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  • J & C Cameron
    Hello, I am known in the SCA as Lord Hawthorn Silverwolf. I have being thinking of a Japanese persona for some time. i live in the Kingdom of Northshield. So i
    Message 1 of 26 , May 25, 2005
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      Hello,

      I am known in the SCA as Lord Hawthorn Silverwolf. I have being thinking of a Japanese persona for some time. i live in the Kingdom of Northshield. So i thought why not give it a try. first thing i thing i should go is make some suitable garb. then i will work on Armour. i am currently a 13 century Celt so my Armour will change slowly as i am a heavy fight and fight every chance i get. i just wanted to say hello to the group.

      Blessings, Lord Hawthorn

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Kita Jiru Toramassa
      Greetings, I also am of Northshield, the shire of Korsvag. I will not claim to be an authority on anything, but I will be happy to be of what assistance I can
      Message 2 of 26 , May 25, 2005
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        Greetings, I also am of Northshield, the shire of Korsvag. I will not
        claim to be an authority on anything, but I will be happy to be of
        what assistance I can be. Perhaps the thing I can be of most
        assistance with is making armor. I have made two sets now, first out
        of steel and then plastic. There are however others on this group or
        the web that have some good directions on making Japanese armor.
        Hopefully these sites will help some:
        http://www.nb.net/~kmeg/kaminari/Armor/Title.html
        http://www.armourarchive.org/patterns/sendai_do_apocalypse/
        http://www.rhinohide.cx/tousando/yoriaku/index.html
        But most especially Mr. Bryant's site:
        http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/

        On 5/25/05, J & C Cameron <cte71259@...> wrote:
        > Hello,
        >
        > I am known in the SCA as Lord Hawthorn Silverwolf. I have being thinking of a Japanese persona for some time. i live in the Kingdom of Northshield. So i thought why not give it a try. first thing i thing i should go is make some suitable garb. then i will work on Armour. i am currently a 13 century Celt so my Armour will change slowly as i am a heavy fight and fight every chance i get. i just wanted to say hello to the group.
        >
        > Blessings, Lord Hawthorn
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >


        --
        "You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I
        thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible
        things that happen to us come becuase we actually deserve them? So, now I
        take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe."
        -Marcus to Franklin in Babylon 5

        John Lyon
        aka The Ugly Dragon
        aka Kita Jiru Toramassa
      • makiwara_no_yetsuko
        Welcome! Be sure to check out the links and files posted at sca- jml@yahoogroups.com as there s lots of information on clothing, armor, etc. there to help
        Message 3 of 26 , May 26, 2005
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          Welcome!

          Be sure to check out the "links" and "files" posted at sca-
          jml@yahoogroups.com as there's lots of information on clothing, armor,
          etc. there to help get you started.

          Makiwara, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        • pennygirlandsea
          Deepest greetings of the Noble Rising Sun to you, Toramassadono: Think maybe i said this before but I am too newcomer and it s hard! ... characters in my shrie
          Message 4 of 26 , May 26, 2005
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            Deepest greetings of the Noble Rising Sun to you, Toramassadono:

            Think maybe i said this before but I am too newcomer and it's hard!
            :(. 'specially cuz there no other (well very few OK) Japanese
            characters in my shrie (Eisenmarch). So it's hard to get information.
            Online is helpful but it would be nice to LEARN from someone or at
            least socialize. Maybe I need advice.

            there's LEGIo XIII here. Roman centurions and stuff which is
            cool they work really hard on their armour and talk about Jupiter and
            invding hibernia (Ireland *lol*) etc. They can play, but as an Asian
            persona I get a lot of flak I can tell you! I dunno how to be Mz.
            Sociable. Like how I relate as a Heian courtier with a roman senator
            or a big hairy stinky viking! I am trying to use a Japanese accent. I
            only know like 12 words of Japanese (but I am studying *grin*) to kind
            of create the ~feeling~ of the foreigner (me) trying to speak a common
            tongue. Puffy AmiYumi is good music to practice. Or maybe try to
            change grammar? To you milord greetings sent. Setences I chop in half!
            Learn much more, I must. I just feel alone so if I stick out so much
            maybe just keep that up. say what, you?

            ~-Akiko-~
            (new confused and nothing to lose in sweaty eisenmarch ;)
            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Kita Jiru Toramassa <toramassa@g...>
            wrote:
            > Greetings, I also am of Northshield, the shire of Korsvag. I will not
            > claim to be an authority on anything, but I will be happy to be of
            > what assistance I can be. Perhaps the thing I can be of most
            > assistance with is making armor. I have made two sets now, first out
            > of steel and then plastic. There are however others on this group or
            > the web that have some good directions on making Japanese armor.
            > Hopefully these sites will help some:
            > http://www.nb.net/~kmeg/kaminari/Armor/Title.html
            > http://www.armourarchive.org/patterns/sendai_do_apocalypse/
            > http://www.rhinohide.cx/tousando/yoriaku/index.html
            > But most especially Mr. Bryant's site:
            > http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/
            >
            > On 5/25/05, J & C Cameron <cte71259@c...> wrote:
            > > Hello,
            > >
            > > I am known in the SCA as Lord Hawthorn Silverwolf. I have being thinking of a Japanese persona for some time. i live in the Kingdom of Northshield. So i thought why not give it a try. first thing i thing i should go is make some suitable garb. then i will work on Armour. i am currently a 13 century Celt so my Armour will change slowly as i am a heavy fight and fight every chance i get. i just wanted to say hello to the group.
            > >
            > > Blessings, Lord Hawthorn
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            > --
            > "You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I
            > thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible
            > things that happen to us come becuase we actually deserve them? So, now I
            > take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe."
            > -Marcus to Franklin in Babylon 5
            >
            > John Lyon
            > aka The Ugly Dragon
            > aka Kita Jiru Toramassa
          • Kita Jiru Toramassa
            Well In my own shire there were two other people doing japanese but one (the one who got me started) moved to Califorina leaving me and another person. Oddly
            Message 5 of 26 , May 27, 2005
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              Well In my own shire there were two other people doing japanese but
              one (the one who got me started) moved to Califorina leaving me and
              another person. Oddly enough his wife has a Roman persona! She
              actually scolded me, telling me that I "Shouldn't let Eric convert me
              to doing Japanese like he did to Greg (her husband)." Personally the
              biggest factor in my choosing a Japanese Persona was that I thought
              the armor would be easy to make (boy was I wrong). It is simple, but
              not easy and yes there is a difference. I am mostly a Stick Jock, so a
              great many things simply sail over my head. I'm not much for talking
              in persona so much as simply talking, if I wish to talk of matters of
              court I tend to stick with matters of SCA court. My only suggestion is
              that when it comes to manners, more is always better, I was at this
              last Pennsic and happened to be walking along with someone who I just
              meet. I'm not sure where his persona was from, but when we walked past
              the Horde encampment he began to make disparaging comments. It was all
              I could do to keep them from stringing him up. I don't know much about
              Japanese culture but from what I know it seems like there are some
              potentially serious issues if one takes a "traditional" view of
              outsiders (i.e. everyone). My understanding is that the SCA is
              supposed to be a European culture and thus anyone from a non-european
              culture are "visitors". This is one reason I have heard people say
              that japanese personas should be excluded. In general good advice for
              learnind to become "socialable" is to ask questions. Ask that Roman
              Senator to explain to matters of court, ask that stinky viking what he
              had for breakfast.


