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  • Park McKellop
    Very true. While not a complete meritocracy, most of the people who deserve the recognition, get it. Alcyoneus Solveig wrote: One of the
    Message 1 of 26 , May 29, 2005
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      Very true. While not a complete meritocracy, most of the people who deserve the recognition, get it.

      Alcyoneus

      Solveig <nostrand@...> wrote:
      One of the things that I like most about the Society is that you can have a real and valuable part of it even if you are none of those things.
      --

      Your Humble Servant
      Solveig Throndardottir
      Amateur Scholar

      +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
      | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
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    • booknerd9
      ... Well, I think a foreign language is hard depending on how one sees things. Japanese grammar is very different from German. Actually, I did quite poorly
      Message 2 of 26 , May 29, 2005
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        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig <nostrand@a...> wrote:
        > Noble Cousin!
        >
        > Greetings from Solveig!
        > Japanese isn't HARD. French and German are HARD! I flunked both
        > French and German. I flunked German several times. If I can learn
        > even a little bit of Japanese, anybody can learn Japanese. However,
        > you really should not try to learn Japanese from animated cartoons
        > distributed shown on US television.
        >

        Well, I think a foreign language is hard depending on how one "sees" things. Japanese
        grammar is very different from German. Actually, I did quite poorly at Spanish but
        found Latin to be very easy, Japanese is somewhere in between. My roommate, on the
        other hand, found Japanese to be impossible but Spanish wasn't so bad.
        But this is because I like systems, and being able to see how each word "plunks" into
        the sentence, how each word conjugates, and so on. You're probably a "systems"
        person too, Solvieg-dono (and seing your work on the Japanese name book, a very
        "systems person" sort of pastime, I think you are). Some people are more "holistic"
        and see things a bit more "whole", being able to step away from a work and look at it.
        So, to each his own, but hopefully, I haven't discouraged anyone. (:
      • pennygirlandsea
        Noble Cousin! Many handed Kannon-sama sending forth lots of letters! BMOC, PhD, it s all the same in eternity. as if all the old humorous courage of the year
        Message 3 of 26 , May 29, 2005
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          Noble Cousin! Many handed Kannon-sama sending forth lots of letters!
          BMOC, PhD, it's all the same in eternity.

          as if all the old humorous courage of the year before has given away
          to a profound Japanese skepticism like that of a Samurai warrior in a
          fit of death without duty (surprising me in its abject gloomy fearful
          frown). i mean it was my first frightened realization of what to be
          Japanese really meant--To be Japanese and not believe in life any more
          and to be gloomy like Beethoven yet to be Japanese in gloom, the gloom
          of Basho behind it all, the huge thunderous scowl of Issa or of Shiki,
          kneeling in the frost with the head bowed like the bowed-head-oblivion
          of all the old horses of Japan long dust. what is keeping me is I know
          George will get better and live and teach the joyful truth and George
          knows that I know this, that's why he's playing the game with me, the
          magic game of glad freedom which is Zen or for that matter the
          Japanese soul ultimately means I say, "And someday I will go to Japan
          with you" I tell myself after we've made our last little wave because
          I've heard the supper bell ring and seen the other cancer patients
          rush for the chow line and knowing George's fantastic appetite is
          wrapped in that little frail body I dont wanta hang him up tho he
          nevertheless does one last trick: he throws a glass of water out the
          window in a big froosh of water I dont see him any more.

          Books, shmooks, the frog who never moves and thunders.

          aaahkiii


          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig <nostrand@a...> wrote:
          > Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig!
          >
          > >And of course in SCA it's not how the ancient times were but how "we
          > >wished they would be" so you have to adjust.
          >
          > Although I know that this particular description of the Society is
          > fairly popular, please please please do not promulgate it. This
          > particular formulation leads in the direction of fantasy not history.
          > The problem with fantasy quickly becomes: "Whose fantasy?" Perhaps
          > you are someone who is accustomed to being a group leader, a BMOC or
          > MWOC, part of the cultural elite, a tend setter, &c. I am not so
          > fortunate! One of the things that I like most about the Society is
          > that you can have a real and valuable part of it even if you are none
          > of those things.
          > --
          >
          > Your Humble Servant
          > Solveig Throndardottir
          > Amateur Scholar
          >
          > +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
          > | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
          > | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
          > | mailto:nostrand@a... | mailto:Solveig@d... |
          > +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
          > | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to the |
          > | trash by my email filters. |
          > +-------------------------------------------------------------------
          --------+
        • ekoogler1@comcast.net
          I have never worried too much about speaking Japanese, beyond trying to address folk correctly. One of my reasons is that I simply don t know Japanese. I
          Message 4 of 26 , May 30, 2005
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            I have never worried too much about speaking Japanese, beyond trying to address folk correctly. One of my reasons is that I simply don't know Japanese. I studied Chinese when working on my M.A. because I knew that most documents that I would be reading if I pursued getting a PhD. in Japanese Art History would be written in classical Chinese kanji. Secondly, I have had other things that I wanted to learn about and, as time is limited, I had to pick and choose what was important to me. So...I have concentrated on trying to convey my "Japanese-ness" by my actions and comportment. And it seems to have worked over the years. The first time I ever appeared at an event in European garb, no one recognized me! This from a rather stout person with reddish brown hair and freckles!!!

