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Re: [SCA-JML] Ranks and Personae

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  • Solveig
    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Are you interested in the Heian period? If you are interested in the Heian period, then you can start out with something
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 1, 2005
      Noble Cousin!

      Greetings from Solveig! Are you interested in the Heian period? If
      you are interested in the Heian period, then you can start out with
      something nice and safe like rank 9. These do not require appointment
      by the emperor and correspond fairly well to the minimum presumptive
      level allowed to all members. Your father's rank is somewhat
      separable from your own step on the ladder. As a female, you are a
      vehicle for advancement for your family.
      --

      Your Humble Servant
      Solveig Throndardottir
      Amateur Scholar

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    • booknerd9
      Thank you. I am interested in Heian, though I joke to myself, love the Heian, only enough fabric and funds for Kamakura. Anyway, some of the questions on the
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 1, 2005
        Thank you. I am interested in Heian, though I joke to myself, "love the Heian, only
        enough fabric and funds for Kamakura." Anyway, some of the questions on the little
        persona worksheet (though I'm not bound to answer them, of course, lol) are what
        my persona's father and mother do. To write that daddy is such and such rank
        seems a bit .... even though it'll never come up. Someone is more likely to ask me
        what my real father does, as opposed to Nori's. (:
        E




        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig <nostrand@a...> wrote:
        > Noble Cousin!
        >
        > Greetings from Solveig! Are you interested in the Heian period? If
        > you are interested in the Heian period, then you can start out with
        > something nice and safe like rank 9. These do not require appointment
        > by the emperor and correspond fairly well to the minimum presumptive
        > level allowed to all members. Your father's rank is somewhat
        > separable from your own step on the ladder. As a female, you are a
        > vehicle for advancement for your family.
        > --
      • sigrune@aol.com
        Hello, Solvieg is quite right, rank is a touchy thing in the SCA and realy, well it should be. People work hard to advance, (not nessisarily their motivation,
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 3, 2005
          Hello,

          Solvieg is quite right, rank is a touchy thing in the SCA and realy, well it should be. People work hard to advance, (not nessisarily their motivation, but hard work goes into what translates as rank,) and the awards are their reward for their dilligence, and often assistance to help others learn. To have someone falsly claim rank bellittles the honor bestowed on the intended.

          That being said, when you discuss your persona one could indeed say "my father, Nani-nani-dono, is the Director/Advisor/Functionary of (insert obscure bureau here)"
          In a japanese context if a person is discussing your family with you, they brobably want to know exactly what it is your father does to see how upwardly (or downwardly) mobile your family is and also weither you are of the right, or the left.
          By stating the office of your father, you indicate by suggestion his rank.

          Why this way should be ok and won't ruffle feathers, is that even among the most well versed of us here, I doubt there is more than 3 people that could hear a name and tell you the corresponding rank. 95% or more of SCA people will have no clue what you are talking about and just nod their heads and say, "ahh". In this manner you will not offend or be presuptuous.

          Also the chart you found on the albany.edu site, very interesting my friend and mentor is the one who coded the original, might be a "pirate" copy.
          The original is here: http://modzer0.cs.uaf.edu/~logan/JapaneseHistory/index.php
          follow the link to the Ritsu-ryo Chart.

          -Takeda Sanjuichiro Akimasa
        • makiwara_no_yetsuko
          ... Nobody s ever asked me yet. ;- M.
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 3, 2005
            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "booknerd9" <Booknerd9@y...> wrote:
            > To write that daddy is such and such rank
            > seems a bit .... even though it'll never come up.

            Nobody's ever asked me yet. ;->

            M.
          • booknerd9
            ... Nani-nani-dono, is the Director/Advisor/Functionary of (insert obscure bureau here) ... brobably want to know exactly what it is your father does to see
            Message 5 of 9 , Apr 3, 2005
              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, sigrune@a... wrote:
              ....
              > That being said, when you discuss your persona one could indeed say "my father,
              Nani-nani-dono, is the Director/Advisor/Functionary of (insert obscure bureau
              here)"
              > In a japanese context if a person is discussing your family with you, they
              brobably want to know exactly what it is your father does to see how upwardly (or
              downwardly) mobile your family is and also weither you are of the right, or the left.
              > By stating the office of your father, you indicate by suggestion his rank.
              >
              .....
              > Also the chart you found on the albany.edu site, very interesting my friend and
              mentor is the one who coded the original, might be a "pirate" copy.
              > The original is here: http://modzer0.cs.uaf.edu/~logan/JapaneseHistory/
              index.php
              > follow the link to the Ritsu-ryo Chart.
              >
              > -Takeda Sanjuichiro Akimasa