              On 5/26/05, pennygirlandsea <pennygirlandsea@...> wrote:
              > Deepest greetings of the Noble Rising Sun to you, Toramassadono:
              >
              > Think maybe i said this before but I am too newcomer and it's hard!
              > :(. 'specially cuz there no other (well very few OK) Japanese
              > characters in my shrie (Eisenmarch). So it's hard to get information.
              > Online is helpful but it would be nice to LEARN from someone or at
              > least socialize. Maybe I need advice.
              >
              > there's LEGIo XIII here. Roman centurions and stuff which is
              > cool they work really hard on their armour and talk about Jupiter and
              > invding hibernia (Ireland *lol*) etc. They can play, but as an Asian
              > persona I get a lot of flak I can tell you! I dunno how to be Mz.
              > Sociable. Like how I relate as a Heian courtier with a roman senator
              > or a big hairy stinky viking! I am trying to use a Japanese accent. I
              > only know like 12 words of Japanese (but I am studying *grin*) to kind
              > of create the ~feeling~ of the foreigner (me) trying to speak a common
              > tongue. Puffy AmiYumi is good music to practice. Or maybe try to
              > change grammar? To you milord greetings sent. Setences I chop in half!
              > Learn much more, I must. I just feel alone so if I stick out so much
              > maybe just keep that up. say what, you?
              >
              > ~-Akiko-~
              > (new confused and nothing to lose in sweaty eisenmarch ;)
              > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Kita Jiru Toramassa <toramassa@g...>
              > wrote:
              > > Greetings, I also am of Northshield, the shire of Korsvag. I will not
              > > claim to be an authority on anything, but I will be happy to be of
              > > what assistance I can be. Perhaps the thing I can be of most
              > > assistance with is making armor. I have made two sets now, first out
              > > of steel and then plastic. There are however others on this group or
              > > the web that have some good directions on making Japanese armor.
              > > Hopefully these sites will help some:
              > > http://www.nb.net/~kmeg/kaminari/Armor/Title.html
              > > http://www.armourarchive.org/patterns/sendai_do_apocalypse/
              > > http://www.rhinohide.cx/tousando/yoriaku/index.html
              > > But most especially Mr. Bryant's site:
              > > http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/
              > >
              > > On 5/25/05, J & C Cameron <cte71259@c...> wrote:
              > > > Hello,
              > > >
              > > > I am known in the SCA as Lord Hawthorn Silverwolf. I have being thinking of a Japanese persona for some time. i live in the Kingdom of Northshield. So i thought why not give it a try. first thing i thing i should go is make some suitable garb. then i will work on Armour. i am currently a 13 century Celt so my Armour will change slowly as i am a heavy fight and fight every chance i get. i just wanted to say hello to the group.
              > > >
              > > > Blessings, Lord Hawthorn
              > > >
              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --
              > > "You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I
              > > thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible
              > > things that happen to us come becuase we actually deserve them? So, now I
              > > take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe."
              > > -Marcus to Franklin in Babylon 5
              > >
              > > John Lyon
              > > aka The Ugly Dragon
              > > aka Kita Jiru Toramassa
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >


              --
              "You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I
              thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible
              things that happen to us come becuase we actually deserve them? So, now I
              take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe."
              -Marcus to Franklin in Babylon 5

              John Lyon
              aka The Ugly Dragon
              aka Kita Jiru Toramassa
            • pennygirlandsea
              Wise and gentle Toramassadono! Truly the jade light shines from these words! First event I went to a 14 year old girl was sexually assaulted :( and then some
              Message 6 of 26 , May 27, 2005
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                Wise and gentle Toramassadono! Truly the jade light shines from these
                words!

                First event I went to a 14 year old girl was sexually assaulted :( and
                then some stick jocks went to find the guy who did it. But they beat
                up the wrong guy cuz the gossip spread around the wrong way. Boy, it
                was weird. My mom almost made me quit the SCA!!

                A camp with a Roman and Japanese would be so interesting! don't Roman
                people eat some pickled fish sauce. might taste good with miso! *
                rofl*!

                It is hard to know how to "speak" like a Japanese history in English
                so I did experiment with accent. But true it is subject not style for
                speech that makes a Good Japanese character. I will try your
                suggestions. there is a celt lad (so many celt personas!!) who has
                been very gallant to me so I want to try heian shy style! *note to
                self: buy a FAN!* Kakoi wa yo!!

                that guy making fun of the barbarbians is lucky he didnt get torn in
                two! Since I am Japanese I never let my inner feelings show because it
                is about subtle and restrain. So even if I am with a filthy viking or
                unwashed legionary (at least they shave in rome, hehehe) I don't let
                feelings show. And of course in SCA it's not how the ancient times
                were but how "we wished they would be" so you have to adjust.

                I think about your message. Thank you!!!

                Humble grattitude for the touch of your sincerity.
                ~*Akiko*~
                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Kita Jiru Toramassa <toramassa@g...>
                wrote:
                > Well In my own shire there were two other people doing japanese but
                > one (the one who got me started) moved to Califorina leaving me and
                > another person. Oddly enough his wife has a Roman persona! She
                > actually scolded me, telling me that I "Shouldn't let Eric convert me
                > to doing Japanese like he did to Greg (her husband)." Personally the
                > biggest factor in my choosing a Japanese Persona was that I thought
                > the armor would be easy to make (boy was I wrong). It is simple, but
                > not easy and yes there is a difference. I am mostly a Stick Jock, so a
                > great many things simply sail over my head. I'm not much for talking
                > in persona so much as simply talking, if I wish to talk of matters of
                > court I tend to stick with matters of SCA court. My only suggestion is
                > that when it comes to manners, more is always better, I was at this
                > last Pennsic and happened to be walking along with someone who I just
                > meet. I'm not sure where his persona was from, but when we walked past
                > the Horde encampment he began to make disparaging comments. It was all
                > I could do to keep them from stringing him up. I don't know much about
                > Japanese culture but from what I know it seems like there are some
                > potentially serious issues if one takes a "traditional" view of
                > outsiders (i.e. everyone). My understanding is that the SCA is
                > supposed to be a European culture and thus anyone from a non-european
                > culture are "visitors". This is one reason I have heard people say
                > that japanese personas should be excluded. In general good advice for
                > learnind to become "socialable" is to ask questions. Ask that Roman
                > Senator to explain to matters of court, ask that stinky viking what he
                > had for breakfast.
                >
                >
                > On 5/26/05, pennygirlandsea <pennygirlandsea@y...> wrote:
                > > Deepest greetings of the Noble Rising Sun to you, Toramassadono:
                > >
                > > Think maybe i said this before but I am too newcomer and it's hard!
                > > :(. 'specially cuz there no other (well very few OK) Japanese
                > > characters in my shrie (Eisenmarch). So it's hard to get information.
                > > Online is helpful but it would be nice to LEARN from someone or at
                > > least socialize. Maybe I need advice.
                > >
                > > there's LEGIo XIII here. Roman centurions and stuff which is
                > > cool they work really hard on their armour and talk about Jupiter and
                > > invding hibernia (Ireland *lol*) etc. They can play, but as an Asian
                > > persona I get a lot of flak I can tell you! I dunno how to be Mz.
                > > Sociable. Like how I relate as a Heian courtier with a roman senator
                > > or a big hairy stinky viking! I am trying to use a Japanese accent. I
                > > only know like 12 words of Japanese (but I am studying *grin*) to kind
                > > of create the ~feeling~ of the foreigner (me) trying to speak a common
                > > tongue. Puffy AmiYumi is good music to practice. Or maybe try to
                > > change grammar? To you milord greetings sent. Setences I chop in half!
                > > Learn much more, I must. I just feel alone so if I stick out so much
                > > maybe just keep that up. say what, you?
                > >
                > > ~-Akiko-~
                > > (new confused and nothing to lose in sweaty eisenmarch ;)
                > > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Kita Jiru Toramassa <toramassa@g...>
                > > wrote:
                > > > Greetings, I also am of Northshield, the shire of Korsvag. I will not
                > > > claim to be an authority on anything, but I will be happy to be of
                > > > what assistance I can be. Perhaps the thing I can be of most
                > > > assistance with is making armor. I have made two sets now, first out
                > > > of steel and then plastic. There are however others on this group or
                > > > the web that have some good directions on making Japanese armor.
                > > > Hopefully these sites will help some:
                > > > http://www.nb.net/~kmeg/kaminari/Armor/Title.html
                > > > http://www.armourarchive.org/patterns/sendai_do_apocalypse/
                > > > http://www.rhinohide.cx/tousando/yoriaku/index.html
                > > > But most especially Mr. Bryant's site:
                > > > http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/
                > > >
                > > > On 5/25/05, J & C Cameron <cte71259@c...> wrote:
                > > > > Hello,
                > > > >
                > > > > I am known in the SCA as Lord Hawthorn Silverwolf. I have being thinking of a Japanese persona for some time. i live in the Kingdom of Northshield. So i thought why not give it a try. first thing i thing i should go is make some suitable garb. then i will work on Armour. i am currently a 13 century Celt so my Armour will change slowly as i am a heavy fight and fight every chance i get. i just wanted to say hello to the group.
                > > > >
                > > > > Blessings, Lord Hawthorn
                > > > >
                > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --
                > > > "You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I
                > > > thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible
                > > > things that happen to us come becuase we actually deserve them? So, now I
                > > > take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe."
                > > > -Marcus to Franklin in Babylon 5
                > > >
                > > > John Lyon
                > > > aka The Ugly Dragon
                > > > aka Kita Jiru Toramassa
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > --
                > "You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I
                > thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible
                > things that happen to us come becuase we actually deserve them? So, now I
                > take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe."
                > -Marcus to Franklin in Babylon 5
                >
                > John Lyon
                > aka The Ugly Dragon
                > aka Kita Jiru Toramassa
              • booknerd9
                ... kind ... common ... half! ... much ... Akiko, As for the Japanese, a few words here and there is ok, mostly greetings and titles, but how many other
                Message 7 of 26 , May 27, 2005
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                  --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "pennygirlandsea"
                  <pennygirlandsea@y...> wrote:
                  > only know like 12 words of Japanese (but I am studying *grin*) to
                  kind
                  > of create the ~feeling~ of the foreigner (me) trying to speak a
                  common
                  > tongue. Puffy AmiYumi is good music to practice. Or maybe try to
                  > change grammar? To you milord greetings sent. Setences I chop in
                  half!
                  > Learn much more, I must. I just feel alone so if I stick out so
                  much
                  > maybe just keep that up. say what, you?
                  >
                  > ~-Akiko-~
                  > (new confused and nothing to lose in sweaty eisenmarch ;)

