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Re: Name help

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  • Mara
    I have picked the Heian time period. I was thinking merchant just because I do not feel very royal most of the time. My main interest in Japanese culture is
    Message 1 of 26 , Feb 25, 2005
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      I have picked the Heian time period. I was thinking merchant just
      because I do not feel very "royal" most of the time. My main
      interest in Japanese culture is language and the arts. I suppose
      that I can be royal instead of merchant for my personal interests,
      but I was thinking that maybe a merchant class woman would not have
      to adhere to as strict rules or expectations.

      -Mara

      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig <nostrand@a...> wrote:
      > I assume that you mean merchant class not artisan class. There is
      a difference.
      > Now what you need to do is limit the time period. Per-1600 covers
      a LOT of
      > cultural and linguistic territory.
    • Solveig
      Noble Cousin! Greeting from Solveig! ... Noo nooo nooooo! Adherence to rules or expecations is something that is pretty standard in traditional societies
      Message 2 of 26 , Feb 25, 2005
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        Noble Cousin!

        Greeting from Solveig!
        >I have picked the Heian time period. I was thinking merchant just
        >because I do not feel very "royal" most of the time. My main
        >interest in Japanese culture is language and the arts. I suppose
        >that I can be royal instead of merchant for my personal interests,
        >but I was thinking that maybe a merchant class woman would not have
        >to adhere to as strict rules or expectations.
        Noo nooo nooooo! Adherence to rules or expecations is something that
        is pretty standard in traditional societies although you may find a number
        of well worn back doors for people who can not quite fit into cultural
        stereotypes. If anything, rich and powerful people can generally get away
        with more than the lower middle class. If you want to go for a woman of
        the world type of approach to things, then you should probably go for
        the lower kuge or upper buke. These are the women who produced and
        devoured bodice rippers such as Genji. They also did interesting things
        such as fighting in battles and all sorts of stuff. Further, they owned
        property and could do so in preference to their brothers. Basically, you
        simply want to pick a good time period and be up enough in the world
        that you can do stuff.
        --

        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar

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      • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
        ... Out of my head! This is exactly what I was trying to get down--lower-upper class is more free than upper-lower class. -Ii
        Message 3 of 26 , Feb 25, 2005
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          On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 19:39:46 -0500, Solveig <nostrand@...> wrote:

          > Noo nooo nooooo! Adherence to rules or expecations is something that
          > is pretty standard in traditional societies although you may find a number
          > of well worn back doors for people who can not quite fit into cultural
          > stereotypes. If anything, rich and powerful people can generally get away

          Out of my head!

          This is exactly what I was trying to get down--lower-upper class is
          more free than upper-lower class.

          -Ii
        • Mara
          Thank you for that advice on what class would have more freedom. Sometimes it is difficult to try to put myself in an ancient frame of mind versus thinking
          Message 4 of 26 , Feb 27, 2005
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            Thank you for that advice on what class would have more freedom.
            Sometimes it is difficult to try to put myself in an ancient frame
            of mind versus thinking about what I know about modern women.

            So what is the best way to go about getting a name that I like and
            that will pass?

            > If you want to go for a woman of
            > the world type of approach to things, then you should probably go
            for
            > the lower kuge or upper buke.
          • Solveig
            Noble Couisin! Greetings from Solveig! According to Jeffery Mass, kuge and buke women from the late Heian and Early Kamakura period tended to have names of the
            Message 5 of 26 , Feb 27, 2005
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              Noble Couisin!

              Greetings from Solveig! According to Jeffery Mass, kuge and buke
              women from the late Heian and Early Kamakura period tended to have
              names of the form:

              <uji name> <personal name>

              You can insert a -no- between the two names during use, but this -no- is not
              generally written. There is only a restricted collection of uji names to choose
              from. During the late Heian, the most prolific and most flexible is probably
              Fujiwara, but there are many others to choose from. Late Heian women frequently
              had personal names ending in -ko when usining native kun'yomi readings. There
              are other possibilities.
              --

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar

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              | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
              | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
              | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
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            • Heidi Lyn
              ... I think the more I read about Japanese names, the more confused I become, but I think its because we are generally not talking about my time period. I
              Message 6 of 26 , Mar 1, 2005
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                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig <nostrand@a...> wrote:
                > Noble Couisin!
                >
                > Greetings from Solveig! According to Jeffery Mass, kuge and buke
                > women from the late Heian and Early Kamakura period tended to have
                > names of the form:
                >
                > <uji name> <personal name>
                >
                > You can insert a -no- between the two names during use, but this -no- is not
                > generally written. There is only a restricted collection of uji names to choose
                > from. During the late Heian, the most prolific and most flexible is probably
                > Fujiwara, but there are many others to choose from. Late Heian women frequently
                > had personal names ending in -ko when usining native kun'yomi readings. There
                > are other possibilities.

