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Re: Name help

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  • Heidi Lyn
    ... I think the more I read about Japanese names, the more confused I become, but I think its because we are generally not talking about my time period. I
    Message 1 of 26 , Mar 1, 2005
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      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig <nostrand@a...> wrote:
      > Noble Couisin!
      >
      > Greetings from Solveig! According to Jeffery Mass, kuge and buke
      > women from the late Heian and Early Kamakura period tended to have
      > names of the form:
      >
      > <uji name> <personal name>
      >
      > You can insert a -no- between the two names during use, but this -no- is not
      > generally written. There is only a restricted collection of uji names to choose
      > from. During the late Heian, the most prolific and most flexible is probably
      > Fujiwara, but there are many others to choose from. Late Heian women frequently
      > had personal names ending in -ko when usining native kun'yomi readings. There
      > are other possibilities.

      I think the more I read about Japanese names, the more confused I become, but I think its
      because we are generally not talking about my time period. I would greatly appreciate a
      more knowledgable person letting me know if any (or all of) this dicussion on female
      names applies to the late Muromachi/ early Momoyama

      Thanks so much!
      Tsukime
    • Solveig
      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Late Muromachi is different. The new fashion in women s given names uses an O- construction. And, I believe that
      Message 2 of 26 , Mar 1, 2005
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        Noble Cousin!

        Greetings from Solveig!

        Late Muromachi is different. The new fashion in women's given names uses an
        O-<theme> construction. And, I believe that the name is combined with the
        family (more accurately residence) name. The order is what you would expect,
        the given name is last.
        --

        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar

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        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
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      • sigrune@aol.com
        Tsuki-hime, I do not have the books in front of me (I am at work) but I belive that tsuki-me (moon woman)is a fine personal name for the era (1570-1580) that
        Message 3 of 26 , Mar 1, 2005
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          Tsuki-hime,

          I do not have the books in front of me (I am at work) but I belive that "tsuki-me" (moon woman)is a fine personal name for the era (1570-1580) that you are targeting. You would need to check if "tsuki" is the appropriate character/pronunciation for it though.

          Japanese naming practices at first glance can be very confusing, I beleive the main cause for it is the huge difference in the words and forms of words used. European derived languages have a greater similarity, such as Iustinos = Justinos - the modern Justin, or Mikhail = Mikal = Michael
          (As a personal aside I am begining to think that "Saburou" is the Japanese SCA equivilent to "Bob" or "John")

          As far as knowledgeable people go, Lady Solvieg is perhapse one of the most learned and studied people on this list in the realm of Japanese names. As a matter of fact, it can be said with accuracy that she is the one who "Wrote the book" that the College of Heralds uses to check period Japanese names against. (I do not know if she is still or ever was a commenting member of the CoH herself, but I am sure she could give you advice to use on the process.)

          In regards to your question not being answered, I belive your thread got hijacked. There are so many posts with the subject "nani-nani-Name Help/Request-nani-nani" that it is easy for people to loose track of which thread is which.

          Things that would go towards consideration besides the date of your persona, is class, wealth within the class, area/region of Japan, if you had any assumed names as well, if you had taken vows to become a nun, your marital status, and possibly if you held any titles but those are not usualy registered.

          YIS
          Takeda Sanjuichiro Akimasa
        • Maria
          ... I do have a question about that. In watching some Japanese dramas/movies set in the Edo period, there seemed to be a habit where women s names would have
          Message 4 of 26 , Mar 1, 2005
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            Solveig wrote:

            >
            > Late Muromachi is different. The new fashion in women's given names
            > uses an
            > O-<theme> construction. And, I believe that the name is combined with the
            > family (more accurately residence) name. The order is what you would
            > expect,
            > the given name is last.


            I do have a question about that. In watching some Japanese
            dramas/movies set in the Edo period, there seemed to be a habit where
            women's names would have the O- added to the front as a sign of respect
            (or affection??). For example, a girl named Masu was called Masu-san or
            Masu-chan by most people, but O-Masu by a guy who admired her. Or say,
            the lord's sister, Ichi, would be referred to as O-Ichi, although the
            subtitled hiragana when they introduced her simply said "Ichi". What
            was the rules of that usage, and when did that start? Is it within SCA
            period?