                  Akiko,
                  As for the Japanese, a few words here and there is ok, mostly
                  greetings and titles, but how many other SCAdians do you think can
                  fluently speak the language of their persona? Basically, your
                  behavior will be best way to portray your persona- language isn't an
                  issue.
                  And I hate to sound negative, but I've been taking Japanese for a
                  year (which doesn't entitle me to say much, I know) but it is near
                  impossible to learn Japanese from music- especially Puffy AmiYumi
                  which is geared towards an American audience so you can't be sure of
                  the accurancy and is probably full of "Engfish".
                  As for the grammar, see the first paragraph- it's not worth the
                  effort and no offense, you'll end up sounding more like Yoda. If you
                  want to get the speech patterns down right though, I suggest you pick
                  up a copy (translated, of course) of a Heian era work- Tale of Genji,
                  Pillow Book, etc. The authors of these books tend to stick very close
                  to the literal and write in a very poetic fashion, striving to keep
                  the same tempo and tone, albiet in English.
                  Granted, I'm not the only Japanese persona in my area (shout out the
                  Master Kobayashi and his family, lol) but the key to doing such a
                  different persona is self-esteem. You might stick out, but granted,
                  if you don't cower in a corner and just get on with having fun, no
                  one will make a big deal out of it and you will have a better time
                  that way. As many SCA Japanese persona sites say (and I'm
                  gratuitously paraphrasing), a Japanese persona hanging out with 10th
                  century Spanish persona is just as anachronistic as a 15th Century
                  Italian hanging out with aforementioned 10th Century Persona.
                  So, make a nice hakama and a kosode, a robe or two (go for natural
                  fibers or at least "linen looks" -anything sythetic is a pain to sew)
                  and have fun! That's the most important part!
                  Hope I didn't reiterate anythin anyone else said. But I'm new too
                  and what I've written up is what I've learned during my newbieness.

                  -Noriko
                • Horatius at the Bridge
                  Excuse me, but I take some offence at this statement. I didn t abandon you. I simply continued with my travelling ways. I returned to travelling only when I
                  Message 8 of 26 , May 27, 2005
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                    Excuse me, but I take some offence at this statement. I didn't abandon you.
                    I simply continued with my travelling ways. I returned to travelling only
                    when I was certian that you were capable of sustaining proper Japanese
                    tradition without me. When you claimed to have achieved 'Emotional
                    Authenticity' (The others of you will have to ask him exactly what that
                    means.), it was time for me to move on.

                    To the newest Japanese personae, Toramassa has pointed out individuals who
                    feel it to be their sel-appointed duty to deliver 'The Speech'. The speech
                    is the one which they try to warn you against being Japanese. Do not let
                    these people discourage you. As for the individual in Korsvag who does
                    this... live and learn.

                    Yes, speaking and communicating in a Japanese manner can be difficult. You
                    really don't need to learn the Japanese language to do this, but learning
                    just enough to add a little spice to your conversation skills. Or learning
                    Japanese idioms can be helpful. Watch a few Kurosawa films and watch how the
                    people talk for some ideas.

                    Yes, the bowing can be difficult. Especially for americans. Many of the
                    cultural cues the Japanese used are very alien to western eyes. Thats what
                    makes them fun. Toramassa pointed out the politeness and courtesey. This can
                    be fun if you take it all the way, which some people do. Some people take it
                    even further than they should. But thats just how they want to play. Like
                    everything else in the SCA, you take it as far as you want to.

                    To the new Northshield Japanese, I look forward to meeting you in my
                    travels. Toramassa, I'll see you soon. Clan Genji, hope to meet with you
                    again this summer.

                    Yamazaki Goro.
                    \

                    "History doesn't always repeat itself. Sometimes it just screams, 'Why don't
                    you listen to me?' and lets fly with a big stick." --John W. Campbell Jr