                I think the more I read about Japanese names, the more confused I become, but I think its
                because we are generally not talking about my time period. I would greatly appreciate a
                more knowledgable person letting me know if any (or all of) this dicussion on female
                names applies to the late Muromachi/ early Momoyama

                Thanks so much!
                Tsukime
              • Solveig
                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Late Muromachi is different. The new fashion in women s given names uses an O- construction. And, I believe that
                Message 7 of 26 , Mar 1, 2005
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                  Noble Cousin!

                  Greetings from Solveig!

                  Late Muromachi is different. The new fashion in women's given names uses an
                  O-<theme> construction. And, I believe that the name is combined with the
                  family (more accurately residence) name. The order is what you would expect,
                  the given name is last.
                  --

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar

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                  | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                  | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
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                • sigrune@aol.com
                  Tsuki-hime, I do not have the books in front of me (I am at work) but I belive that tsuki-me (moon woman)is a fine personal name for the era (1570-1580) that
                  Message 8 of 26 , Mar 1, 2005
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                    Tsuki-hime,

                    I do not have the books in front of me (I am at work) but I belive that "tsuki-me" (moon woman)is a fine personal name for the era (1570-1580) that you are targeting. You would need to check if "tsuki" is the appropriate character/pronunciation for it though.

                    Japanese naming practices at first glance can be very confusing, I beleive the main cause for it is the huge difference in the words and forms of words used. European derived languages have a greater similarity, such as Iustinos = Justinos - the modern Justin, or Mikhail = Mikal = Michael
                    (As a personal aside I am begining to think that "Saburou" is the Japanese SCA equivilent to "Bob" or "John")

                    As far as knowledgeable people go, Lady Solvieg is perhapse one of the most learned and studied people on this list in the realm of Japanese names. As a matter of fact, it can be said with accuracy that she is the one who "Wrote the book" that the College of Heralds uses to check period Japanese names against. (I do not know if she is still or ever was a commenting member of the CoH herself, but I am sure she could give you advice to use on the process.)

                    In regards to your question not being answered, I belive your thread got hijacked. There are so many posts with the subject "nani-nani-Name Help/Request-nani-nani" that it is easy for people to loose track of which thread is which.

                    Things that would go towards consideration besides the date of your persona, is class, wealth within the class, area/region of Japan, if you had any assumed names as well, if you had taken vows to become a nun, your marital status, and possibly if you held any titles but those are not usualy registered.

                    YIS
                    Takeda Sanjuichiro Akimasa
                  • Maria
                    ... I do have a question about that. In watching some Japanese dramas/movies set in the Edo period, there seemed to be a habit where women s names would have
                    Message 9 of 26 , Mar 1, 2005
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                      Solveig wrote:

                      >
                      > Late Muromachi is different. The new fashion in women's given names
                      > uses an
                      > O-<theme> construction. And, I believe that the name is combined with the
                      > family (more accurately residence) name. The order is what you would
                      > expect,
                      > the given name is last.


                      I do have a question about that. In watching some Japanese
                      dramas/movies set in the Edo period, there seemed to be a habit where
                      women's names would have the O- added to the front as a sign of respect
                      (or affection??). For example, a girl named Masu was called Masu-san or
                      Masu-chan by most people, but O-Masu by a guy who admired her. Or say,
                      the lord's sister, Ichi, would be referred to as O-Ichi, although the
                      subtitled hiragana when they introduced her simply said "Ichi". What
                      was the rules of that usage, and when did that start? Is it within SCA
                      period?

