                have more to fuel the creative fires.

                                Again, thank you both for all the help. It is GREATLY appreciated.
                                It's nice to have people who know what they're doing, to use as a
                                sounding board for my crazy ideas. ;) I'll post up pictures of the
                                finished product, whenever I actually get there.

                                ~Deanna
                              • Solveig
                                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Touche! Point taken. Do your sources go on to say anything in particular about the context in which these garments
                                Message 15 of 30 , Jun 3, 2005
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                                  Noble Cousin!

                                  Greetings from Solveig!

                                  >Chapter 5 of Seiroku Noma's "Japanese Costume and Textile Arts"
                                  >discusses pieced garments. Presumably, the necessity of recycling old
                                  >clothes into new for the lower classes inspired imitations in more
                                  >luxurious garments.

                                  Touche! Point taken. Do your sources go on to say anything in
                                  particular about the context in which these garments appear? Formal
                                  portraits don't go in for this sort of garment all that much. I'm
                                  mostly used to looking at formal portraits to discover how people's
                                  names are written.

                                  Looking up "surihaku", Daijirin notes the use of gold and slver leaf.
                                  Daijirin also goes on to give a second meaning which refers
                                  specifically to a garment worn in the Noh theatre. While I am
                                  familiar with such garments in the Noh theatre, I have always thought
                                  of them as a bit peculiar as they do not appear to correspond all
                                  that well to garments worn by people outside of a stage play. That
                                  is, they are really hard to find in iconographic evidence such as
                                  formal portraits, street scenes, &c. I've wondered whether or not
                                  some of the stuff found in Noh garments is not an exageration for
                                  theatric effect.

                                  Having written all of the above, I thought I would try looking things
                                  up a bit. Always a good idea. Unfortuanately, I am sometimes rather
                                  lazy and want to chat more than I want to be scrupulously accurate.
                                  Regardless, Edo Fukushokushi (Costume History of the Edo Period) by
                                  Kanazawa Yasutaka has a rather extended article about "surihaku".
                                  Appparently, early technique used gold or silver leaf which appears
                                  to have been first glued to the fabric and then stitched in place.
                                  Later on, gold or silver thread replaced gold or silver leaf.
                                  Apparently some care was made to hide stitches. Early poetry appears
                                  to associate this sort of garment with women or rather specifically
                                  wives. Kanazawa also mentions use of these garments as special
                                  ceremonial robes. One more thing which you may find interesting is
                                  the evolution of all golden garments without any pattern at all. This
                                  is what I am getting from a brief thumbing through of the article. I
                                  really should read it more carefully.

                                  The overall pattern of the proposed garment is another issue. The
                                  overall aesthetic suggests that it would be from a later period,
                                  however the bird is placed over the spot where a kamon would most
                                  likely appear, but is not of the general form or dimmensions of a
                                  kamon. Further, while we see shoulder treatments in Edo period
                                  garments, these shoulder treatments (at least in the illustrations in
                                  Edo Fukushokushi) are of repeated patterns.
                                  --

                                  Your Humble Servant
                                  Solveig Throndardottir
                                  Amateur Scholar

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                                • Solveig
                                  Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Yes. although it is not the exact illustration I was recalling. This is a good thing as it shows that the practice
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Jun 3, 2005
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                                    Noble Cousin!

                                    Greetings from Solveig!
                                    >he really wants the large crane (This picture here, I think is a good
                                    >example of what you were saying?
                                    >http://rhinohide.cx/tousando/yoriaku/img/figures/fig39.png). Also, the
                                    >obi idea is a great one, as I KNOW I can get him to wear more flashy
                                    >stuff if it's just a small piece. ;)
                                    Yes. although it is not the exact illustration I was recalling. This
                                    is a good thing as it shows that the practice was somewhat common.
                                    You will notice quite a few features:
                                    1. The Jinbaori has exactly one kamon on it depicted exactly
                                    once. This kamon
                                    covers pretty much the entire back. It is really really BIG>
                                    2. You will notice that the jinbaori is lined with a regular
                                    pattern print.
                                    3. You will notice the interesting diamond piece at the top
                                    of the slit. This
                                    appears to be partially for structural purposes.
                                    4. The jinbaori has a print on its skirts. This is decidedly optional.
                                    --

                                    Your Humble Servant
                                    Solveig Throndardottir
                                    Amateur Scholar