                    >From: Kita Jiru Toramassa <toramassa@...>
                    >Reply-To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                    >To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                    >Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: new to the group
                    >Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 12:33:12 -0500
                    >
                    >Well In my own shire there were two other people doing japanese but
                    >one (the one who got me started) moved to Califorina leaving me and
                    >another person. Oddly enough his wife has a Roman persona! She
                    >actually scolded me, telling me that I "Shouldn't let Eric convert me
                    >to doing Japanese like he did to Greg (her husband)." Personally the
                    >biggest factor in my choosing a Japanese Persona was that I thought
                    >the armor would be easy to make (boy was I wrong). It is simple, but
                    >not easy and yes there is a difference. I am mostly a Stick Jock, so a
                    >great many things simply sail over my head. I'm not much for talking
                    >in persona so much as simply talking, if I wish to talk of matters of
                    >court I tend to stick with matters of SCA court. My only suggestion is
                    >that when it comes to manners, more is always better, I was at this
                    >last Pennsic and happened to be walking along with someone who I just
                    >meet. I'm not sure where his persona was from, but when we walked past
                    >the Horde encampment he began to make disparaging comments. It was all
                    >I could do to keep them from stringing him up. I don't know much about
                    >Japanese culture but from what I know it seems like there are some
                    >potentially serious issues if one takes a "traditional" view of
                    >outsiders (i.e. everyone). My understanding is that the SCA is
                    >supposed to be a European culture and thus anyone from a non-european
                    >culture are "visitors". This is one reason I have heard people say
                    >that japanese personas should be excluded. In general good advice for
                    >learnind to become "socialable" is to ask questions. Ask that Roman
                    >Senator to explain to matters of court, ask that stinky viking what he
                    >had for breakfast.
                    >
                    >
                    >On 5/26/05, pennygirlandsea <pennygirlandsea@...> wrote:
                    > > Deepest greetings of the Noble Rising Sun to you, Toramassadono:
                    > >
                    > > Think maybe i said this before but I am too newcomer and it's hard!
                    > > :(. 'specially cuz there no other (well very few OK) Japanese
                    > > characters in my shrie (Eisenmarch). So it's hard to get information.
                    > > Online is helpful but it would be nice to LEARN from someone or at
                    > > least socialize. Maybe I need advice.
                    > >
                    > > there's LEGIo XIII here. Roman centurions and stuff which is
                    > > cool they work really hard on their armour and talk about Jupiter and
                    > > invding hibernia (Ireland *lol*) etc. They can play, but as an Asian
                    > > persona I get a lot of flak I can tell you! I dunno how to be Mz.
                    > > Sociable. Like how I relate as a Heian courtier with a roman senator
                    > > or a big hairy stinky viking! I am trying to use a Japanese accent. I
                    > > only know like 12 words of Japanese (but I am studying *grin*) to kind
                    > > of create the ~feeling~ of the foreigner (me) trying to speak a common
                    > > tongue. Puffy AmiYumi is good music to practice. Or maybe try to
                    > > change grammar? To you milord greetings sent. Setences I chop in half!
                    > > Learn much more, I must. I just feel alone so if I stick out so much
                    > > maybe just keep that up. say what, you?
                    > >
                    > > ~-Akiko-~
                    > > (new confused and nothing to lose in sweaty eisenmarch ;)
                    > > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Kita Jiru Toramassa <toramassa@g...>
                    > > wrote:
                    > > > Greetings, I also am of Northshield, the shire of Korsvag. I will not
                    > > > claim to be an authority on anything, but I will be happy to be of
                    > > > what assistance I can be. Perhaps the thing I can be of most
                    > > > assistance with is making armor. I have made two sets now, first out
                    > > > of steel and then plastic. There are however others on this group or
                    > > > the web that have some good directions on making Japanese armor.
                    > > > Hopefully these sites will help some:
                    > > > http://www.nb.net/~kmeg/kaminari/Armor/Title.html
                    > > > http://www.armourarchive.org/patterns/sendai_do_apocalypse/
                    > > > http://www.rhinohide.cx/tousando/yoriaku/index.html
                    > > > But most especially Mr. Bryant's site:
                    > > > http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/
                    > > >
                    > > > On 5/25/05, J & C Cameron <cte71259@c...> wrote:
                    > > > > Hello,
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I am known in the SCA as Lord Hawthorn Silverwolf. I have being
                    >thinking of a Japanese persona for some time. i live in the Kingdom of
                    >Northshield. So i thought why not give it a try. first thing i thing i
                    >should go is make some suitable garb. then i will work on Armour. i am
                    >currently a 13 century Celt so my Armour will change slowly as i am a heavy
                    >fight and fight every chance i get. i just wanted to say hello to the
                    >group.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Blessings, Lord Hawthorn
                    > > > >
                    > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > --
                    > > > "You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then
                    >I
                    > > > thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the
                    >terrible
                    > > > things that happen to us come becuase we actually deserve them? So,
                    >now I
                    > > > take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the
                    >universe."
                    > > > -Marcus to Franklin in Babylon 5
                    > > >
                    > > > John Lyon
                    > > > aka The Ugly Dragon
                    > > > aka Kita Jiru Toramassa
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >--
                    >"You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I
                    >thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible
                    >things that happen to us come becuase we actually deserve them? So, now I
                    >take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the
                    >universe."
                    >-Marcus to Franklin in Babylon 5
                    >
                    >John Lyon
                    >aka The Ugly Dragon
                    >aka Kita Jiru Toramassa
                  • pennygirlandsea
                    Noriko-hime! A hundred thousand blessings reflect in the brass mirror of Buddha because of your charitable advice! Well see the only reason I was doing this
                    Message 9 of 26 , May 27, 2005
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                      Noriko-hime! A hundred thousand blessings reflect in the brass mirror
                      of Buddha because of your charitable advice!

                      Well see the only reason I was doing this was because I wanted to make
                      the JAPANESENESS apparent. See we have lots of Scottish guys. In
                      their characters they speak with an accent. Really bad accent. It's
                      like, "Beam me up, Scotty!" They use talk fit for the engine room of
                      the Starship Enterprise. But it's cool-that's how they become
                      SCOTTISH.

                      Yeah glad I am not the only one who finds Japanese HARD! I onlikey
                      Puffi AmiYumi for the accent. I not say I can LEARN Japanese from
                      music. I know they are silly pop music for Americans but what can I
                      do? It was just an idea. Sorry it was soo lame :(.

                      You are right for sure. it is manner and custom to create %100 real
                      Japanese. An earlier post talked about "emotional authenticity" and
                      I'm not sure what that is but it sounds cool.

                      Genji is loooooong. Maybe I find abridged version. But how can I
                      learn "speech patterns"? What do you mean by this? Sorry for being
                      Yoda (although I think he's woot woot kewl). Hey Yoda is Japanese
                      name!and *JEDI* sounds like Japangrish. And doesn't OBI mean
                      something?And don't they wear kinda hakama?Lucas must really dig
                      Kurosawa.

                      boy big digress.Problem is people are very anti-asia here (well not
                      everybody, OK, but I had a herald be kinda mean to me recently--
                      seriously kinda looked down on me. I didn't know how to debate back *
                      sigh*.

                      Your encouragement surely shall bring you three lifetimes closer to
                      endless diamond visions of perfect satori! thanks!!

                      ~*Akiko*~
                      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "booknerd9" <Booknerd9@y...> wrote:
                      > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "pennygirlandsea"
                      > <pennygirlandsea@y...> wrote:
                      > > only know like 12 words of Japanese (but I am studying *grin*) to
                      > kind
                      > > of create the ~feeling~ of the foreigner (me) trying to speak a
                      > common
                      > > tongue. Puffy AmiYumi is good music to practice. Or maybe try to
                      > > change grammar? To you milord greetings sent. Setences I chop in
                      > half!
                      > > Learn much more, I must. I just feel alone so if I stick out so
                      > much
                      > > maybe just keep that up. say what, you?
                      > >
                      > > ~-Akiko-~
                      > > (new confused and nothing to lose in sweaty eisenmarch ;)
                      >
                      > Akiko,
                      > As for the Japanese, a few words here and there is ok, mostly
                      > greetings and titles, but how many other SCAdians do you think can
                      > fluently speak the language of their persona? Basically, your
                      > behavior will be best way to portray your persona- language isn't an
                      > issue.
                      > And I hate to sound negative, but I've been taking Japanese for a
                      > year (which doesn't entitle me to say much, I know) but it is near
                      > impossible to learn Japanese from music- especially Puffy AmiYumi
                      > which is geared towards an American audience so you can't be sure of
                      > the accurancy and is probably full of "Engfish".
                      > As for the grammar, see the first paragraph- it's not worth the
                      > effort and no offense, you'll end up sounding more like Yoda. If you
                      > want to get the speech patterns down right though, I suggest you pick
                      > up a copy (translated, of course) of a Heian era work- Tale of Genji,
                      > Pillow Book, etc. The authors of these books tend to stick very close
                      > to the literal and write in a very poetic fashion, striving to keep
                      > the same tempo and tone, albiet in English.
                      > Granted, I'm not the only Japanese persona in my area (shout out the
                      > Master Kobayashi and his family, lol) but the key to doing such a
                      > different persona is self-esteem. You might stick out, but granted,
                      > if you don't cower in a corner and just get on with having fun, no
                      > one will make a big deal out of it and you will have a better time
                      > that way. As many SCA Japanese persona sites say (and I'm
                      > gratuitously paraphrasing), a Japanese persona hanging out with 10th
                      > century Spanish persona is just as anachronistic as a 15th Century
                      > Italian hanging out with aforementioned 10th Century Persona.
                      > So, make a nice hakama and a kosode, a robe or two (go for natural
                      > fibers or at least "linen looks" -anything sythetic is a pain to sew)
                      > and have fun! That's the most important part!
                      > Hope I didn't reiterate anythin anyone else said. But I'm new too
                      > and what I've written up is what I've learned during my newbieness.
                      >
                      > -Noriko
                    • booknerd9
                      ... So, that s how they do Scotland. And from your description, it sounds a bit on the dorkish side. Not that there s anything wrong with that, lol. ... Aw,
                      Message 10 of 26 , May 27, 2005
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                        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "pennygirlandsea" <pennygirlandsea@y...> wrote:
                        >> Well see the only reason I was doing this was because I wanted to make
                        > the JAPANESENESS apparent. See we have lots of Scottish guys. In
                        > their characters they speak with an accent. Really bad accent. It's
                        > like, "Beam me up, Scotty!" They use talk fit for the engine room of
                        > the Starship Enterprise. But it's cool-that's how they become
                        > SCOTTISH.

                        So, that's how they do Scotland. And from your description, it sounds a bit on the
                        dorkish side. Not that there's anything wrong with that, lol.


