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green and yellow dyes?

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  • michelle0097217
    Greetings! I just started my indigo fermenting, and a friend wants an outfit out of green hemp. I thought that I would dye the fabric yellow, most likely with
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 31, 2005
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      Greetings!

      I just started my indigo fermenting, and a friend wants an outfit out
      of green hemp. I thought that I would dye the fabric yellow, most
      likely with safflower, then overdye with indigo.

      I read Kass McGann's experience with benihana, but it looks like that
      the yellow color doesn't stick to cellulosic fibers. Does anyone have
      any experience with using benihana?

      The one Japanese source I have (Shibori by Wada) mentions a bark from
      a species called Phellodendron aurense Rupr.(kihada) or a reed called
      kariyasu. Kariyasu is not available in the US, according to Wada.

      Does anyone have any experience with Phellodendron or can quote me a
      source or procedure for use?

      Thanks in advance,

      Thessaliad
    • Solveig
      Hachijo Kariyasu (Miscanthus tinctorius) SYNONYM(S) : Erianthus tinctorius Sieb. ex Steud., Saccharum tinctorium Steud. CHINESE : Qing mao. ENGLISH : Dyeing
      Message 2 of 12 , Mar 31, 2005
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        Hachijo Kariyasu"(Miscanthus tinctorius)
        SYNONYM(S) : Erianthus tinctorius Sieb. ex Steud., Saccharum tinctorium Steud.

        CHINESE : Qing mao.

        ENGLISH : Dyeing silver grass.

        FRENCH : Miscanthus des teinturiers.

        Miscanthus tinctorius nanus variegatus is well worth close inspection
        as the colouration of the various parts of the flower are stunning.
        A useful plant in a patio pot or planted beside a pond to give a
        compact Oriental look,
        The image was taken using the FV10D and it's own light source. The
        background was originally slightly confused so I used Paintshop Pro
        to replace the green background with black.

        http://www.grasses.co.uk/mistinct.jpg

        The plant appears to be a relative of sugarcane.

        Another plant that shows up a lot in searches is the safflower plant

        CATI CARTH Carthamus 326 Asteraceae
        Carthamus tinctorius L. safflower
        --

        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar

        +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
        | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
        | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
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      • Audrey Bergeron-Morin
        ... I think Kass is right. Someone I know wanted to try dyeing linen with saffron, but they didn t want to spend too much money and bought cheap saffron .
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 31, 2005
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          > I read Kass McGann's experience with benihana, but it looks like that
          > the yellow color doesn't stick to cellulosic fibers. Does anyone have
          > any experience with using benihana?

          I think Kass is right. Someone I know wanted to try dyeing linen with
          saffron, but they didn't want to spend too much money and bought "cheap
          saffron". You've probably guessed it wasn't saffron at all, but safflower,
          and the dye just wouldn't take at all on linen. It ended up a pale, pale
          cream colour. The dye just washes out. What I don't know is if the use of a
          mordant or another process would change that.
        • michelle0097217
          ... You ve probably guessed it wasn t saffron at all, but safflower, ... pale ... use of a ... If the Japanese used it as a source for yellow, I m hoping that
          Message 4 of 12 , Apr 1, 2005
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            > I think Kass is right. <snip>
            You've probably guessed it wasn't saffron at all, but safflower,
            > and the dye just wouldn't take at all on linen. It ended up a pale,
            pale
            > cream colour. The dye just washes out. What I don't know is if the
            use of a
            > mordant or another process would change that.

            If the Japanese used it as a source for yellow, I'm hoping that they
            had a process to marry it to hemp, or did they use the alternative dye
            plants, (kariyasu, kihada) to provide yellow?

            Thanks,

            Thessaliad
          • makiwara_no_yetsuko
            ... Kosode: 16th-19th Century Textiles from the Nomura Collection by Amanda Mayer Stinchecum has a section in the back on dye plants. I get the feeling that
            Message 5 of 12 , Apr 1, 2005
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              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Audrey Bergeron-Morin"
              <audreybmorin3@h...> wrote:
              > > I read Kass McGann's experience with benihana, but it looks like that
              > > the yellow color doesn't stick to cellulosic fibers. Does anyone have
              > > any experience with using benihana?

              "Kosode: 16th-19th Century Textiles from the Nomura Collection" by
              Amanda Mayer Stinchecum has a section in the back on dye plants.