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                                  • makiwara_no_yetsuko
                                    ... I see a lot of what appear to be pieced garments in genre paintings, you know, street scenes, festivals, and such. I ll look around and see if I can cite
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Jun 3, 2005
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                                      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig <nostrand@a...> wrote:
                                      > Touche! Point taken. Do your sources go on to say anything in
                                      > particular about the context in which these garments appear? Formal
                                      > portraits don't go in for this sort of garment all that much. I'm
                                      > mostly used to looking at formal portraits to discover how people's
                                      > names are written.
                                      I see a lot of what appear to be pieced garments in genre paintings,
                                      you know, street scenes, festivals, and such. I'll look around and see
                                      if I can cite examples or links when I get home. There's a series of
                                      paintings in the Tokyo National Museum listed as "genre paintings of
                                      the twelve months" which has people of various classes doing all sorts
                                      of things.

                                      > Looking up "surihaku", Daijirin notes the use of gold and slver leaf.
                                      > Daijirin also goes on to give a second meaning which refers
                                      > specifically to a garment worn in the Noh theatre. While I am
                                      > familiar with such garments in the Noh theatre, I have always thought
                                      > of them as a bit peculiar as they do not appear to correspond all
                                      > that well to garments worn by people outside of a stage play. That
                                      > is, they are really hard to find in iconographic evidence such as
                                      > formal portraits, street scenes, &c. I've wondered whether or not
                                      > some of the stuff found in Noh garments is not an exageration for
                                      > theatric effect.
                                      That's certainly possible. I have to wonder whether Noh costumes the
                                      period equivalent of Goodwill Store finds, castoffs or donations from
                                      wealthy patrons or the like? Metallic leaf is cheaper than kinran, but
                                      it's still not cheap!

                                      > Regardless, Edo Fukushokushi (Costume History of the Edo Period) by
                                      > Kanazawa Yasutaka has a rather extended article about "surihaku".
                                      Rats, why do I have the feeling this source is not in English? ;-<

                                      > The overall pattern of the proposed garment is another issue. The
                                      > overall aesthetic suggests that it would be from a later period,
                                      > however the bird is placed over the spot where a kamon would most
                                      > likely appear, but is not of the general form or dimmensions of a
                                      > kamon. Further, while we see shoulder treatments in Edo period
                                      > garments, these shoulder treatments (at least in the illustrations in
                                      > Edo Fukushokushi) are of repeated patterns.

                                      Have you seen the hem-and-shoulders stuff? Meant to be worn under
                                      other robes, there would be sections of embroidered decoration and the
                                      rest of the garment would be plain because nobody was going to see it.

                                      M.
                                    • Solveig
                                      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... What I mostly see in street scenes are printed garments. There are quite a lot of prints, woven patterns, and what
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Jun 3, 2005
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                                        Noble Cousin!

                                        Greetings from Solveig!
                                        >I see a lot of what appear to be pieced garments in genre paintings,
                                        >you know, street scenes, festivals, and such. I'll look around and see
                                        >if I can cite examples or links when I get home. There's a series of
                                        >paintings in the Tokyo National Museum listed as "genre paintings of
                                        >the twelve months" which has people of various classes doing all sorts
                                        >of things.
                                        What I mostly see in street scenes are printed garments. There are
                                        quite a lot of prints, woven patterns, and what naught that might
                                        appear to be piecework.
                                        >That's certainly possible. I have to wonder whether Noh costumes the
                                        >period equivalent of Goodwill Store finds, castoffs or donations from
                                        >wealthy patrons or the like? Metallic leaf is cheaper than kinran, but
                                        >it's still not cheap!
                                        Modern Noh costumes are of course extremely expensive.
                                        > > Regardless, Edo Fukushokushi (Costume History of the Edo Period) by
                                        >> Kanazawa Yasutaka has a rather extended article about "surihaku".
                                        >Rats, why do I have the feeling this source is not in English? ;-<
                                        Aside from the Japanese title? No, it isn't in English.
                                        >Have you seen the hem-and-shoulders stuff? Meant to be worn under
                                        >other robes, there would be sections of embroidered decoration and the
                                        >rest of the garment would be plain because nobody was going to see it.
                                        There are some fairly simple embroidery patterns which one sees quite
                                        a lot of. These are all large geometrically regular patterns. These
                                        patterns are either applied to the entire garment or sometimes to say
                                        the uppoer half. I think that, aside from decoration, these pattern
                                        produce a kind of multi-layer quilt which is a bit stronger than a
                                        single layer would have been. I have a fukusa size piece of
                                        embroidered material which was given to me. This is a double layer
                                        affair and is embroidered with a pattern of interlocking circles.
                                        --