                      A second question also: it seems like the Kyoto folk kept saying "-han"
                      when the Edo people were saying "-san". Was I mishearing things, or is
                      that a regional variation? (Note: didn't hear the Osaka folk saying
                      "-han" so I didn't think it was Kansai-ben). When did "-san" come into
                      usage? I know "-dono" and "-sama" were in use for the Good People, but
                      was "-san" being used amongst the commoners at an earlier time?

                      Writing from my home overlooking the Great River,

                      Ki no Torahime
                    • Solveig
                      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Late Muromachi is the sixteenth century. If I was being more exact, I would have mentioned the azuchi-momoyama period.
                      Message 10 of 26 , Mar 2, 2005
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                        Noble Cousin!

                        Greetings from Solveig! Late Muromachi is the sixteenth century. If I was being
                        more exact, I would have mentioned the azuchi-momoyama period.

                        >I do have a question about that. In watching some Japanese
                        >dramas/movies set in the Edo period, there seemed to be a habit where
                        >women's names would have the O- added to the front as a sign of respect
                        >(or affection??). For example, a girl named Masu was called Masu-san or
                        >Masu-chan by most people, but O-Masu by a guy who admired her. Or say,
                        >the lord's sister, Ichi, would be referred to as O-Ichi, although the
                        >subtitled hiragana when they introduced her simply said "Ichi". What
                        >was the rules of that usage, and when did that start? Is it within SCA
                        >period?

                        This gets a bit messy. You need to understand that dropping name parts is
                        an easy way to make nick-names. -san is a fairly recent honourific.
                        Technically,
                        the O- is also an honourific, but it functions more as part of the name. This
                        busines about O- pretty much dissappeared in the early Meiji period. Many
                        years ago there was a Taiga drama called O-?? I forget her name at the moment.
                        Regardless, she is born sometime around the Meiji Restoration and makes up
                        to sometime around Taiheiyou Sensou.

                        >A second question also: it seems like the Kyoto folk kept saying "-han"
                        >when the Edo people were saying "-san". Was I mishearing things, or is
                        >that a regional variation?

                        Kansai-ben (Osaka area dialect) is supposed to be softer sounding than
                        Kantou-ben (Toukyou area dialect). Kyouto is supposed to pretty much
                        have its own distinctive women's speech. However, except when explicitly
                        writing dialogue, you will see Kansai people writing -san.

                        >(Note: didn't hear the Osaka folk saying
                        >"-han" so I didn't think it was Kansai-ben). When did "-san" come into
                        >usage? I know "-dono" and "-sama" were in use for the Good People, but
                        >was "-san" being used amongst the commoners at an earlier time?

                        Knowing when -san came in may be difificult. However, I believe that it is
                        simply an informal variant on -sama. You see -sama as early as the late
                        Muromachi, but I think that is about the earliest I have seen it and only
                        rarely in those cases. The same document may show several people with
                        different honourifics attached to the ends of their names. Just to complicate
                        things, you can also see the kanji for uji attached to peoples names. This is
                        fairly common in newspapers. In modern Japan, you encounter -<sama>
                        -<dono> and -<uji> fairly frequently. Here I wrote forms by which you can
                        easily tell which character is being written, I am not saying that they are
                        read in this way when used as honourifics.
                        --

                        Your Humble Servant
                        Solveig Throndardottir
                        Amateur Scholar

                        +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                        | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                        | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
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                        | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to the |
                        | trash by my email filters. |
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                      • elwenaduialloth
                        Hey all. I m somewhat new to the SCA and recently a few friends and I have decided to do Japanese personas as a group. First of all, would we be able to all
                        Message 11 of 26 , Mar 24, 2008
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                          Hey all. I'm somewhat new to the SCA and recently a few friends and I
                          have decided to do Japanese personas as a group. First of all, would
                          we be able to all take the same clan name and would we have to do
                          anything special to get that passed? Second of all, we have some ideas
                          for names that we came up with based on the information in "An Online
                          Japanese Miscellany" and I would like some feedback on whether they are
                          viable or not. The clan name is Yashiro. The full names in question
                          are Yashiro Ryuutarou Katsuaki, Yashiro Ryuuzaburou Harutoshi, and
                          Yashiro Hana, although I'm a lot less certain about the female name
                          structure than the males. Am I just way off base with this or are
                          these workable? We are currently looking at Muromachi period, early to
                          mid 1500s. Thank you so much.

                          ~Renee
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