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Ranks and Personae

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  • booknerd9
    My local group recently had a visit from our Baron, who is a self-proclaimed persona junkie. However, I ran into one snag in hacking away at a bit of a
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 1, 2005
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      My local group recently had a visit from our Baron, who is a self-proclaimed
      persona junkie. However, I ran into one snag in hacking away at a bit of a
      background story. How does one figure in ranks? The SCA is quite the tiered society
      which makes saying, "my father did such and such" kind of unusual.
      I am a girl so I could say I'm a handmaiden to some girl whose father is such and
      such, but even that sounds like you're insinuating rank (fifth rank at least), which is
      given to you by the heads of your local SCA.
      Considering those with fifth rank and above had their jobs appointed by the
      Emperor, could one say they (or for me, my father) are of the sixth or below rank?
      Maybe an assistant Governor (even thought that sounds like you are "landed")...
      Any tips on how to play this safe? I know intense persona play doesn't come up that
      often but it would be fun to have something like this established...
      Thanks.

      p.s. the site I was using for reference is a link from Sengoku Daimyo: http://
      www.albany.edu/eas/205/rank%20chart.htm
    • Solveig
      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Are you interested in the Heian period? If you are interested in the Heian period, then you can start out with something
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 1, 2005
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        Noble Cousin!

        Greetings from Solveig! Are you interested in the Heian period? If
        you are interested in the Heian period, then you can start out with
        something nice and safe like rank 9. These do not require appointment
        by the emperor and correspond fairly well to the minimum presumptive
        level allowed to all members. Your father's rank is somewhat
        separable from your own step on the ladder. As a female, you are a
        vehicle for advancement for your family.
        --

        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar

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      • booknerd9
        Thank you. I am interested in Heian, though I joke to myself, love the Heian, only enough fabric and funds for Kamakura. Anyway, some of the questions on the
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 1, 2005
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          Thank you. I am interested in Heian, though I joke to myself, "love the Heian, only
          enough fabric and funds for Kamakura." Anyway, some of the questions on the little
          persona worksheet (though I'm not bound to answer them, of course, lol) are what
          my persona's father and mother do. To write that daddy is such and such rank
          seems a bit .... even though it'll never come up. Someone is more likely to ask me
          what my real father does, as opposed to Nori's. (:
          E




          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig <nostrand@a...> wrote:
          > Noble Cousin!
          >
          > Greetings from Solveig! Are you interested in the Heian period? If
          > you are interested in the Heian period, then you can start out with
          > something nice and safe like rank 9. These do not require appointment
          > by the emperor and correspond fairly well to the minimum presumptive
          > level allowed to all members. Your father's rank is somewhat
          > separable from your own step on the ladder. As a female, you are a
          > vehicle for advancement for your family.
          > --
        • sigrune@aol.com
          Hello, Solvieg is quite right, rank is a touchy thing in the SCA and realy, well it should be. People work hard to advance, (not nessisarily their motivation,
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 3, 2005
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            Hello,

            Solvieg is quite right, rank is a touchy thing in the SCA and realy, well it should be. People work hard to advance, (not nessisarily their motivation, but hard work goes into what translates as rank,) and the awards are their reward for their dilligence, and often assistance to help others learn. To have someone falsly claim rank bellittles the honor bestowed on the intended.

            That being said, when you discuss your persona one could indeed say "my father, Nani-nani-dono, is the Director/Advisor/Functionary of (insert obscure bureau here)"
            In a japanese context if a person is discussing your family with you, they brobably want to know exactly what it is your father does to see how upwardly (or downwardly) mobile your family is and also weither you are of the right, or the left.
            By stating the office of your father, you indicate by suggestion his rank.

            Why this way should be ok and won't ruffle feathers, is that even among the most well versed of us here, I doubt there is more than 3 people that could hear a name and tell you the corresponding rank. 95% or more of SCA people will have no clue what you are talking about and just nod their heads and say, "ahh". In this manner you will not offend or be presuptuous.

            Also the chart you found on the albany.edu site, very interesting my friend and mentor is the one who coded the original, might be a "pirate" copy.
            The original is here: http://modzer0.cs.uaf.edu/~logan/JapaneseHistory/index.php
            follow the link to the Ritsu-ryo Chart.

            -Takeda Sanjuichiro Akimasa
          • makiwara_no_yetsuko
            ... Nobody s ever asked me yet. ;- M.
            Message 5 of 9 , Apr 3, 2005
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              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "booknerd9" <Booknerd9@y...> wrote:
              > To write that daddy is such and such rank
              > seems a bit .... even though it'll never come up.