              I get the feeling that benibana doesn't stick well to much of
              anything. Benibana (Carthamus tinctorius or safflower)is light
              sensitive and depending on what you do with it will produce yellow,
              pinks and reds (add alkali, then neutralize with vinegar), lavender if
              top dyed with indigo. If you wring it out in water after dyeing, the
              yellow leaches right out.

              The cones, wood or bark of Yashabushi (Alnus firma Sieb. et. Zucc. a
              type of alder) will produce a golden yellow when boiled in water and
              mordanted with ash lye. You can deepen it to shades of brown or even
              black by adding repeated dips in iron. It is described as light fast
              and us described as "rubbed into linen to dye commoners' clothing
              brown" during the Nara period.

              Makiwara
            • Date Saburou Yukiie
              Greetings all - Once again I am at it, and have just posted a thing I hope will be usefull. I made a chart that hopefully people can cut and paste from, with
              Message 6 of 12 , Apr 1, 2005
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                Greetings all -
                Once again I am at it, and have just posted a thing I hope will be
                usefull.
                I made a chart that hopefully people can cut and paste from, with
                hiragana, katakana, and keyboard combinations on a Windows machine that
                let you type those goofy vowels with macrons over them.

                I will be adding Mac keyboards in the very near future.

                Again, the chart is in UTF-8 coding, which should work for most people,
                and you can reach it at:

                http://www.kabutographics.com in the projects section.

                If needed, I will post alternate coded versions...but we should be
                ok...UTF-8 is W3C compliant.

                Hope it is usefull.

                Date
              • Solveig
                Date Dono! Greetings from Solveig! ... I assume that you mean circumflex not macron. Circumflex belongs to most character sets, but macron does not. I believe
                Message 7 of 12 , Apr 1, 2005
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                  Date Dono!

                  Greetings from Solveig!

                  >I made a chart that hopefully people can cut and paste from, with
                  >hiragana, katakana, and keyboard combinations on a Windows machine that
                  >let you type those goofy vowels with macrons over them.

                  I assume that you mean circumflex not macron.
                  Circumflex belongs to most character sets, but
                  macron does not. I believe that macrons may be
                  available if you are using unicode. While unicode
                  is built into recent operating systems, a lot of
                  folks are still using pre-unicode operating
                  systems. In deference to those with older
                  software, I urge you not to macrons in email. You
                  can embed them in pdf files all you want. Please
                  use circumflex instead.

                  On a macintosh, a circumflex is placed over a
                  vowel by holding down the [option] and [i] keys
                  and then after releasing them typing the letter.
                  Thus, û is produced by simultaneously typing
                  [option] and [i] followed by a [u]. (Note. The
                  square brackets are there to make them look like
                  key caps.)

                  Thus, one can type â, ê, ii, ô, û and make
                  Hepburn and all of those Anglo-American Japan
                  scholars happy. They get quite petulent when you
                  don't use Hepburn. However, the Japanese do not,
                  in general, use Hepburn. Japanese mostly do
                  "wapuro Japanese" at the moment. This makes
                  Anglo-American Japan scholars go appoplectic, but
                  they can pout all they like, the Japanese
                  language does ultimately belong to the Japanese.
                  (Incidentally, my professor at the University of
                  Toronto once fumed about what he called "wapuro
                  Japanese" about ten years ago, but he can not
                  hold back the sea of Japanese usage.)

                  I learned wapuro Japanese in Japan via using it
                  to type Japanese into computers for various
                  work-related and personal purposes. At the time,
                  some entry systems were really difficult. Canon
                  had one of the best and NEC one of the worst. My
                  Sharp MZ-2500 had a system almost as good as the
                  Canon system. Apple's kotoeri is somewhat similar
                  to these sytems.
                  --

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar

                  +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                  | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                  | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                  +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to the |
                  | trash by my email filters. |
                  +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                • Audrey Bergeron-Morin
                  ... If I believe Kass site, yellow was also obtained from gardenia hulls and bark of the Amur cork tree . I don t know if any of those works on hemp, or
                  Message 8 of 12 , Apr 1, 2005
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                    >> I think Kass is right. <snip>
                    > You've probably guessed it wasn't saffron at all, but safflower,
                    >> and the dye just wouldn't take at all on linen. It ended up a pale,
                    > pale
                    >> cream colour. The dye just washes out. What I don't know is if the
                    > use of a
                    >> mordant or another process would change that.
                    >
                    > If the Japanese used it as a source for yellow, I'm hoping that they
                    > had a process to marry it to hemp, or did they use the alternative dye
                    > plants, (kariyasu, kihada) to provide yellow?