            I guess the story that comes to mind when talking about this is what happened at my third event. A rather pompous soul walked up to me and addressed me in modern Japanese using a modern honorific. I responded that I was unable to return more than his greeting as I didn't speak this modern language. He then informed me that he didn't understand how I could purport to have a Japanese persona without speaking the language. I told him that I was unable to determine what the form of the period language would have been...and wondered if he spoke Scots Gaelic! He turned on his heel in quite a huff and stalked off!

            Kiri






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • James Eckman
            ... Isn t it already to late? I don t know what to call a collection of people gathering together with persona from over a 1,000 year period other than a
            Message 5 of 26 , May 30, 2005
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              >
              >
              > From: Solveig <nostrand@...> Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig!
              >
              >>>And of course in SCA it's not how the ancient times were but how "we
              >>>wished they would be" so you have to adjust.
              >>
              >>
              >
              >Although I know that this particular description of the Society is
              >fairly popular, please please please do not promulgate it. This
              >particular formulation leads in the direction of fantasy not history.
              >
              >
              Isn't it already to late? I don't know what to call a collection of
              people gathering together with persona from over a 1,000 year period
              other than a fantasy. Hopefully nobody is infecting themselves with
              plague, letting their teeth rot or cultivating lice.

              >The problem with fantasy quickly becomes: "Whose fantasy?"
              >
              Hopefully one with a strong historical background.

              >Perhaps you are someone who is accustomed to being a group leader, a BMOC or
              >MWOC, part of the cultural elite, a tend setter, &c. I am not so
              >fortunate!
              >
              I'm not sure that being such a person is fortunate. I prefer the nerd
              life myself.

              >One of the things that I like most about the Society is
              >that you can have a real and valuable part of it even if you are none
              >of those things.
              >
              You mean there's no politics in the SCA ;) Hopefully it won't go the way
              of some of the local fairs, since there's not much money to be made, I
              pray that's the case.

              Jim Eckman
            • Solveig
              Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! ... This business about we wished they would be is NOT an inherent consequence of anachronism, otherwise every
              Message 6 of 26 , May 30, 2005
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                Noble Cousins!

                Greetings from Solveig!

                I wrote:
                > >Although I know that this particular description of the Society is
                >>fairly popular, please please please do not promulgate it. This
                > >particular formulation leads in the direction of fantasy not history.

                Another replied:
                >Isn't it already to late? I don't know what to call a collection of
                >people gathering together with persona from over a 1,000 year period
                >other than a fantasy. Hopefully nobody is infecting themselves with
                >plague, letting their teeth rot or cultivating lice.

                This business about "we wished they would be" is NOT an inherent
                consequence of anachronism, otherwise every history conference
                including Kalamazoo would be a fantasy event. Mixing different epocs
                and places does not require abandonment of good research. It cerntaly
                does not require descent into fantasy.

                > >One of the things that I like most about the Society is
                >>that you can have a real and valuable part of it even if you are none
                >>of those things.
                >>
                >You mean there's no politics in the SCA ;) Hopefully it won't go the way
                >of some of the local fairs, since there's not much money to be made, I
                >pray that's the case.

                No. There is pleanty of politics in the Society. I believe that the
                "Dream", "the we would like them to be", &c acts collectively as an
                arsenal for some of the nastiest most exclusionary politics in the
                Society. History is a game that we can all play. It is a game that
                anyone can get better at simply by applying themselves over time. The
                politics of the popular is another matter.
                --

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar

                +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to the |
                | trash by my email filters. |
                +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
              • makiwara_no_yetsuko
                She who is called Makiwara, having completed her journey safely, sends ... This person humbly suggests from personal experience that Akiko-hime stop traffic
                Message 7 of 26 , May 31, 2005
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                  She who is called Makiwara, having completed her journey safely, sends
                  belated greetings, and perhaps a few words of advice:

                  > Like how I relate as a Heian courtier with a roman senator
                  > or a big hairy stinky viking!
                  This person humbly suggests from personal experience that Akiko-hime
                  stop traffic with her exotic elegance, impress them with her erudition
                  and slay them with her exquisite courtesy. [Thou Shalt Be Classy.]