              Nobody's ever asked me yet. ;->

              M.
            • booknerd9
              ... Nani-nani-dono, is the Director/Advisor/Functionary of (insert obscure bureau here) ... brobably want to know exactly what it is your father does to see
              Message 6 of 9 , Apr 3, 2005
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                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, sigrune@a... wrote:
                ....
                > That being said, when you discuss your persona one could indeed say "my father,
                Nani-nani-dono, is the Director/Advisor/Functionary of (insert obscure bureau
                here)"
                > In a japanese context if a person is discussing your family with you, they
                brobably want to know exactly what it is your father does to see how upwardly (or
                downwardly) mobile your family is and also weither you are of the right, or the left.
                > By stating the office of your father, you indicate by suggestion his rank.
                >
                .....
                > Also the chart you found on the albany.edu site, very interesting my friend and
                mentor is the one who coded the original, might be a "pirate" copy.
                > The original is here: http://modzer0.cs.uaf.edu/~logan/JapaneseHistory/
                index.php
                > follow the link to the Ritsu-ryo Chart.
                >
                > -Takeda Sanjuichiro Akimasa

                Wow! That chart is really nifty and quite easy to navigate, the one online is terribly
                hard to read unless you have a dual monitor set-up or something. (: Thank you.
              • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                ... Nope, it is actually the other way around, I believe. We have used that chart, along with other sources, to compile one that we could read, along with
                Message 7 of 9 , Apr 3, 2005
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                  On Apr 3, 2005 8:06 AM, sigrune@... <sigrune@...> wrote:

                  > Why this way should be ok and won't ruffle feathers, is that even among the
                  > most well versed of us here, I doubt there is more than 3 people that could
                  > hear a name and tell you the corresponding rank. 95% or more of SCA people
                  > will have no clue what you are talking about and just nod their heads and
                  > say, "ahh". In this manner you will not offend or be presuptuous.
                  >
                  > Also the chart you found on the albany.edu site, very interesting my friend
                  > and mentor is the one who coded the original, might be a "pirate" copy.
                  > The original is here:
                  > http://modzer0.cs.uaf.edu/~logan/JapaneseHistory/index.php
                  > follow the link to the Ritsu-ryo Chart.

                  Nope, it is actually the other way around, I believe. We have used
                  that chart, along with other sources, to compile one that we could
                  read, along with other information such as the pronunciations, etc.
                  The formatting in Excel was done by Abe no Kotori. The actual
                  provenance is given at the bottom of the chart.

                  I'd love to take credit for it beyond that, but can't. I plan to do
                  more work to break out the upper and lower as well as senior and
                  junior, once I get a chance.
                  The accompanying 'Rank and Postion' list
                  (http://modzer0.cs.uaf.edu/~logan/JapaneseHistory/documentation/Rank-Position.doc)
                  is what we really added, with a list of positions arranged by rank, so
                  that if you are X rank you can figure out what you would do.


                  -Ii
                • Solveig
                  Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Actually, the daughters of the lower kuge were rather prolific writers. Don t fret about descending from the lower kuge,
                  Message 8 of 9 , Apr 3, 2005
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                    Noble Cousin!

                    Greetings from Solveig! Actually, the daughters of the lower kuge
                    were rather prolific writers. Don't fret about descending from the
                    lower kuge, you get to write wonderful diaries and novels complaining
                    about being posted to the provinces and other stuff. You can talk
                    about how you hope that your father will be promoted, you can talk
                    about how your father will be appointed to office, you can talk about
                    that attractivce captain of the gate guards, but how your father
                    wants you to marry someone of higher rank.
                    --

                    Your Humble Servant
                    Solveig Throndardottir
                    Amateur Scholar

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                    | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                    | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                    | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
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                  • Solveig
                    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... The point is very well taken. Basically, if you claim that your father is sixth rank or lower, you are safe as that
                    Message 9 of 9 , Apr 3, 2005
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                      Noble Cousin!

                      Greetings from Solveig!

                      >That being said, when you discuss your persona one could indeed say
                      >"my father, Nani-nani-dono, is the Director/Advisor/Functionary of
                      >(insert obscure bureau here)"
                      >In a japanese context if a person is discussing your family with
                      >you, they brobably want to know exactly what it is your father does
                      >to see how upwardly (or downwardly) mobile your family is and also
                      >weither you are of the right, or the left.
                      >By stating the office of your father, you indicate by suggestion his rank.

                      The point is very well taken. Basically, if you claim that your
                      father is sixth rank or lower, you are safe as that while that sort
                      of rank makes you elligible for service, it doesn't automatically
                      give you much above rank nine which is the bottom of the kuge. It
                      also makes your father eligible for service as a minor provinical
                      governor or much more adventurously as a deputy governor. The deputy
                      governors were much more likely to be stuck with the job of actually
                      living in the provinces which allows you to be living someplace other
                      than Heiankyou.
                      --

                      Your Humble Servant
                      Solveig Throndardottir
                      Amateur Scholar

                      +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                      | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                      | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                      | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                      +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                      | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to the |
                      | trash by my email filters. |
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