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Re: Ranks and Personae

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  • booknerd9
    Thank you. I am interested in Heian, though I joke to myself, love the Heian, only enough fabric and funds for Kamakura. Anyway, some of the questions on the
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 1, 2005
      Thank you. I am interested in Heian, though I joke to myself, "love the Heian, only
      enough fabric and funds for Kamakura." Anyway, some of the questions on the little
      persona worksheet (though I'm not bound to answer them, of course, lol) are what
      my persona's father and mother do. To write that daddy is such and such rank
      seems a bit .... even though it'll never come up. Someone is more likely to ask me
      what my real father does, as opposed to Nori's. (:
      E




      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig <nostrand@a...> wrote:
      > Noble Cousin!
      >
      > Greetings from Solveig! Are you interested in the Heian period? If
      > you are interested in the Heian period, then you can start out with
      > something nice and safe like rank 9. These do not require appointment
      > by the emperor and correspond fairly well to the minimum presumptive
      > level allowed to all members. Your father's rank is somewhat
      > separable from your own step on the ladder. As a female, you are a
      > vehicle for advancement for your family.
      > --
    • sigrune@aol.com
      Hello, Solvieg is quite right, rank is a touchy thing in the SCA and realy, well it should be. People work hard to advance, (not nessisarily their motivation,
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 3, 2005
        Hello,

        Solvieg is quite right, rank is a touchy thing in the SCA and realy, well it should be. People work hard to advance, (not nessisarily their motivation, but hard work goes into what translates as rank,) and the awards are their reward for their dilligence, and often assistance to help others learn. To have someone falsly claim rank bellittles the honor bestowed on the intended.

        That being said, when you discuss your persona one could indeed say "my father, Nani-nani-dono, is the Director/Advisor/Functionary of (insert obscure bureau here)"
        In a japanese context if a person is discussing your family with you, they brobably want to know exactly what it is your father does to see how upwardly (or downwardly) mobile your family is and also weither you are of the right, or the left.
        By stating the office of your father, you indicate by suggestion his rank.

        Why this way should be ok and won't ruffle feathers, is that even among the most well versed of us here, I doubt there is more than 3 people that could hear a name and tell you the corresponding rank. 95% or more of SCA people will have no clue what you are talking about and just nod their heads and say, "ahh". In this manner you will not offend or be presuptuous.

        Also the chart you found on the albany.edu site, very interesting my friend and mentor is the one who coded the original, might be a "pirate" copy.
        The original is here: http://modzer0.cs.uaf.edu/~logan/JapaneseHistory/index.php
        follow the link to the Ritsu-ryo Chart.

        -Takeda Sanjuichiro Akimasa
      • makiwara_no_yetsuko
        ... Nobody s ever asked me yet. ;- M.
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 3, 2005
          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "booknerd9" <Booknerd9@y...> wrote:
          > To write that daddy is such and such rank
          > seems a bit .... even though it'll never come up.

          Nobody's ever asked me yet. ;->

          M.
        • booknerd9
          ... Nani-nani-dono, is the Director/Advisor/Functionary of (insert obscure bureau here) ... brobably want to know exactly what it is your father does to see
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 3, 2005
            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, sigrune@a... wrote:
            ....
            > That being said, when you discuss your persona one could indeed say "my father,
            Nani-nani-dono, is the Director/Advisor/Functionary of (insert obscure bureau
            here)"
            > In a japanese context if a person is discussing your family with you, they
            brobably want to know exactly what it is your father does to see how upwardly (or
            downwardly) mobile your family is and also weither you are of the right, or the left.
            > By stating the office of your father, you indicate by suggestion his rank.
            >
            .....
            > Also the chart you found on the albany.edu site, very interesting my friend and
            mentor is the one who coded the original, might be a "pirate" copy.
            > The original is here: http://modzer0.cs.uaf.edu/~logan/JapaneseHistory/
            index.php
            > follow the link to the Ritsu-ryo Chart.
            >
            > -Takeda Sanjuichiro Akimasa

            Wow! That chart is really nifty and quite easy to navigate, the one online is terribly
            hard to read unless you have a dual monitor set-up or something. (: Thank you.
          • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
            ... Nope, it is actually the other way around, I believe. We have used that chart, along with other sources, to compile one that we could read, along with
            Message 5 of 9 , Apr 3, 2005
              On Apr 3, 2005 8:06 AM, sigrune@... <sigrune@...> wrote:

              > Why this way should be ok and won't ruffle feathers, is that even among the
              > most well versed of us here, I doubt there is more than 3 people that could
              > hear a name and tell you the corresponding rank. 95% or more of SCA people
              > will have no clue what you are talking about and just nod their heads and
              > say, "ahh". In this manner you will not offend or be presuptuous.
              >
              > Also the chart you found on the albany.edu site, very interesting my friend
              > and mentor is the one who coded the original, might be a "pirate" copy.
              > The original is here:
              > http://modzer0.cs.uaf.edu/~logan/JapaneseHistory/index.php
              > follow the link to the Ritsu-ryo Chart.

              Nope, it is actually the other way around, I believe. We have used
              that chart, along with other sources, to compile one that we could
              read, along with other information such as the pronunciations, etc.
              The formatting in Excel was done by Abe no Kotori. The actual
              provenance is given at the bottom of the chart.

              I'd love to take credit for it beyond that, but can't. I plan to do
              more work to break out the upper and lower as well as senior and
              junior, once I get a chance.
              The accompanying 'Rank and Postion' list
              (http://modzer0.cs.uaf.edu/~logan/JapaneseHistory/documentation/Rank-Position.doc)
              is what we really added, with a list of positions arranged by rank, so
              that if you are X rank you can figure out what you would do.


              -Ii
            • Solveig
              Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Actually, the daughters of the lower kuge were rather prolific writers. Don t fret about descending from the lower kuge,
              Message 6 of 9 , Apr 3, 2005
                Noble Cousin!

                Greetings from Solveig! Actually, the daughters of the lower kuge
                were rather prolific writers. Don't fret about descending from the
                lower kuge, you get to write wonderful diaries and novels complaining
                about being posted to the provinces and other stuff. You can talk
                about how you hope that your father will be promoted, you can talk
                about how your father will be appointed to office, you can talk about
                that attractivce captain of the gate guards, but how your father
                wants you to marry someone of higher rank.
                --

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar

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              • Solveig
                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... The point is very well taken. Basically, if you claim that your father is sixth rank or lower, you are safe as that
                Message 7 of 9 , Apr 3, 2005
                  Noble Cousin!

                  Greetings from Solveig!

                  >That being said, when you discuss your persona one could indeed say
                  >"my father, Nani-nani-dono, is the Director/Advisor/Functionary of
                  >(insert obscure bureau here)"
                  >In a japanese context if a person is discussing your family with
                  >you, they brobably want to know exactly what it is your father does
                  >to see how upwardly (or downwardly) mobile your family is and also
                  >weither you are of the right, or the left.
                  >By stating the office of your father, you indicate by suggestion his rank.

                  The point is very well taken. Basically, if you claim that your
                  father is sixth rank or lower, you are safe as that while that sort
                  of rank makes you elligible for service, it doesn't automatically
                  give you much above rank nine which is the bottom of the kuge. It
                  also makes your father eligible for service as a minor provinical
                  governor or much more adventurously as a deputy governor. The deputy
                  governors were much more likely to be stuck with the job of actually
                  living in the provinces which allows you to be living someplace other
                  than Heiankyou.
                  --

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar

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                  | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                  | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                  | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
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