                  > I am trying to use a Japanese accent.
                  This person humbly begs Akiko-hime to consider not doing this. Unless
                  it is done really, REALLY well, one runs the risk of appearing
                  undignified and foolish, not to mention being potentially offensive.

                  > Or maybe try to change grammar?
                  One runs the risk, again, of appearing undignified and foolish. Yoda
                  can get away with it. He's a rubber puppet. As others have posted, it
                  is not necessary to speak (modern) Japanese as most of the people
                  we're interacting with speak (modern) English. Like a dash of wasabi,
                  a discreet seasoning of your everyday English with a Japanese word or
                  two (simple greetings, "please" and "thank you" and basic honorifics)
                  goes a long way in flavoring your social interactions without making
                  them incomprehensible.

                  > I just feel alone so if I stick out so much maybe just keep that up.
                  Japanese personae are pretty thin on the ground in my kingdom too. It
                  is what it is. The SCA's primary scope is pre 17th century Europe.
                  Those of us who portray non Europeans are considered "guests" from
                  foreign lands. And yes, sometimes we run up against people who believe
                  we don't belong here at all. That is THEIR problem.

                  It occurs to me that you might try thinking of yourself as an
                  ambassador. Your karma has placed you in the (historically
                  implausible) position of having to socialize with the namban. Think
                  about making the sort of impression that will foster fruitful
                  relations with these weird strangers, to the greater glory of the Emperor.

                  Hope this makes some sense to you, I admit I'm still a little jet lagged.

                  Makiwara






                  > (new confused and nothing to lose in sweaty eisenmarch ;)
                  > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Kita Jiru Toramassa <toramassa@g...>
                  > wrote:
                  > > Greetings, I also am of Northshield, the shire of Korsvag. I will not
                  > > claim to be an authority on anything, but I will be happy to be of
                  > > what assistance I can be. Perhaps the thing I can be of most
                  > > assistance with is making armor. I have made two sets now, first out
                  > > of steel and then plastic. There are however others on this group or
                  > > the web that have some good directions on making Japanese armor.
                  > > Hopefully these sites will help some:
                  > > http://www.nb.net/~kmeg/kaminari/Armor/Title.html
                  > > http://www.armourarchive.org/patterns/sendai_do_apocalypse/
                  > > http://www.rhinohide.cx/tousando/yoriaku/index.html
                  > > But most especially Mr. Bryant's site:
                  > > http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/
                  > >
                  > > On 5/25/05, J & C Cameron <cte71259@c...> wrote:
                  > > > Hello,
                  > > >
                  > > > I am known in the SCA as Lord Hawthorn Silverwolf. I have being
                  thinking of a Japanese persona for some time. i live in the Kingdom of
                  Northshield. So i thought why not give it a try. first thing i thing i
                  should go is make some suitable garb. then i will work on Armour. i am
                  currently a 13 century Celt so my Armour will change slowly as i am a
                  heavy fight and fight every chance i get. i just wanted to say hello
                  to the group.
                  > > >
                  > > > Blessings, Lord Hawthorn
                  > > >
                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --
                  > > "You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair.
                  Then I
                  > > thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the
                  terrible
                  > > things that happen to us come becuase we actually deserve them?
                  So, now I
                  > > take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the
                  universe."
                  > > -Marcus to Franklin in Babylon 5
                  > >
                  > > John Lyon
                  > > aka The Ugly Dragon
                  > > aka Kita Jiru Toramassa
                • Solveig
                  Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Please don t do this unless you are a talented comic like Hachirou dono. Even then, you should do it sparingly and
                  Message 8 of 26 , Jun 1, 2005
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                    Noble Cousin!

                    Greetings from Solveig!
                    > > I am trying to use a Japanese accent.
                    Please don't do this unless you are a talented comic like Hachirou
                    dono. Even then, you should do it sparingly and pretty much only when
                    "on stage". It is very unusual for someone's accent to sound funny to
                    themselves.

                    > > Or maybe try to change grammar?
                    I suppose you can do this in private if you are using this as a
                    technique for actually learning Japanese.

