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Test Kamon

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  • Oniyama
    Hello All, I have uploaded a test kamon. It can be found at: http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/vwp?.dir=/Oniyama&.src=gr&.dnm=
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 23, 2005
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      Hello All,

      I have uploaded a test kamon. It can be found at:

      http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/vwp?.dir=/Oniyama&.src=gr&.dnm=
      Kuroyama+Test+Kamon.gif&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.groups.yahoo.com/group
      /sca-jml/lst%3f%26.dir=/Oniyama%26.src=gr%26.view=t

      or in the Oniyama section of the photo albums. Please let me know what you
      think.


      Take care,
      John Hidalgo
      www.texasshinto.org
      www.roundrockbujinkan.com
      "Seek freedom and become a slave to your desires. Seek discipline and
      discover your liberty."
    • Elaine Koogler
      ... I think it s handsome. However, I m not sure about the border around the mountain-wave design. I know how it would be blazoned in western
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 24, 2005
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        Oniyama wrote:

        > Hello All,
        >
        > I have uploaded a test kamon. It can be found at:
        >
        > http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/vwp?.dir=/Oniyama&.src=gr&.dnm=
        > <http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/vwp?.dir=/Oniyama&.src=gr&.dnm=>
        > Kuroyama+Test+Kamon.gif&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.groups.yahoo.com/group
        > /sca-jml/lst%3f%26.dir=/Oniyama%26.src=gr%26.view=t
        >
        > or in the Oniyama section of the photo albums. Please let me know
        > what you
        > think.
        >
        >
        > Take care,
        > John Hidalgo
        > www.texasshinto.org
        > www.roundrockbujinkan.com
        > "Seek freedom and become a slave to your desires. Seek discipline and
        > discover your liberty."
        >
        >
        >
        I think it's handsome. However, I'm not sure about the border around
        the mountain-wave design. I know how it would be blazoned in western
        terminology...but don't recall seeing anything quite like it in Japanese
        heraldry. I'm also uncertain as to how the wave would be blazoned in
        western terms.

        Kiri
      • John Hidalgo
        Well, for what it s worth, there is this... http://e-kamon.net/kamon037.html So far I haven t seen anything exactly like it either. Just the individual
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 24, 2005
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          Well, for what it's worth, there is this...
          http://e-kamon.net/kamon037.html

          So far I haven't seen anything exactly like it either. Just the
          individual elements. I would love to fnd the actual Kuroyama Mon
          but have not found it on Google yet. Otherwise, I was under the
          impression that would should come up with something new (or at least
          something that would be a natural progression) within the bounds of
          the culture and period.

          Take care,
          John Hidalgo
          www.texasshinto.org
          www.roundrockbujinkan.com
          "Seek freedom and become a slave to your desires. Seek discipline
          and discover your liberty."

          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1@c...>
          wrote:
          > Oniyama wrote:
          >
          > > Hello All,
          > >
          > > I have uploaded a test kamon. It can be found at:
          > >
          > > http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-
          jml/vwp?.dir=/Oniyama&.src=gr&.dnm=
          > > <http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-
          jml/vwp?.dir=/Oniyama&.src=gr&.dnm=>
          > > Kuroyama+Test+Kamon.gif&.view=t&.done=http%
          3a//photos.groups.yahoo.com/group
          > > /sca-jml/lst%3f%26.dir=/Oniyama%26.src=gr%26.view=t
          > >
          > > or in the Oniyama section of the photo albums. Please let me
          know
          > > what you
          > > think.
          > >
          > >
          > > Take care,
          > > John Hidalgo
          > > www.texasshinto.org
          > > www.roundrockbujinkan.com
          > > "Seek freedom and become a slave to your desires. Seek
          discipline and
          > > discover your liberty."
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > I think it's handsome. However, I'm not sure about the border
          around
          > the mountain-wave design. I know how it would be blazoned in
          western
          > terminology...but don't recall seeing anything quite like it in
          Japanese
          > heraldry. I'm also uncertain as to how the wave would be blazoned
          in
          > western terms.
          >
          > Kiri
        • Elaine Koogler
          ... Yeah, I ve seen those as well, though I hadn t actually seen the one you re using before. I can t read the Japanese, but how is it identified? That might
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 24, 2005
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            John Hidalgo wrote:

            >
            > Well, for what it's worth, there is this...
            > http://e-kamon.net/kamon037.html
            >
            > So far I haven't seen anything exactly like it either. Just the
            > individual elements. I would love to fnd the actual Kuroyama Mon
            > but have not found it on Google yet. Otherwise, I was under the
            > impression that would should come up with something new (or at least
            > something that would be a natural progression) within the bounds of
            > the culture and period.
            >
            > Take care,
            > John Hidalgo
            > www.texasshinto.org
            > www.roundrockbujinkan.com
            > "Seek freedom and become a slave to your desires. Seek discipline
            > and discover your liberty."
            >
            Yeah, I've seen those as well, though I hadn't actually seen the one
            you're using before. I can't read the Japanese, but how is it
            identified? That might give you a clue as to why you haven't seen it
            used as a "bordure" around another image. (I'm thinking in terms of a
            well frame, for example)

            Kiri
          • Solveig
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Why not loose the border? Borders were rare before 1600, and I do not recall seeing this one. Incidentally, the thing in
            Message 5 of 12 , Feb 24, 2005
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              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig! Why not loose the border? Borders were rare
              before 1600,
              and I do not recall seeing this one.

              Incidentally, the thing in the base is a pair of clouds, not a wave.
              --

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar

              +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
              | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
              | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
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            • Otagiri Tatsuzou
              ... Borders are an easy way to gain difference points for approval by the CoH and are easy to leave off in your actual heraldic displays. Otagiri
              Message 6 of 12 , Feb 24, 2005
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                > Greetings from Solveig! Why not loose the border? Borders were rare
                > before 1600, and I do not recall seeing this one.

                Borders are an easy way to gain difference points for approval by the
                CoH and are easy to leave off in your actual heraldic displays.

                Otagiri
              • sigrune@aol.com
                ... Be careful with that site, while it is a good source for seeing certain shapes (and snagging them to use as templates) a great many of those kamon are post
                Message 7 of 12 , Feb 24, 2005
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                  ::snip::
                  >Well, for what it's worth, there is this...
                  >http://e-kamon.net/kamon037.html
                  ::end snip::

                  Be careful with that site, while it is a good source for seeing certain shapes (and snagging them to use as templates) a great many of those kamon are post period.

                  I cannot find any documentable evidence that that border was used prior to the Edo period. I'm not saying it is not possible, or even probable, I just can't find anything on it prior to 1760.

                  IIRC the Kuroyama did not have a standardized mon, might have been a large number of people with the name, but used a wide variety. I also cannot find a partiuarly noteworthy group of them that used anything other than kanji on their banners, and unfortuneatly kanji are not acceptable for use as charges. If they were we would be all set!.

                  -Takeda Sanjuichiro
                • Solveig
                  Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... 1. Borders are not generally particularly good recreation of period Japanese heraldry. 2. Leaving off a border which
                  Message 8 of 12 , Feb 24, 2005
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                    Noble Cousin!

                    Greetings from Solveig!

                    > > Greetings from Solveig! Why not loose the border? Borders were rare
                    >> before 1600, and I do not recall seeing this one.
                    >
                    >Borders are an easy way to gain difference points for approval by the
                    >CoH and are easy to leave off in your actual heraldic displays.

                    1. Borders are not generally particularly good recreation of period Japanese
                    heraldry.

                    2. Leaving off a border which is registered with the College of Arms
                    is generally
                    speaking impolite. If you do not want a border, then you should
                    not include it
                    in your registration.

                    3. If you absolutely must use a border, then please please please try
                    to use one
                    that was around back in 1600.