                        > Yeah glad I am not the only one who finds Japanese HARD! I onlikey
                        > Puffi AmiYumi for the accent. I not say I can LEARN Japanese from
                        > music. I know they are silly pop music for Americans but what can I
                        > do? It was just an idea. Sorry it was soo lame :(.

                        Aw, it's just not lame. I listen really hard to my FLCL soundtrack trying to see how
                        many words I can pick out. So far, not so good. But get yourself a good textbook/pay
                        attention in class, and even though Japanese is hard, I'm sure you can do it. It is a
                        very difficult language to learn. Almost makes me wish I took Chinese (;

                        > Genji is loooooong. Maybe I find abridged version. But how can I
                        > learn "speech patterns"? What do you mean by this? Sorry for being
                        > Yoda (although I think he's woot woot kewl).... must really dig
                        > Kurosawa.

                        Yes, according to the Simpsons, one of Lucas' inspirations was old Samurai films.
                        There is a good abridged version of Genji out there and most court diaries are very
                        very short, but with introductions that are chock full of good information. I have one
                        more chapter left till I finish the unabridged Tale of Genji- and it's been a year since I
                        started it! Basicaly, if you speak very formally and poetically, and sneak in a few
                        appropriate suffixes etc. then you'll be fine. Personally, I don't really bother. I just
                        wear my garb, cary a fan at all times and just have fun. That's all that matters- having
                        fun in weird clothes (;

                        >
                        > boy big digress.Problem is people are very anti-asia here (well not
                        > everybody, OK, but I had a herald be kinda mean to me recently--
                        > seriously kinda looked down on me. I didn't know how to debate back *
                        > sigh*.
                        >

                        Well, basically, why do you want to reenact Japan? Ancient/Medieval Japan is
                        *nothing* like modern Japan- no bathhouses, no geisha, no sushi etc. So if you're a
                        Japanophile, then you might be a disappointed. I don't want to disencourage you
                        though, just that it might not be what you expected. But enjoy! There's a ton of good
                        information out there and the clothing is really really comfy.
                      • pennygirlandsea
                        Noriko-hime! Once again the delicate incense of your wisdom has wafted across my kokoro! Ok, it seems dorkish to me (just a little bit) but I m a booknerd
                        Message 11 of 26 , May 27, 2005
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                          Noriko-hime! Once again the delicate incense of your wisdom has
                          wafted across my kokoro!

                          Ok, it seems dorkish to me (just a little bit) but I'm a 'booknerd'
                          too so I say Live and Let Liveth!!

                          My newbiness is obvious but its all so exciting you know? So much to
                          learn and so much to see. I am not an ├╝ber-expert like some of the
                          gentle lords/ladies on this list and so I am not totally sure what I
                          am doing. I did a Japanese persona cuz I just feel such a CONNECTION
                          with early Japan. Maybe past-life? Who knows. I don't have any kanji
                          tattoos (yet) but when I got into the SCA with my friend I just
                          thought ok this is for me! My friend did a Muslim persona and started
                          a riot when someone grabbed his koran! it's hard to play non-euro
                          characters :(.

                          Garb has been hard. I paid someone recommended seamstress. It's been
                          like six months and I don't so much as get a basic kosode!! If I
                          mention it at dance practise and she says, "Dont have a cow, milady!"
                          But it's been a longtime. I better learn to sew myself. Thanks for
                          fabric advice.

                          ~*Akiko*~ (last post today I promise!!!!)
                          -- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "booknerd9" <Booknerd9@y...> wrote:
                          > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "pennygirlandsea" <pennygirlandsea@y...> wrote:
                          > >> Well see the only reason I was doing this was because I wanted to make
                          > > the JAPANESENESS apparent. See we have lots of Scottish guys. In
                          > > their characters they speak with an accent. Really bad accent. It's
                          > > like, "Beam me up, Scotty!" They use talk fit for the engine room of
                          > > the Starship Enterprise. But it's cool-that's how they become
                          > > SCOTTISH.
                          >
                          > So, that's how they do Scotland. And from your description, it sounds a bit on the
                          > dorkish side. Not that there's anything wrong with that, lol.
                          >
                          >
                          > > Yeah glad I am not the only one who finds Japanese HARD! I onlikey
                          > > Puffi AmiYumi for the accent. I not say I can LEARN Japanese from
                          > > music. I know they are silly pop music for Americans but what can I
                          > > do? It was just an idea. Sorry it was soo lame :(.
                          >
                          > Aw, it's just not lame. I listen really hard to my FLCL soundtrack trying to see how
                          > many words I can pick out. So far, not so good. But get yourself a good textbook/pay
                          > attention in class, and even though Japanese is hard, I'm sure you can do it. It is a
                          > very difficult language to learn. Almost makes me wish I took Chinese (;
                          >
                          > > Genji is loooooong. Maybe I find abridged version. But how can I
                          > > learn "speech patterns"? What do you mean by this? Sorry for being
                          > > Yoda (although I think he's woot woot kewl).... must really dig
                          > > Kurosawa.
                          >
                          > Yes, according to the Simpsons, one of Lucas' inspirations was old Samurai films.
                          > There is a good abridged version of Genji out there and most court diaries are very
                          > very short, but with introductions that are chock full of good information. I have one
                          > more chapter left till I finish the unabridged Tale of Genji- and it's been a year since I
                          > started it! Basicaly, if you speak very formally and poetically, and sneak in a few
                          > appropriate suffixes etc. then you'll be fine. Personally, I don't really bother. I just
                          > wear my garb, cary a fan at all times and just have fun. That's all that matters- having
                          > fun in weird clothes (;
                          >
                          > >
                          > > boy big digress.Problem is people are very anti-asia here (well not
                          > > everybody, OK, but I had a herald be kinda mean to me recently--
                          > > seriously kinda looked down on me. I didn't know how to debate back *
                          > > sigh*.
                          > >
                          >
                          > Well, basically, why do you want to reenact Japan? Ancient/Medieval Japan is
                          > *nothing* like modern Japan- no bathhouses, no geisha, no sushi etc. So if you're a
                          > Japanophile, then you might be a disappointed. I don't want to disencourage you
                          > though, just that it might not be what you expected. But enjoy! There's a ton of good
                          > information out there and the clothing is really really comfy.
                        • Kita Jiru Toramassa
                          I feel I should add one comment and one minor grip. First to comment on Emotional Authenticity . While working on my new plastic set of armor I decided that I
                          Message 12 of 26 , May 27, 2005
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                            I feel I should add one comment and one minor grip. First to comment
                            on "Emotional Authenticity". While working on my new plastic set of
                            armor I decided that I would like LOTS of lacing on the shoulder
                            plates, to the tune of 1440 holes per side. It took me many hours to
                            lace them all together, and to add my Mon to the lacing. As I was
                            working I had a moment of insight, I had reached emotional
                            authenticity. I knew that the design I had used is not historically
                            accurate, it has been pointed out to me that infact my armor has
                            either to many holes or not enough. However it feels "Authentic" to me
                            because of all the work I put into it. I can not be proud of my armor
                            because it could be mistaken for something any Japanese warrior would
                            have put on, but because of the sheer effort. Some will say that
                            "Emotional Authenticity" is the same thing as saying "I spent many
                            hours doing the wrong thing and I am proud of it" and I can't argue
                            with them, but it is pretty and I like it. <Tiny foot stomp>

                            And now onto the minor gripe. As I have said I am primarily a Stick
                            Jock and this is where my passion and the greatest share of my meager
                            abilities lie. My first morning at last year's Pennsic I left my tent
                            and greeted the couple who were emerging from the neighboring tent.
                            The good and honorable Gentle stood their in his tartan and greeted me
                            in fluent Japanese. The sum total of my Japanese vocabulary can be
                            counted on a single hand and I had to explain to the good gentle that
                            I spoke no japanese. Shortly afterwards I wondered how people would
                            look and goggle at me were I to greet Roman Personas in Latin, or
                            Scottish ones in Gaelic. It seems that it is just those with Japanese
                            Personas are expected to speak the language of their persona. Am I off
                            base here? I am the first to admit that I am neither well traveled nor
                            wise and exprienced in the ways of the SCA so I look to those who are
                            my betters to educate me. Like I said it was a gripe and pretty much a
                            minor one at that.
                            --
                            "You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I
                            thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible
                            things that happen to us come becuase we actually deserve them? So, now I
                            take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe."
                            -Marcus to Franklin in Babylon 5

                            John Lyon
                            aka The Ugly Dragon
                            aka Kita Jiru Toramassa
                          • T. Carpenter
                            ... It seems to me, with my limited experience in the Society, that one must strike a balance between emotional and factual authenticity in anything one does.
                            Message 13 of 26 , May 27, 2005
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                              Kita Jiru Toramassa wrote:
                              > I knew that the design I had used is not historically
                              > accurate, it has been pointed out to me that infact my armor has
                              > either to many holes or not enough. However it feels "Authentic" to me
                              > because of all the work I put into it. I can not be proud of my armor
                              > because it could be mistaken for something any Japanese warrior would
                              > have put on, but because of the sheer effort.