                    >As others have posted, it is not necessary to speak (modern)
                    >Japanese as most of the people we're interacting with speak (modern)
                    >English.

                    However, you CAN easily spice things up with English translations of
                    comon place Japanese expressions and speech patterns or even Japanese
                    stock phrases. You can learn to say: itakadakimasu, and
                    gochisousamadeshita, and stuff like that. A cheery Ohayougozaimasu or
                    Irashaimase or Okaerinasai when someone arrives. That sort of thing.

                    >It occurs to me that you might try thinking of yourself as an
                    >ambassador.

                    Actually, this is a good way to approach "ware ware" Japanse group
                    think. If you think of yourself as an amassador, you are likely to
                    adopt more authentically Japanese approaches to things.
                    --

                    Your Humble Servant
                    Solveig Throndardottir
                    Amateur Scholar

                    +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                    | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                    | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                    +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to the |
                    | trash by my email filters. |
                    +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  • pennygirlandsea
                    ... I am already undignified and foolish, but offensive I m not sure. Wasn t there a discussion already about offensive and Japanese persona? maybe actual
                    Message 9 of 26 , Jun 1, 2005
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                      Makiwara-hime, most laudibly instructive and discreet in manner:

                      > undignified and foolish, not to mention being potentially offensive.
                      I am already undignified and foolish, but offensive I'm not sure.
                      Wasn't there a discussion already about offensive and Japanese
                      persona? maybe actual Japanese person at an SCA even (super-rare
                      thing) he/she might be annoyed, but I don't see why whiteys should be
                      mad. as I said before I hear *bad* Scottish accents almost every
                      event.

                      > Hope this makes some sense to you, I admit I'm still a little jet lagged.

                      jet lagged??? what is this WITCHERY of which you speak??

                      ~*AkIkO*~
                      >
                      > > (new confused and nothing to lose in sweaty eisenmarch ;)
                      > > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Kita Jiru Toramassa <toramassa@g...>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > > Greetings, I also am of Northshield, the shire of Korsvag. I will not
                      > > > claim to be an authority on anything, but I will be happy to be of
                      > > > what assistance I can be. Perhaps the thing I can be of most
                      > > > assistance with is making armor. I have made two sets now, first out
                      > > > of steel and then plastic. There are however others on this group or
                      > > > the web that have some good directions on making Japanese armor.
                      > > > Hopefully these sites will help some:
                      > > > http://www.nb.net/~kmeg/kaminari/Armor/Title.html
                      > > > http://www.armourarchive.org/patterns/sendai_do_apocalypse/
                      > > > http://www.rhinohide.cx/tousando/yoriaku/index.html
                      > > > But most especially Mr. Bryant's site:
                      > > > http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/
                      > > >
                      > > > On 5/25/05, J & C Cameron <cte71259@c...> wrote:
                      > > > > Hello,
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I am known in the SCA as Lord Hawthorn Silverwolf. I have being
                      > thinking of a Japanese persona for some time. i live in the Kingdom of
                      > Northshield. So i thought why not give it a try. first thing i thing i
                      > should go is make some suitable garb. then i will work on Armour. i am
                      > currently a 13 century Celt so my Armour will change slowly as i am a
                      > heavy fight and fight every chance i get. i just wanted to say hello
                      > to the group.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Blessings, Lord Hawthorn
                      > > > >
                      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --
                      > > > "You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair.
                      > Then I
                      > > > thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the
                      > terrible
                      > > > things that happen to us come becuase we actually deserve them?
                      > So, now I
                      > > > take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the
                      > universe."
                      > > > -Marcus to Franklin in Babylon 5
                      > > >
                      > > > John Lyon
                      > > > aka The Ugly Dragon
                      > > > aka Kita Jiru Toramassa
                    • makiwara_no_yetsuko
                      ... My real life ancestors didn t sound like a freakin Lucky Charms commercial. This IS offensive - and I m not exactly the most politically correct person on
                      Message 10 of 26 , Jun 1, 2005
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                        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "pennygirlandsea"
                        <pennygirlandsea@y...> wrote:
                        > as I said before I hear *bad* Scottish accents almost every
                        > event.

                        My real life ancestors didn't sound like a freakin' Lucky Charms
                        commercial. This IS offensive - and I'm not exactly the most
                        politically correct person on the planet.

                        > jet lagged??? what is this WITCHERY of which you speak??
                        Er, I mean, I'm still a bit tired from a very long palanquin ride
                        along the Tokaido. ;->

                        M.
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