                                        Your Humble Servant
                                        Solveig Throndardottir
                                        Amateur Scholar

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                                      • makiwara_no_yetsuko
                                        ... sorts of things. The example in Noma is from Kasuga Gongen Miracles Picture Scroll from the Imperial Household collection. In it there s a kneeling figure
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Jun 3, 2005
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                                          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "makiwara_no_yetsuko"
                                          <makiwara_no_yetsuko@y...> wrote:
                                          > I see a lot of what appear to be pieced garments in genre paintings,
                                          > you know, street scenes, festivals, and such. I'll look around and see
                                          > if I can cite examples or links when I get home. There's a series of
                                          > paintings in the Tokyo National Museum listed as "genre paintings of
                                          > the twelve months" which has people of various classes doing all
                                          sorts of things.

                                          The example in Noma is from Kasuga Gongen Miracles Picture Scroll from
                                          the Imperial Household collection. In it there's a kneeling figure
                                          wearing what is either a quartered kosode or kosode and hakama -
                                          lighter patterned fabric is paired with something darker with polka
                                          dots (it's a black and white photo).

                                          Here's a detail from the above mentioned Muromachi screen paintings
                                          (BTW, does anyone know anything about the game they're playing?) While
                                          some of the patterning in some of the outfits could be dyed or
                                          otherwise achieved, there's a figure in the center of this detail with
                                          one green sleeve and one red one - and it's not because he's halfway
                                          out of his top robe like some of the other figures. He also appears to
                                          be wearing a sword.
                                          http://tinyurl.com/aa7f6

                                          I also love this vignette from the same series. Evidently power
                                          shopping is period:
                                          http://tinyurl.com/7nbzt

                                          There are some great crowd scenes in a scroll from 1299 called the
                                          Ippen Shonin E-den. While I don't think we've got any piecework
                                          examples here, I'm going to post one of them because it's got great
                                          details like hats, fans, parasols, women wearing their kosode over
                                          their heads and so on.

                                          http://tinyurl.com/bpcqe

                                          M.
                                        • Solveig
                                          Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... You mean the fellow who appears to be wearing a particoloured kosode? There does appear to be stuff like this in the
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Jun 4, 2005
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                                            Noble Cousin!

                                            Greetings from Solveig!
                                            >Here's a detail from the above mentioned Muromachi screen paintings
                                            >(BTW, does anyone know anything about the game they're playing?) While
                                            >some of the patterning in some of the outfits could be dyed or
                                            >otherwise achieved, there's a figure in the center of this detail with
                                            > one green sleeve and one red one - and it's not because he's halfway
                                            >out of his top robe like some of the other figures. He also appears to
                                            >be wearing a sword.
                                            >http://tinyurl.com/aa7f6
                                            You mean the fellow who appears to be wearing a particoloured kosode?
                                            There does appear to be stuff like this in the clothing of youths
                                            during the Muromachi period. I don't believe that the intent is to
                                            reuse cloth so much as to make the garment as gaudy as possible.
                                            >I also love this vignette from the same series. Evidently power
                                            >shopping is period:
                                            >http://tinyurl.com/7nbzt
                                            Street scenes are interesting aren't they? Aside from the general
                                            amusument of "power shopping", you should notice the preprinted bolts
                                            of cloth on offer in the store. Incendentally, I would guess that the
                                            kosode being showed off is either : 1) an order being delivered, 2) a
                                            store sample, or 3) a used garment. The third option is the least
                                            likely of the three. Even today, kimono stores sew to order rather
                                            than stocking premade.
                                            --

                                            Your Humble Servant
                                            Solveig Throndardottir
                                            Amateur Scholar