              Wow! That chart is really nifty and quite easy to navigate, the one online is terribly
              hard to read unless you have a dual monitor set-up or something. (: Thank you.
            • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
              ... Nope, it is actually the other way around, I believe. We have used that chart, along with other sources, to compile one that we could read, along with
              Message 6 of 9 , Apr 3, 2005
                On Apr 3, 2005 8:06 AM, sigrune@... <sigrune@...> wrote:

                > Why this way should be ok and won't ruffle feathers, is that even among the
                > most well versed of us here, I doubt there is more than 3 people that could
                > hear a name and tell you the corresponding rank. 95% or more of SCA people
                > will have no clue what you are talking about and just nod their heads and
                > say, "ahh". In this manner you will not offend or be presuptuous.
                >
                > Also the chart you found on the albany.edu site, very interesting my friend
                > and mentor is the one who coded the original, might be a "pirate" copy.
                > The original is here:
                > http://modzer0.cs.uaf.edu/~logan/JapaneseHistory/index.php
                > follow the link to the Ritsu-ryo Chart.

                Nope, it is actually the other way around, I believe. We have used
                that chart, along with other sources, to compile one that we could
                read, along with other information such as the pronunciations, etc.
                The formatting in Excel was done by Abe no Kotori. The actual
                provenance is given at the bottom of the chart.

                I'd love to take credit for it beyond that, but can't. I plan to do
                more work to break out the upper and lower as well as senior and
                junior, once I get a chance.
                The accompanying 'Rank and Postion' list
                (http://modzer0.cs.uaf.edu/~logan/JapaneseHistory/documentation/Rank-Position.doc)
                is what we really added, with a list of positions arranged by rank, so
                that if you are X rank you can figure out what you would do.


                -Ii
              • Solveig
                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Actually, the daughters of the lower kuge were rather prolific writers. Don t fret about descending from the lower kuge,
                Message 7 of 9 , Apr 3, 2005
                  Noble Cousin!

                  Greetings from Solveig! Actually, the daughters of the lower kuge
                  were rather prolific writers. Don't fret about descending from the
                  lower kuge, you get to write wonderful diaries and novels complaining
                  about being posted to the provinces and other stuff. You can talk
                  about how you hope that your father will be promoted, you can talk
                  about how your father will be appointed to office, you can talk about
                  that attractivce captain of the gate guards, but how your father
                  wants you to marry someone of higher rank.
                  --

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar

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                  | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                  | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                  | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
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                • Solveig
                  Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... The point is very well taken. Basically, if you claim that your father is sixth rank or lower, you are safe as that
                  Message 8 of 9 , Apr 3, 2005
                    Noble Cousin!

                    Greetings from Solveig!

                    >That being said, when you discuss your persona one could indeed say
                    >"my father, Nani-nani-dono, is the Director/Advisor/Functionary of
                    >(insert obscure bureau here)"
                    >In a japanese context if a person is discussing your family with
                    >you, they brobably want to know exactly what it is your father does
                    >to see how upwardly (or downwardly) mobile your family is and also
                    >weither you are of the right, or the left.
                    >By stating the office of your father, you indicate by suggestion his rank.

                    The point is very well taken. Basically, if you claim that your
                    father is sixth rank or lower, you are safe as that while that sort
                    of rank makes you elligible for service, it doesn't automatically
                    give you much above rank nine which is the bottom of the kuge. It
                    also makes your father eligible for service as a minor provinical
                    governor or much more adventurously as a deputy governor. The deputy
                    governors were much more likely to be stuck with the job of actually
                    living in the provinces which allows you to be living someplace other
                    than Heiankyou.
                    --

                    Your Humble Servant
                    Solveig Throndardottir
                    Amateur Scholar

                    +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                    | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                    | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                    +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to the |
                    | trash by my email filters. |
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