                              It seems to me, with my limited experience in the Society, that one must
                              strike a balance between emotional and factual authenticity in anything
                              one does. This is based purely on the (un)liklihood of any Japanese
                              individuals rubbing elbows with Scottish, Dutch, Holy Roman and French
                              individuals - or even those individuals rubbing elbows with each other,
                              given the disparate time periods and locales involved in the Society at
                              large. I figure as long as A) you're happy with your efforts, B) those
                              efforts at least make an attempt at accuracy on some level, and C) you
                              enjoy yourself... well, that's all you can expect, really. Aren't we all
                              in this for the fun of it?

                              > It seems that it is just those with Japanese
                              > Personas are expected to speak the language of their persona. Am I off
                              > base here?

                              Having been on the other end of this spectrum - the one doing the
                              greeting in Japanese - I would say that 'yes'. I tend to expect
                              individuals in Japanese persona to be at least marginally fluent in the
                              language of that persona. This isn't based on any idea that people must
                              learn *everything* about the culture they're interested in playing at,
                              but rather because I'm an Asian Studies major, and at least 2/3rds of
                              the people I interact with on a daily basis speak Japanese.
                              Consequently, my brain kicks into 'speak Japanese' mode when I see
                              certain things.

                              -Renier Van der Waal, Dutch Mercenary
                              Aka
                              -Tyler Carpenter, Rogue Academic
                              "Cloud-free mountains/Encircle the sea, which holds/The reflected
                              moon:/A view of it there changes/the islands/Into holes of emptiness in
                              a sea of ice" - Saigyo
                            • Otagiri Tatsuzou
                              ... I think there might be several factors at play. (1) Japanese is a living language. Gaelic and Roman Latin are not. (2) There are a lot of Japanese language
                              Message 14 of 26 , May 27, 2005
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                                > The good and honorable Gentle stood their in his tartan and greeted me
                                > in fluent Japanese. The sum total of my Japanese vocabulary can be
                                > counted on a single hand and I had to explain to the good gentle that
                                > I spoke no japanese. Shortly afterwards I wondered how people would
                                > look and goggle at me were I to greet Roman Personas in Latin, or
                                > Scottish ones in Gaelic. It seems that it is just those with Japanese
                                > Personas are expected to speak the language of their persona. Am I off
                                > base here?

                                I think there might be several factors at play.

                                (1) Japanese is a living language. Gaelic and Roman Latin are not.
                                (2) There are a lot of Japanese language martial art/historical movies
                                available. People are used to seeing samurai speaking Japanese. These
                                same people almost always see knights speaking English on the big screen.
                                (3) Japanese personas are out of ordinary in the SCA and therefore
                                many assume that those who portray them have more than a passing
                                interest in Japan.

                                I would hope that most in the SCA would seek to learn at least a
                                little something in the language of their persona ... a nursery rhyme,
                                a common prayer, or a drinking song.

                                All this from 'stick jock' with only the most rudimentary language
                                skills (although enough to object when someone at an event called me
                                'shinobi' in Japanese).

                                Otagiri
                              • Solveig
                                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Japanese isn t HARD. French and German are HARD! I flunked both French and German. I flunked German several times. If
                                Message 15 of 26 , May 29, 2005
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                                  Noble Cousin!

                                  Greetings from Solveig!
                                  >Yeah glad I am not the only one who finds Japanese HARD! I onlikey
                                  >Puffi AmiYumi for the accent. I not say I can LEARN Japanese from
                                  >music. I know they are silly pop music for Americans but what can I
                                  >do? It was just an idea. Sorry it was soo lame :(.
                                  Japanese isn't HARD. French and German are HARD! I flunked both
                                  French and German. I flunked German several times. If I can learn
                                  even a little bit of Japanese, anybody can learn Japanese. However,
                                  you really should not try to learn Japanese from animated cartoons
                                  distributed shown on US television.
                                  --

                                  Your Humble Servant
                                  Solveig Throndardottir
                                  Amateur Scholar

                                  +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                  | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                  | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
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                                • Solveig
                                  Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! ... Although I know that this particular description of the Society is fairly popular, please please please do not
                                  Message 16 of 26 , May 29, 2005
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                                    Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig!

                                    >And of course in SCA it's not how the ancient times were but how "we
                                    >wished they would be" so you have to adjust.

                                    Although I know that this particular description of the Society is
                                    fairly popular, please please please do not promulgate it. This
                                    particular formulation leads in the direction of fantasy not history.
                                    The problem with fantasy quickly becomes: "Whose fantasy?" Perhaps
                                    you are someone who is accustomed to being a group leader, a BMOC or
                                    MWOC, part of the cultural elite, a tend setter, &c. I am not so
                                    fortunate! One of the things that I like most about the Society is
                                    that you can have a real and valuable part of it even if you are none
                                    of those things.
                                    --

                                    Your Humble Servant
                                    Solveig Throndardottir
                                    Amateur Scholar

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                                  • Park McKellop
                                    Very true. While not a complete meritocracy, most of the people who deserve the recognition, get it. Alcyoneus Solveig wrote: One of the
                                    Message 17 of 26 , May 29, 2005
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                                      Very true. While not a complete meritocracy, most of the people who deserve the recognition, get it.

                                      Alcyoneus

                                      Solveig <nostrand@...> wrote:
                                      One of the things that I like most about the Society is that you can have a real and valuable part of it even if you are none of those things.
                                      --

                                      Your Humble Servant
                                      Solveig Throndardottir
                                      Amateur Scholar

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                                    • booknerd9
                                      ... Well, I think a foreign language is hard depending on how one sees things. Japanese grammar is very different from German. Actually, I did quite poorly
                                      Message 18 of 26 , May 29, 2005
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                                        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig <nostrand@a...> wrote:
                                        > Noble Cousin!
                                        >
                                        > Greetings from Solveig!
                                        > Japanese isn't HARD. French and German are HARD! I flunked both
                                        > French and German. I flunked German several times. If I can learn
                                        > even a little bit of Japanese, anybody can learn Japanese. However,
                                        > you really should not try to learn Japanese from animated cartoons
                                        > distributed shown on US television.
                                        >

                                        Well, I think a foreign language is hard depending on how one "sees" things. Japanese
                                        grammar is very different from German. Actually, I did quite poorly at Spanish but
                                        found Latin to be very easy, Japanese is somewhere in between. My roommate, on the
                                        other hand, found Japanese to be impossible but Spanish wasn't so bad.
                                        But this is because I like systems, and being able to see how each word "plunks" into
                                        the sentence, how each word conjugates, and so on. You're probably a "systems"
                                        person too, Solvieg-dono (and seing your work on the Japanese name book, a very
                                        "systems person" sort of pastime, I think you are). Some people are more "holistic"
                                        and see things a bit more "whole", being able to step away from a work and look at it.
                                        So, to each his own, but hopefully, I haven't discouraged anyone. (:
                                      • pennygirlandsea
                                        Noble Cousin! Many handed Kannon-sama sending forth lots of letters! BMOC, PhD, it s all the same in eternity. as if all the old humorous courage of the year
                                        Message 19 of 26 , May 29, 2005
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                                          Noble Cousin! Many handed Kannon-sama sending forth lots of letters!
                                          BMOC, PhD, it's all the same in eternity.