            A second question also: it seems like the Kyoto folk kept saying "-han"
            when the Edo people were saying "-san". Was I mishearing things, or is
            that a regional variation? (Note: didn't hear the Osaka folk saying
            "-han" so I didn't think it was Kansai-ben). When did "-san" come into
            usage? I know "-dono" and "-sama" were in use for the Good People, but
            was "-san" being used amongst the commoners at an earlier time?

            Writing from my home overlooking the Great River,

            Ki no Torahime
          • Solveig
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Late Muromachi is the sixteenth century. If I was being more exact, I would have mentioned the azuchi-momoyama period.
            Message 5 of 26 , Mar 2, 2005
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              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig! Late Muromachi is the sixteenth century. If I was being
              more exact, I would have mentioned the azuchi-momoyama period.

              >I do have a question about that. In watching some Japanese
              >dramas/movies set in the Edo period, there seemed to be a habit where
              >women's names would have the O- added to the front as a sign of respect
              >(or affection??). For example, a girl named Masu was called Masu-san or
              >Masu-chan by most people, but O-Masu by a guy who admired her. Or say,
              >the lord's sister, Ichi, would be referred to as O-Ichi, although the
              >subtitled hiragana when they introduced her simply said "Ichi". What
              >was the rules of that usage, and when did that start? Is it within SCA
              >period?

              This gets a bit messy. You need to understand that dropping name parts is
              an easy way to make nick-names. -san is a fairly recent honourific.
              Technically,
              the O- is also an honourific, but it functions more as part of the name. This
              busines about O- pretty much dissappeared in the early Meiji period. Many
              years ago there was a Taiga drama called O-?? I forget her name at the moment.
              Regardless, she is born sometime around the Meiji Restoration and makes up
              to sometime around Taiheiyou Sensou.

              >A second question also: it seems like the Kyoto folk kept saying "-han"
              >when the Edo people were saying "-san". Was I mishearing things, or is
              >that a regional variation?

              Kansai-ben (Osaka area dialect) is supposed to be softer sounding than
              Kantou-ben (Toukyou area dialect). Kyouto is supposed to pretty much
              have its own distinctive women's speech. However, except when explicitly
              writing dialogue, you will see Kansai people writing -san.

              >(Note: didn't hear the Osaka folk saying
              >"-han" so I didn't think it was Kansai-ben). When did "-san" come into
              >usage? I know "-dono" and "-sama" were in use for the Good People, but
              >was "-san" being used amongst the commoners at an earlier time?

              Knowing when -san came in may be difificult. However, I believe that it is
              simply an informal variant on -sama. You see -sama as early as the late
              Muromachi, but I think that is about the earliest I have seen it and only
              rarely in those cases. The same document may show several people with
              different honourifics attached to the ends of their names. Just to complicate
              things, you can also see the kanji for uji attached to peoples names. This is
              fairly common in newspapers. In modern Japan, you encounter -<sama>
              -<dono> and -<uji> fairly frequently. Here I wrote forms by which you can
              easily tell which character is being written, I am not saying that they are
              read in this way when used as honourifics.
              --

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar

              +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
              | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
              | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
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              | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to the |
              | trash by my email filters. |
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            • elwenaduialloth
              Hey all. I m somewhat new to the SCA and recently a few friends and I have decided to do Japanese personas as a group. First of all, would we be able to all
              Message 6 of 26 , Mar 24, 2008
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                Hey all. I'm somewhat new to the SCA and recently a few friends and I
                have decided to do Japanese personas as a group. First of all, would
                we be able to all take the same clan name and would we have to do
                anything special to get that passed? Second of all, we have some ideas
                for names that we came up with based on the information in "An Online
                Japanese Miscellany" and I would like some feedback on whether they are
                viable or not. The clan name is Yashiro. The full names in question
                are Yashiro Ryuutarou Katsuaki, Yashiro Ryuuzaburou Harutoshi, and
                Yashiro Hana, although I'm a lot less certain about the female name
                structure than the males. Am I just way off base with this or are
                these workable? We are currently looking at Muromachi period, early to
                mid 1500s. Thank you so much.

                ~Renee
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