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                                          • makiwara_no_yetsuko
                                            ... I thought I said in my previous post that Noma says that what probably began as fabric re-use in the lower classes caught on as a fashion trend. Speaking
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Jun 4, 2005
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                                              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig <nostrand@a...> wrote:
                                              > There does appear to be stuff like this in the clothing of youths
                                              > during the Muromachi period. I don't believe that the intent is to
                                              > reuse cloth so much as to make the garment as gaudy as possible.
                                              I thought I said in my previous post that Noma says that what probably
                                              began as fabric re-use in the lower classes caught on as a fashion
                                              trend. Speaking of which, there's a positively hideous dofuku in Noma
                                              dating from about 1560 that belonged to Uesugi Kenshin that makes the
                                              ball player on the screen painting look positively conservative. It
                                              almost looks like a crazy quilt only it's kosode shaped. ;->

                                              > Street scenes are interesting aren't they? Aside from the general
                                              > amusument of "power shopping", you should notice the preprinted
                                              > bolts of cloth on offer in the store.
                                              Oh yeah, it's excellent evidence of the kind of patterns that were
                                              available. The red and gold check and diamond patterns are wild,
                                              aren't they?

                                              > Incendentally, I would guess that the kosode being showed off is
                                              > either : 1) an order being delivered, 2) a store sample, or 3) a
                                              > used garment.
                                              Say, that reminds me, there's a scene in the film "Ugetsu" in which
                                              the potter visits a kosode shop and imagines making enough of a profit
                                              to dress his wife in something beautiful. Filmed in black and white,
                                              the sequence is so stunningly filmed, my friend and I were sighing
                                              over the garments on display. (This film needs to be released on DVD!)

                                              M.
                                            • Solveig
                                              Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Possible, but unlikely. Fashion tends to move downward throughout Japanese history. Also, cloth reuse tended to be of
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Jun 6, 2005
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                                                Noble Cousin!

                                                Greetings from Solveig!
                                                >I thought I said in my previous post that Noma says that what probably
                                                >began as fabric re-use in the lower classes caught on as a fashion
                                                >trend.
                                                Possible, but unlikely. Fashion tends to move downward throughout
                                                Japanese history. Also, cloth reuse tended to be of a rather
                                                different sort. Poor people had techniques for partial reweaving and
                                                patching worn clothing. Further, as I already mentioned, the practice
                                                was to progressively dye clothing in darker colours as it aged. The
                                                ultimate fate of cloth was either to be stripped and rewoven or used
                                                in the latrine. The monks recycled used latrine clothes for making
                                                kessa. These were pieced together. It sounds to me like Noma is
                                                trying to find a parallel with the European middle ages. The only way
                                                that I can see low class people piecing together cloth is if they
                                                were somehow obtaining cast offs from new bolts which were not large
                                                enough to make anything out of.
                                                >Speaking of which, there's a positively hideous dofuku in Noma
                                                >dating from about 1560 that belonged to Uesugi Kenshin that makes the
                                                >ball player on the screen painting look positively conservative. It
                                                >almost looks like a crazy quilt only it's kosode shaped. ;->
                                                Japanese ideas of stylish clothing, especially clothing worn by
                                                yournger Japanese, is not known for being subdued.
                                                >Say, that reminds me, there's a scene in the film "Ugetsu" in which
                                                >the potter visits a kosode shop and imagines making enough of a profit
                                                >to dress his wife in something beautiful. Filmed in black and white,
                                                >the sequence is so stunningly filmed, my friend and I were sighing
                                                >over the garments on display. (This film needs to be released on DVD!)
                                                It's really famous. Criterion will probably bring it out if you wait
                                                long enough.
                                                Currently, you can buy it on VHS in the United States, but you can
                                                apparently only buy used copies in Japan. Maybe they will be
                                                bringning out a DVD fairly soon. One can always hope.
                                                --

                                                Your Humble Servant
                                                Solveig Throndardottir
                                                Amateur Scholar

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                                              • Jennifer Kobayashi
                                                ... FWIW: Liddell, Jill,_The Story of Kimono_,E P Dutton, NY,NY, 1989, ISBN 0-525-24574-X p.97 picture caption 90. Dofuku owned by Uesugi Kenshin Seventeen
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Jun 6, 2005
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                                                  --- makiwara_no_yetsuko
                                                  <makiwara_no_yetsuko@...> wrote:


                                                  > Speaking of which, there's a positively
                                                  > hideous dofuku in Noma
                                                  > dating from about 1560 that belonged to Uesugi
                                                  > Kenshin that makes the
                                                  > ball player on the screen painting look positively
                                                  > conservative. It
                                                  > almost looks like a crazy quilt only it's kosode
                                                  > shaped. ;->
                                                  >

                                                  FWIW:

                                                  Liddell, Jill,_The Story of Kimono_,E P Dutton, NY,NY,
                                                  1989, ISBN 0-525-24574-X p.97 picture caption 90.