                                          as if all the old humorous courage of the year before has given away
                                          to a profound Japanese skepticism like that of a Samurai warrior in a
                                          fit of death without duty (surprising me in its abject gloomy fearful
                                          frown). i mean it was my first frightened realization of what to be
                                          Japanese really meant--To be Japanese and not believe in life any more
                                          and to be gloomy like Beethoven yet to be Japanese in gloom, the gloom
                                          of Basho behind it all, the huge thunderous scowl of Issa or of Shiki,
                                          kneeling in the frost with the head bowed like the bowed-head-oblivion
                                          of all the old horses of Japan long dust. what is keeping me is I know
                                          George will get better and live and teach the joyful truth and George
                                          knows that I know this, that's why he's playing the game with me, the
                                          magic game of glad freedom which is Zen or for that matter the
                                          Japanese soul ultimately means I say, "And someday I will go to Japan
                                          with you" I tell myself after we've made our last little wave because
                                          I've heard the supper bell ring and seen the other cancer patients
                                          rush for the chow line and knowing George's fantastic appetite is
                                          wrapped in that little frail body I dont wanta hang him up tho he
                                          nevertheless does one last trick: he throws a glass of water out the
                                          window in a big froosh of water I dont see him any more.

                                          Books, shmooks, the frog who never moves and thunders.

                                          aaahkiii


                                          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig <nostrand@a...> wrote:
                                          > Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig!
                                          >
                                          > >And of course in SCA it's not how the ancient times were but how "we
                                          > >wished they would be" so you have to adjust.
                                          >
                                          > Although I know that this particular description of the Society is
                                          > fairly popular, please please please do not promulgate it. This
                                          > particular formulation leads in the direction of fantasy not history.
                                          > The problem with fantasy quickly becomes: "Whose fantasy?" Perhaps
                                          > you are someone who is accustomed to being a group leader, a BMOC or
                                          > MWOC, part of the cultural elite, a tend setter, &c. I am not so
                                          > fortunate! One of the things that I like most about the Society is
                                          > that you can have a real and valuable part of it even if you are none
                                          > of those things.
                                          > --
                                          >
                                          > Your Humble Servant
                                          > Solveig Throndardottir
                                          > Amateur Scholar
                                          >
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                                          > | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                          > | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                          > | mailto:nostrand@a... | mailto:Solveig@d... |
                                          > +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
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                                        • ekoogler1@comcast.net
                                          I have never worried too much about speaking Japanese, beyond trying to address folk correctly. One of my reasons is that I simply don t know Japanese. I
                                          Message 20 of 26 , May 30, 2005
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                                            I have never worried too much about speaking Japanese, beyond trying to address folk correctly. One of my reasons is that I simply don't know Japanese. I studied Chinese when working on my M.A. because I knew that most documents that I would be reading if I pursued getting a PhD. in Japanese Art History would be written in classical Chinese kanji. Secondly, I have had other things that I wanted to learn about and, as time is limited, I had to pick and choose what was important to me. So...I have concentrated on trying to convey my "Japanese-ness" by my actions and comportment. And it seems to have worked over the years. The first time I ever appeared at an event in European garb, no one recognized me! This from a rather stout person with reddish brown hair and freckles!!!

                                            I guess the story that comes to mind when talking about this is what happened at my third event. A rather pompous soul walked up to me and addressed me in modern Japanese using a modern honorific. I responded that I was unable to return more than his greeting as I didn't speak this modern language. He then informed me that he didn't understand how I could purport to have a Japanese persona without speaking the language. I told him that I was unable to determine what the form of the period language would have been...and wondered if he spoke Scots Gaelic! He turned on his heel in quite a huff and stalked off!

                                            Kiri






                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • James Eckman
                                            ... Isn t it already to late? I don t know what to call a collection of people gathering together with persona from over a 1,000 year period other than a
                                            Message 21 of 26 , May 30, 2005
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                                              >
                                              >
                                              > From: Solveig <nostrand@...> Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig!
                                              >
                                              >>>And of course in SCA it's not how the ancient times were but how "we
                                              >>>wished they would be" so you have to adjust.
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >
                                              >Although I know that this particular description of the Society is
                                              >fairly popular, please please please do not promulgate it. This
                                              >particular formulation leads in the direction of fantasy not history.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              Isn't it already to late? I don't know what to call a collection of
                                              people gathering together with persona from over a 1,000 year period
                                              other than a fantasy. Hopefully nobody is infecting themselves with
                                              plague, letting their teeth rot or cultivating lice.

                                              >The problem with fantasy quickly becomes: "Whose fantasy?"
                                              >
                                              Hopefully one with a strong historical background.

                                              >Perhaps you are someone who is accustomed to being a group leader, a BMOC or
                                              >MWOC, part of the cultural elite, a tend setter, &c. I am not so
                                              >fortunate!
                                              >
                                              I'm not sure that being such a person is fortunate. I prefer the nerd
                                              life myself.

                                              >One of the things that I like most about the Society is
                                              >that you can have a real and valuable part of it even if you are none
                                              >of those things.
                                              >
                                              You mean there's no politics in the SCA ;) Hopefully it won't go the way
                                              of some of the local fairs, since there's not much money to be made, I
                                              pray that's the case.

                                              Jim Eckman
                                            • Solveig
                                              Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! ... This business about we wished they would be is NOT an inherent consequence of anachronism, otherwise every
                                              Message 22 of 26 , May 30, 2005
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                                                Noble Cousins!

                                                Greetings from Solveig!

                                                I wrote:
                                                > >Although I know that this particular description of the Society is
                                                >>fairly popular, please please please do not promulgate it. This
                                                > >particular formulation leads in the direction of fantasy not history.

                                                Another replied:
                                                >Isn't it already to late? I don't know what to call a collection of
                                                >people gathering together with persona from over a 1,000 year period
                                                >other than a fantasy. Hopefully nobody is infecting themselves with
                                                >plague, letting their teeth rot or cultivating lice.

                                                This business about "we wished they would be" is NOT an inherent
                                                consequence of anachronism, otherwise every history conference
                                                including Kalamazoo would be a fantasy event. Mixing different epocs
                                                and places does not require abandonment of good research. It cerntaly
                                                does not require descent into fantasy.

                                                > >One of the things that I like most about the Society is
                                                >>that you can have a real and valuable part of it even if you are none
                                                >>of those things.
                                                >>
                                                >You mean there's no politics in the SCA ;) Hopefully it won't go the way
                                                >of some of the local fairs, since there's not much money to be made, I
                                                >pray that's the case.

                                                No. There is pleanty of politics in the Society. I believe that the
                                                "Dream", "the we would like them to be", &c acts collectively as an
                                                arsenal for some of the nastiest most exclusionary politics in the
                                                Society. History is a game that we can all play. It is a game that
                                                anyone can get better at simply by applying themselves over time. The
                                                politics of the popular is another matter.
                                                --

                                                Your Humble Servant
                                                Solveig Throndardottir
                                                Amateur Scholar

                                                +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                                | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                                | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
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                                              • makiwara_no_yetsuko
                                                She who is called Makiwara, having completed her journey safely, sends ... This person humbly suggests from personal experience that Akiko-hime stop traffic
                                                Message 23 of 26 , May 31, 2005
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                                                  She who is called Makiwara, having completed her journey safely, sends
                                                  belated greetings, and perhaps a few words of advice:

                                                  > Like how I relate as a Heian courtier with a roman senator
                                                  > or a big hairy stinky viking!
                                                  This person humbly suggests from personal experience that Akiko-hime
                                                  stop traffic with her exotic elegance, impress them with her erudition
                                                  and slay them with her exquisite courtesy. [Thou Shalt Be Classy.]

                                                  > I am trying to use a Japanese accent.
                                                  This person humbly begs Akiko-hime to consider not doing this. Unless
                                                  it is done really, REALLY well, one runs the risk of appearing
                                                  undignified and foolish, not to mention being potentially offensive.

                                                  > Or maybe try to change grammar?
                                                  One runs the risk, again, of appearing undignified and foolish. Yoda
                                                  can get away with it. He's a rubber puppet. As others have posted, it
                                                  is not necessary to speak (modern) Japanese as most of the people
                                                  we're interacting with speak (modern) English. Like a dash of wasabi,
                                                  a discreet seasoning of your everyday English with a Japanese word or
                                                  two (simple greetings, "please" and "thank you" and basic honorifics)
                                                  goes a long way in flavoring your social interactions without making
                                                  them incomprehensible.