                    If I believe Kass' site, yellow was also obtained "from gardenia hulls and
                    bark of the Amur cork tree". I don't know if any of those works on hemp, or
                    cotton for that matter.
                  • James Eckman
                    ... Interesting, but nowadays I never see Romaji with anything strange but dashes for long vowels sometimes. Several of my Japanese friends use English
                    Message 9 of 12 , Apr 1, 2005
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                      >
                      >
                      > From: "Date Saburou Yukiie" <kabuto@...> Again, the chart
                      > is in UTF-8 coding, which should work for most people, and you can
                      > reach it at: http://www.kabutographics.com in the projects section. If
                      > needed, I will post alternate coded versions...but we should be
                      > ok...UTF-8 is W3C compliant. Hope it is usefull.
                      >
                      Interesting, but nowadays I never see Romaji with anything strange but
                      dashes for long vowels sometimes. Several of my Japanese friends use
                      English keyboards, so they type two characters, ka for the one kana. The
                      few times they use Romaji, I think they just turn off the convert
                      function! If your going to put goofy characters in e-mails, why not just
                      send the actual kana? Or just do the wapuro thing and type your long
                      vowels twice?

                      P.S. For some reason, my UTF-8 font won't display macrons!

                      > Subject: Re: Octopus Hands Greetings from Solveig!
                      >
                      >I assume that you mean circumflex not macron.
                      >Circumflex belongs to most character sets, but
                      >macron does not.
                      >
                      Seems to be true, note above comment.

                      >I believe that macrons may be available if you are using unicode. While unicode is built into recent operating systems, a lot of folks are still using pre-unicode operating systems.
                      >
                      Windows ME, pre-unicode :( Makes Open office a bit tougher to use,
                      though there is a new! DLL that's supposed to put Unicode compatibility
                      on 98 and ME. If there's interest I can let you know how it comes out.

                      >Thus, one can type â, ê, ii, ô, û and make
                      >Hepburn and all of those Anglo-American Japan
                      >scholars happy. They get quite petulent when you
                      >don't use Hepburn. However, the Japanese do not,
                      >in general, use Hepburn. Japanese mostly do
                      >"wapuro Japanese" at the moment. This makes
                      >Anglo-American Japan scholars go appoplectic, but
                      >they can pout all they like, the Japanese
                      >language does ultimately belong to the Japanese.
                      >
                      >
                      I agree!!! Lucky I'm not in academia so I can ignore that silliness
                      along with the 'official' Japanese method as well.

                      >I learned wapuro Japanese in Japan via using it
                      >to type Japanese into computers for various
                      >work-related and personal purposes. At the time,
                      >some entry systems were really difficult.
                      >
                      Kindly put indeed, systems from hell come to mind. But then try to find
                      a setting in Windows XP without using Google. Software people shouldn't
                      be trusted with user interface design.

                      Jim Eckman
                    • Date Saburou Yukiie
                      James, Everything you and Solvieg said is true - I just am posting a possible resource for people to use in what ever documents they want, if they can find it
                      Message 10 of 12 , Apr 2, 2005
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                        James,
                        Everything you and Solvieg said is true - I just am posting a
                        possible resource for people to use in what ever documents they want,
                        if they can find it useful.
                        I do not use the special coding in e-mails, as e-mail clients tend to
                        be the most unstable of critters - I use the Wapuro way.

                        I also realize that there are many different codings, and your usage
                        may vary, if even at all. Some people's browsers are not set up to
                        read Japanese or unicode...others do not have fonts, etc. This I
                        cannot help, of course.

                        Personally, I love the Kotoeri that Mac uses - especially the new and
                        elegant Panther OS...I like it much better than the Windows Japanese
                        IME, which is functional at best, if set up right...and a bear if not.

                        The pages I put up are a set of tools - that is all - not the be-all-
                        end-all swiss army web pages of web pages...but perhaps even if one
                        forgets a kana, or whaever...it is there to look at.

                        I do a lot of work with Chinese also, and the extra characters with
                        the goofies on top (copy-righted technical term) are useful there.
                        Thus their inclusion.