                                                  Dofuku owned by Uesugi Kenshin

                                                  Seventeen different kinds of costly Chinese brocades
                                                  make up this patchwork coat that is said to have been
                                                  given to a famous general by Nobunaga. It was the
                                                  custom at the time of Momoyama to present to a man a
                                                  patched garment made from pieces of cloth donated by
                                                  his friends...

                                                  Appears to be done in strips of crazy quilting. FWIW

                                                  Ki no Izumi




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                                                • Solveig
                                                  Noble Mkiwara. Greetings from Solveig! I rather enjoyed looking at your web site. You do include a nummber of examples of pieced garments from the Costume
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Jun 6, 2005
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                                                    Noble Mkiwara.

                                                    Greetings from Solveig! I rather enjoyed looking at your web site.
                                                    You do include a nummber of examples of pieced garments from the
                                                    Costume Museum. However, I do think suspect the import of the piecing
                                                    in this garment is rather different from that being claimed that it
                                                    was in imitation of the poor. The fabric in several of the pictures
                                                    is from only two patterns and is arranged in a regular checkerboard.
                                                    While this may have arisen indigenously, it is also possible that it
                                                    is the result of European influence. Regardless, the overall effect
                                                    is to make the garments rather more flashy.

                                                    As for Uesugi Kenshin and his famous dofuku. He has been cited here
                                                    before. What has not been offered is evidence that what was done was
                                                    at all normative. I would actually suspect the opposite. Here is why.
                                                    The normal order of things in medieval and modern Japan is for the
                                                    lord to give clothing or in pre-Meiji times cloth in livery colours
                                                    to the vassal. If you are interested in a cinematic presentation of
                                                    this practice, you should note the end of Inagaki's Samurai I.
                                                    However, this is not merely a cinematic invention. A number of years
                                                    ago we were studying the life of Japanese map maker in Classical
                                                    Japanese, and one of the things that came up was the cloth allowance
                                                    he received each new year.

                                                    just looked up "Doufuku" and its essential character explains a lot
                                                    including the patchwork nature of the garment. The "Doufuku"
                                                    originated in a long robe worn by Buddhist monks. Thus, like the
                                                    kessa, it was originally a patchwork affair. The original intent was
                                                    a humble garmennt expressing resignation from the world. Rich
                                                    Buddhist priests converted the doufuku and the kessa into more
                                                    luxurious garments by using NEW brocades and similar fabrics instead
                                                    of the traditional rags. The result was that the lords of major
                                                    temples would have luxurious garments. There is a fair amount of
                                                    literature in medieval Japan criticizing Buddhist priests who covet
                                                    luxurious robes.

                                                    There was some emulation of the dofuku among the nobilityas early as
                                                    the Heian period. The famous patchword doufuku was most likely
                                                    presented to Uesugi Kenshin when he took the tonsure. Kenshin is an
                                                    on'yomi (Chinese style) Houmyou (name in religion). Basically,
                                                    Kenshin's vassals were competing for his favour when Kenshin became a
                                                    lay monk by making donations for doufuku.
                                                    --

                                                    Your Humble Servant
                                                    Solveig Throndardottir
                                                    Amateur Scholar

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                                                  • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                                                    ... Actually, I think there is a communication issue here: doufuku = Way + Clothes = A robe for a monk. doufuku = Body + Clothes = A jacket used as a
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Jun 6, 2005
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                                                      On 6/6/05, Solveig <nostrand@...> wrote:

                                                      > There was some emulation of the dofuku among the nobilityas early as
                                                      > the Heian period. The famous patchword doufuku was most likely
                                                      > presented to Uesugi Kenshin when he took the tonsure. Kenshin is an
                                                      > on'yomi (Chinese style) Houmyou (name in religion). Basically,
                                                      > Kenshin's vassals were competing for his favour when Kenshin became a
                                                      > lay monk by making donations for doufuku.