                                                  > I just feel alone so if I stick out so much maybe just keep that up.
                                                  Japanese personae are pretty thin on the ground in my kingdom too. It
                                                  is what it is. The SCA's primary scope is pre 17th century Europe.
                                                  Those of us who portray non Europeans are considered "guests" from
                                                  foreign lands. And yes, sometimes we run up against people who believe
                                                  we don't belong here at all. That is THEIR problem.

                                                  It occurs to me that you might try thinking of yourself as an
                                                  ambassador. Your karma has placed you in the (historically
                                                  implausible) position of having to socialize with the namban. Think
                                                  about making the sort of impression that will foster fruitful
                                                  relations with these weird strangers, to the greater glory of the Emperor.

                                                  Hope this makes some sense to you, I admit I'm still a little jet lagged.

                                                  Makiwara






                                                  > (new confused and nothing to lose in sweaty eisenmarch ;)
                                                  > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Kita Jiru Toramassa <toramassa@g...>
                                                  > wrote:
                                                  > > Greetings, I also am of Northshield, the shire of Korsvag. I will not
                                                  > > claim to be an authority on anything, but I will be happy to be of
                                                  > > what assistance I can be. Perhaps the thing I can be of most
                                                  > > assistance with is making armor. I have made two sets now, first out
                                                  > > of steel and then plastic. There are however others on this group or
                                                  > > the web that have some good directions on making Japanese armor.
                                                  > > Hopefully these sites will help some:
                                                  > > http://www.nb.net/~kmeg/kaminari/Armor/Title.html
                                                  > > http://www.armourarchive.org/patterns/sendai_do_apocalypse/
                                                  > > http://www.rhinohide.cx/tousando/yoriaku/index.html
                                                  > > But most especially Mr. Bryant's site:
                                                  > > http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/
                                                  > >
                                                  > > On 5/25/05, J & C Cameron <cte71259@c...> wrote:
                                                  > > > Hello,
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > I am known in the SCA as Lord Hawthorn Silverwolf. I have being
                                                  thinking of a Japanese persona for some time. i live in the Kingdom of
                                                  Northshield. So i thought why not give it a try. first thing i thing i
                                                  should go is make some suitable garb. then i will work on Armour. i am
                                                  currently a 13 century Celt so my Armour will change slowly as i am a
                                                  heavy fight and fight every chance i get. i just wanted to say hello
                                                  to the group.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Blessings, Lord Hawthorn
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > --
                                                  > > "You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair.
                                                  Then I
                                                  > > thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the
                                                  terrible
                                                  > > things that happen to us come becuase we actually deserve them?
                                                  So, now I
                                                  > > take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the
                                                  universe."
                                                  > > -Marcus to Franklin in Babylon 5
                                                  > >
                                                  > > John Lyon
                                                  > > aka The Ugly Dragon
                                                  > > aka Kita Jiru Toramassa
                                                • Solveig
                                                  Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Please don t do this unless you are a talented comic like Hachirou dono. Even then, you should do it sparingly and
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Jun 1, 2005
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                                                    Noble Cousin!

                                                    Greetings from Solveig!
                                                    > > I am trying to use a Japanese accent.
                                                    Please don't do this unless you are a talented comic like Hachirou
                                                    dono. Even then, you should do it sparingly and pretty much only when
                                                    "on stage". It is very unusual for someone's accent to sound funny to
                                                    themselves.

                                                    > > Or maybe try to change grammar?
                                                    I suppose you can do this in private if you are using this as a
                                                    technique for actually learning Japanese.

                                                    >As others have posted, it is not necessary to speak (modern)
                                                    >Japanese as most of the people we're interacting with speak (modern)
                                                    >English.

                                                    However, you CAN easily spice things up with English translations of
                                                    comon place Japanese expressions and speech patterns or even Japanese
                                                    stock phrases. You can learn to say: itakadakimasu, and
                                                    gochisousamadeshita, and stuff like that. A cheery Ohayougozaimasu or
                                                    Irashaimase or Okaerinasai when someone arrives. That sort of thing.

                                                    >It occurs to me that you might try thinking of yourself as an
                                                    >ambassador.

                                                    Actually, this is a good way to approach "ware ware" Japanse group
                                                    think. If you think of yourself as an amassador, you are likely to
                                                    adopt more authentically Japanese approaches to things.
                                                    --

                                                    Your Humble Servant
                                                    Solveig Throndardottir
                                                    Amateur Scholar

                                                    +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                                    | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                                    | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                                    | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
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                                                  • pennygirlandsea
                                                    ... I am already undignified and foolish, but offensive I m not sure. Wasn t there a discussion already about offensive and Japanese persona? maybe actual
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Jun 1, 2005
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                                                      Makiwara-hime, most laudibly instructive and discreet in manner:

                                                      > undignified and foolish, not to mention being potentially offensive.
                                                      I am already undignified and foolish, but offensive I'm not sure.
                                                      Wasn't there a discussion already about offensive and Japanese
                                                      persona? maybe actual Japanese person at an SCA even (super-rare
                                                      thing) he/she might be annoyed, but I don't see why whiteys should be
                                                      mad. as I said before I hear *bad* Scottish accents almost every
                                                      event.

                                                      > Hope this makes some sense to you, I admit I'm still a little jet lagged.

                                                      jet lagged??? what is this WITCHERY of which you speak??

                                                      ~*AkIkO*~
                                                      >
                                                      > > (new confused and nothing to lose in sweaty eisenmarch ;)
                                                      > > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Kita Jiru Toramassa <toramassa@g...>
                                                      > > wrote:
                                                      > > > Greetings, I also am of Northshield, the shire of Korsvag. I will not
                                                      > > > claim to be an authority on anything, but I will be happy to be of
                                                      > > > what assistance I can be. Perhaps the thing I can be of most
                                                      > > > assistance with is making armor. I have made two sets now, first out
                                                      > > > of steel and then plastic. There are however others on this group or
                                                      > > > the web that have some good directions on making Japanese armor.
                                                      > > > Hopefully these sites will help some:
                                                      > > > http://www.nb.net/~kmeg/kaminari/Armor/Title.html
                                                      > > > http://www.armourarchive.org/patterns/sendai_do_apocalypse/
                                                      > > > http://www.rhinohide.cx/tousando/yoriaku/index.html
                                                      > > > But most especially Mr. Bryant's site:
                                                      > > > http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > On 5/25/05, J & C Cameron <cte71259@c...> wrote:
                                                      > > > > Hello,
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > > I am known in the SCA as Lord Hawthorn Silverwolf. I have being
                                                      > thinking of a Japanese persona for some time. i live in the Kingdom of
                                                      > Northshield. So i thought why not give it a try. first thing i thing i
                                                      > should go is make some suitable garb. then i will work on Armour. i am
                                                      > currently a 13 century Celt so my Armour will change slowly as i am a
                                                      > heavy fight and fight every chance i get. i just wanted to say hello
                                                      > to the group.
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > > Blessings, Lord Hawthorn
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                      > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > --
                                                      > > > "You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair.
                                                      > Then I
                                                      > > > thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the
                                                      > terrible
                                                      > > > things that happen to us come becuase we actually deserve them?
                                                      > So, now I
                                                      > > > take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the
                                                      > universe."
                                                      > > > -Marcus to Franklin in Babylon 5
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > John Lyon
                                                      > > > aka The Ugly Dragon
                                                      > > > aka Kita Jiru Toramassa
                                                    • makiwara_no_yetsuko
                                                      ... My real life ancestors didn t sound like a freakin Lucky Charms commercial. This IS offensive - and I m not exactly the most politically correct person on
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Jun 1, 2005
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                                                        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "pennygirlandsea"
                                                        <pennygirlandsea@y...> wrote:
                                                        > as I said before I hear *bad* Scottish accents almost every
                                                        > event.

                                                        My real life ancestors didn't sound like a freakin' Lucky Charms
                                                        commercial. This IS offensive - and I'm not exactly the most
                                                        politically correct person on the planet.

                                                        > jet lagged??? what is this WITCHERY of which you speak??
                                                        Er, I mean, I'm still a bit tired from a very long palanquin ride
                                                        along the Tokaido. ;->

                                                        M.
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