                        Take Care.
                        Date Saburou Yukiie
                        Yama Kaminari Ryu


                        > Interesting, but nowadays I never see Romaji with anything strange
                        but
                        > dashes for long vowels sometimes. Several of my Japanese friends
                        use
                        > English keyboards, so they type two characters, ka for the one
                        kana. The
                        > few times they use Romaji, I think they just turn off the convert
                        > function! If your going to put goofy characters in e-mails, why not
                        just
                        > send the actual kana? Or just do the wapuro thing and type your
                        long
                        > vowels twice?
                        >
                        > P.S. For some reason, my UTF-8 font won't display macrons!
                        >
                        > > Subject: Re: Octopus Hands Greetings from Solveig!
                        > >
                        > >I assume that you mean circumflex not macron.
                        > >Circumflex belongs to most character sets, but
                        > >macron does not.
                        > >
                        > Seems to be true, note above comment.
                        >
                        > >I believe that macrons may be available if you are using unicode.
                        While unicode is built into recent operating systems, a lot of folks
                        are still using pre-unicode operating systems.
                        > >
                        > Windows ME, pre-unicode :( Makes Open office a bit tougher to use,
                        > though there is a new! DLL that's supposed to put Unicode
                        compatibility
                        > on 98 and ME. If there's interest I can let you know how it comes
                        out.
                        >
                        > >Thus, one can type â, ê, ii, ô, û and make
                        > >Hepburn and all of those Anglo-American Japan
                        > >scholars happy. They get quite petulent when you
                        > >don't use Hepburn. However, the Japanese do not,
                        > >in general, use Hepburn. Japanese mostly do
                        > >"wapuro Japanese" at the moment. This makes
                        > >Anglo-American Japan scholars go appoplectic, but
                        > >they can pout all they like, the Japanese
                        > >language does ultimately belong to the Japanese.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > I agree!!! Lucky I'm not in academia so I can ignore that silliness
                        > along with the 'official' Japanese method as well.
                        >
                        > >I learned wapuro Japanese in Japan via using it
                        > >to type Japanese into computers for various
                        > >work-related and personal purposes. At the time,
                        > >some entry systems were really difficult.
                        > >
                        > Kindly put indeed, systems from hell come to mind. But then try to
                        find
                        > a setting in Windows XP without using Google. Software people
                        shouldn't
                        > be trusted with user interface design.
                        >
                        > Jim Eckman
                      • Solveig
                        Date Dono! Greetings from Solveig! ... I m skipping a generation of MacOS. I am going directly from Jaguar to Tiger. Hmm. I just realized that I was born in
                        Message 11 of 12 , Apr 3, 2005
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                          Date Dono!

                          Greetings from Solveig!

                          >Personally, I love the Kotoeri that Mac uses - especially the new and
                          >elegant Panther OS...I like it much better than the Windows Japanese
                          >IME, which is functional at best, if set up right...and a bear if not.

                          I'm skipping a generation of MacOS. I am going directly from Jaguar
                          to Tiger. Hmm. I just realized that I was born in the year of the
                          tiger, so I guess that it makes sense that I would buy tiger.

                          >I do a lot of work with Chinese also, and the extra characters with
                          >the goofies on top (copy-righted technical term) are useful there.
                          >Thus their inclusion.

                          You can not copyright technical terms. You may be able to trademark
                          them, but you can not copyright them. So just stick an (R) or (TM)
                          after it, and tell us what it is called.
                          --

                          Your Humble Servant
                          Solveig Throndardottir
                          Amateur Scholar

                          +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                          | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                          | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                          +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to the |
                          | trash by my email filters. |
                          +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                        • Date Saburou Yukiie
                          ... I just love you, Solveig! Glad you are on Our Side! Date (PS:With the amount of artwork I produce, you may be assured I know about copyright, and
                          Message 12 of 12 , Apr 3, 2005
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                            > >I do a lot of work with Chinese also, and the extra characters with
                            > >the goofies on top (copy-righted technical term) are useful there.
                            > >Thus their inclusion.
                            >
                            > You can not copyright technical terms. You may be able to trademark
                            > them, but you can not copyright them. So just stick an (R) or (TM)
                            > after it, and tell us what it is called.
                            > --
                            >
                            > Your Humble Servant
                            > Solveig Throndardottir
                            > Amateur Scholar
                            >


                            I just love you, Solveig! Glad you are on "Our Side!"

                            Date

                            (PS:With the amount of artwork I produce, you may be assured I know
                            about copyright, and trademarking and such...I did not expect to get
                            taken literally! :-) )
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