                    4. It really isn't as hard to register a kamon as a badge sans border
                    as you appear
                    to think. A few years ago, I registered <fieldless> a losenge Or.
                    Wonderfully
                    period as it is basically a "bishi". I can put bishi all over stuff.
                    --

                    Your Humble Servant
                    Solveig Throndardottir
                    Amateur Scholar

                    +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                    | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                    | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                    +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to the |
                    | trash by my email filters. |
                    +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  • sigrune@aol.com
                    ... It depends alot about when you are referring to. Early on borders (encasements, or however you wish to describe them) were uncommon. By the sengoku era
                    Message 9 of 12 , Feb 24, 2005
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                      On 2/24/2005 2:59:12PM Solveig <nostrand@...> writes:

                      ::snip::
                      >1. Borders are not generally particularly good recreation
                      > of period Japanese heraldry.
                      ::end snip::

                      It depends alot about when you are referring to. Early on borders (encasements, or however you wish to describe them) were uncommon. By the sengoku era however they were exceedingly common, but not universal. I agree with your other points though.

                      -Takeda Sanjuichiro
                    • Solveig
                      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... What documentaiton do you have for borders being common by 1600? They do exist, but they remain distintly rare in
                      Message 10 of 12 , Feb 24, 2005
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                        Noble Cousin!

                        Greetings from Solveig!

                        >It depends alot about when you are referring to. Early on borders
                        >(encasements, or however you wish to describe them) were uncommon.
                        >By the sengoku era however they were exceedingly common, but not
                        >universal. I agree with your other points though.

                        What documentaiton do you have for borders being common by 1600? They do
                        exist, but they remain distintly rare in Daibukan prior to 1600.
                        Further, I do not
                        recall seeing the proposed border prior to this. Those borders do eventually
                        become quite common AFTER 1600.
                        --

                        Your Humble Servant
                        Solveig Throndardottir
                        Amateur Scholar

                        +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                        | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                        | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                        +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                        | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to the |
                        | trash by my email filters. |
                        +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                      • sigrune@aol.com
                        ... Possibly we are getting our wires crossed. The mon that was posted here and asked about has a border that appears after 1600... I belive that style of
                        Message 11 of 12 , Feb 25, 2005
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                          On 2/24/2005 10:58:02 PM Solvieg Writes:
                          >What documentaiton do you have for borders being
                          >common by 1600? They do exist, but they remain
                          >distintly rare in Daibukan prior to 1600.
                          >Further, I do not recall seeing the proposed
                          >border prior to this. Those borders do eventually
                          >become quite common AFTER 1600.

                          Possibly we are getting our wires crossed.
                          The mon that was posted here and asked about has a border that appears after 1600... I belive that style of border did not become known until the 1750's, or more specfically I can find no examples before then. (The inward curved diamond shape)

                          As for borders in general, here are just a few of the ones before 1600.. Oda, Tokugawa, Date, Tachibana, Usagi...
                          I would not say that bordered mon were in the majority late period, but I would certainly not consider them rare. The farther back one goes though, the less prolific they become.
                          I would be interested in understanding why you consider them rare.

                          -Takeda Sanjuichiro
                        • Solveig
                          Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Thumb through Daibukan, it is arranged chronologically, and you will get a strong sense for their rarity prior to
                          Message 12 of 12 , Feb 25, 2005
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                            Noble Cousin!

                            Greetings from Solveig!

                            >I would be interested in understanding why you consider them rare.

                            Thumb through Daibukan, it is arranged chronologically, and you will
                            get a strong
                            sense for their rarity prior to Sengoku Jidai. Even during Sengogku
                            Jidai, they were
                            not all that common.
                            --

                            Your Humble Servant
                            Solveig Throndardottir
                            Amateur Scholar

                            +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                            | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                            | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                            | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                            +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                            | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to the |
                            | trash by my email filters. |
                            +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
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