                                                      Actually, I think there is a communication issue here:

                                                      doufuku = 'Way' + 'Clothes' => A robe for a monk.
                                                      doufuku = 'Body' + "Clothes'=> A jacket used as a leisure garment
                                                      since at least the Muromachi period, similar in some ways to a haori.

                                                      I recommend 'doufuku' for the religious garment and 'doubuku' for the
                                                      secular leisure garment.

                                                      I'm not sure if it is the one Makiwara-dono is indicating, but there
                                                      is a very nice doubuku that I recall being made of patches of rich and
                                                      expensive fabrics. Possibly a very expensive and ostentatious view of
                                                      'wabi and sabi'. Regardless, the one I saw was obviously a secular
                                                      leisure garment.

                                                      Ogami-gimi has a wonderful version that I saw--absolutely gorgeous!

                                                      -Ii
                                                    • Solveig
                                                      Ii Dono! Greetings from Solveig! My source states that the secular garment is derived from the sectarian garment. I thought the question was partly one of
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Jun 6, 2005
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                                                        Ii Dono!

                                                        Greetings from Solveig! My source states that the secular garment is
                                                        derived from the sectarian garment. I thought the question was partly
                                                        one of origin of the garment.
                                                        --

                                                        Your Humble Servant
                                                        Solveig Throndardottir
                                                        Amateur Scholar

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                                                      • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                                                        ... Might I ask your source? My understanding of the secular dobuku is that it was a merchant s coat that evolved into a leisure garment for the upper class
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Jun 7, 2005
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                                                          On 6/6/05, Solveig <nostrand@...> wrote:
                                                          > Ii Dono!
                                                          >
                                                          > Greetings from Solveig! My source states that the secular garment is
                                                          > derived from the sectarian garment. I thought the question was partly
                                                          > one of origin of the garment.

                                                          Might I ask your source?

                                                          My understanding of the secular dobuku is that it was a merchant's
                                                          coat that evolved into a leisure garment for the upper class (probably
                                                          because wealthy merchants were able to make them look so fabu, and
                                                          daimyo got jealous ;) ).

                                                          The clerical dofuku, however, appears to me to have more of an origin
                                                          in the clerical robes, such as the kyutai or soken, with which it
                                                          seems to hold much more in common, such as the open sleeves, and
                                                          pleated skirt.

                                                          I'll have to see if I still have the costuming dictionary reference I
                                                          found on this at one point, as that might clarify some of it.


                                                          -Ii
                                                        • Solveig
                                                          Ii dono! Greetings from Solveig! I admit to a bit of lazyness in looking up this one. I simply looked it up in Frederic s Encylopdia of Japan published by
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Jun 7, 2005
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                                                            Ii dono!

                                                            Greetings from Solveig! I admit to a bit of lazyness in looking up
                                                            this one. I simply looked it up in Frederic's Encylopdia of Japan
                                                            published by Harvard/Belknap Press.
                                                            Once I found the entry in Frederic, I didn't bother to go on to my
                                                            collection of kogojiten. I can do that.

                                                            >My understanding of the secular dobuku is that it was a merchant's
                                                            >coat that evolved into a leisure garment for the upper class (probably
                                                            >because wealthy merchants were able to make them look so fabu, and
                                                            >daimyo got jealous ;) ).

                                                            Frederic pretty much points things in the downward direction which is
                                                            the general trend in Japan. There are, of course, examples of things
                                                            which moved upward. Noh Originated as a theatre for the Buke, but has
                                                            anticedents in folk theatre. The wabi sabi tea ceremony of Sen no
                                                            Rikyuu was born through the intneraction of the buke and the merchant
                                                            class. The sencha ceremony originated with the merchant class. People
                                                            of higher rank practicing these arts are practicing an art form with
                                                            roots in lower classes. Even so, tea came over with Buddhist
                                                            missionaries.

                                                            >The clerical dofuku, however, appears to me to have more of an origin
                                                            >in the clerical robes, such as the kyutai or soken, with which it
                                                            >seems to hold much more in common, such as the open sleeves, and
                                                            >pleated skirt.

                                                            I think that Frederic is arguing that the patchwork motif originated
                                                            with the clerical doufuku which makes a good deal of sense.
                                                            --

                                                            Your Humble Servant
                                                            Solveig Throndardottir
                                                            Amateur Scholar

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                                                            | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                                            | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                                            | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
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