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Name help

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  • Mara
    I have been given 2 weeks to get my SCA name and I am in need of some help in that department. I have an idea for a name though I do know that I am going about
    Message 1 of 26 , Feb 22, 2005
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      I have been given 2 weeks to get my SCA name and I am in need of
      some help in that department.

      I have an idea for a name though I do know that I am going about it
      a little backwards. I have a meaning that I would like to has
      translated into a name.

      Red Bird (Akatori) by the sea or in the river or something along
      those lines. I am not sure akatori is correct or would be a given
      name or would be considered period.

      If you would be able to help me I would really appreciate it.

      -Mara
    • Solveig
      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Akatori is rather unlikely to work. You are not going about things backwards really. You just aren t getting into the
      Message 2 of 26 , Feb 22, 2005
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        Noble Cousin!

        Greetings from Solveig! "Akatori" is rather unlikely to work. You are
        not going about
        things backwards really. You just aren't getting into the ethos far
        enough. Why not
        start with what sort of person from what time period you would have your future
        name? That will help a lot.
        --

        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar

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        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
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      • Mara
        I feel that my persona is a young married woman, merchant class. Pre- Edo time period. Mara
        Message 3 of 26 , Feb 23, 2005
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          I feel that my persona is a young married woman, merchant class. Pre-
          Edo time period.

          Mara
        • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
          ... This covers a large timeframe. Since you are looking at merchant class, I m assuming you are looking at Muromachi or Momoyama era, although a Kamakura or
          Message 4 of 26 , Feb 23, 2005
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            On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 00:07:05 -0000, Mara <mnv@...> wrote:
            >
            > I feel that my persona is a young married woman, merchant class. Pre-
            > Edo time period.
            >
            > Mara

            This covers a large timeframe. Since you are looking at merchant
            class, I'm assuming you are looking at Muromachi or Momoyama era,
            although a Kamakura or Heian era persona would be doable as well.

            If I may ask, is there a reason you are looking at merchant class? In
            the SCA, everyone is assumed to be of noble birth--in Japan most
            people translate to be either the buke (warrior) or kuge (noble)
            caste--unless you want to be otherwise for some reason.

            -Ii
          • Suzaku no Futago Hoshi
            I was wondering if this name that I ve been working on would work for my persona, which is a young unmarried woman of the lower buke OR merchent class in the
            Message 5 of 26 , Feb 23, 2005
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              I was wondering if this name that I've been working on would work for
              my persona, which is a young unmarried woman of the lower buke OR
              merchent class in the Heian Period:

              Surname - Matsui
              given/first name - Kitae "northern bay"
              ((Matsui no Kitae))

              I have been doing alot of reading and research for something that is
              acceptable, so I hope I've understood everything I've learned
              correctly...
            • Solveig
              Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... I assume that you mean merchant class not artisan class. There is a difference. Now what you need to do is limit the
              Message 6 of 26 , Feb 24, 2005
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                Noble Cousin!

                Greetings from Solveig!

                >I feel that my persona is a young married woman, merchant class. Pre-
                >Edo time period.

                I assume that you mean merchant class not artisan class. There is a difference.
                Now what you need to do is limit the time period. Per-1600 covers a LOT of
                cultural and linguistic territory.
                --

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar

                +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
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              • Solveig
                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... The proposed name style is unlikely to work for the merchant class of the Heian period. For that class, you need to
                Message 7 of 26 , Feb 24, 2005
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                  Noble Cousin!

                  Greetings from Solveig!

                  >I was wondering if this name that I've been working on would work for
                  >my persona, which is a young unmarried woman of the lower buke OR
                  >merchent class in the Heian Period:
                  >
                  >Surname - Matsui
                  >given/first name - Kitae "northern bay"
                  >((Matsui no Kitae))

                  The proposed name style is unlikely to work for the merchant class of
                  the Heian period. For that class, you need to adobt a -be or -tomo
                  name.

                  As for the kuge or buke. Here you need to take a name of the form:

                  <uji name> no <given name>

                  There is a rather short list of uji to choose from, and no you should
                  not make one up.
                  If you are interested in the later Heian period, then your given name
                  will most likely
                  be of -ko form. As I recall, there are a few interesting appearances
                  of "kita" in Heian
                  period names, but the usage is not particularly toponymic (place
                  descriptive). You should definitely not go for a toponymic (place)
                  name unless you are a recluse in which case you may be known by the
                  name of your hermitage. The -e form names that you encounter in
                  modern Japanese female names, are pretty modern.

                  Please try to find a herald in your area who has a cpy of my unworthy pamphlet
                  on Japanese names. It is called "Name Construction in Medieval Japan", it is
                  intended to help heralds working with premodern Japanese names.
                  --

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar

                  +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                  | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                  | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                  +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to the |
                  | trash by my email filters. |
                  +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                • Booknerd9@yahoo.com
                  ... Sorry if it s bad form to hold onto the shirttails of someone else s post, but, to my knowledge, my herald might be weak in Japanese persona-fu , though
                  Message 8 of 26 , Feb 24, 2005
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                    --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig <nostrand@a...> wrote:
                    > As for the kuge or buke. Here you need to take a name of the form:
                    >
                    > <uji name> no <given name>
                    >
                    > There is a rather short list of uji to choose from, and no you should
                    > not make one up.


                    Sorry if it's bad form to hold onto the shirttails of someone else's post, but, to my
                    knowledge, my herald might "be weak in Japanese persona-fu", though I'm sure he
                    could dig up something.
                    If there's such a short list of Uji names, would it be possible for you to send me that
                    list? I'm trying to compile a little list of ones for me to pick from but I only have the
                    internet at my disposal at present and I've only come up with eight or so that I can be
                    absolutely sure of (sugawara, tachibana, fujiwara, oe etc.)

                    Thank you.

                    Eve/Nori
                  • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                    On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:38:37 -0000, Booknerd9@yahoo.com ... Where are you at? ... It isn t that the list is short and easy to compile so much as it is
                    Message 9 of 26 , Feb 24, 2005
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                      On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:38:37 -0000, Booknerd9@...
                      <Booknerd9@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Sorry if it's bad form to hold onto the shirttails of someone else's post,
                      > but, to my
                      > knowledge, my herald might "be weak in Japanese persona-fu", though I'm sure
                      > he
                      > could dig up something.

                      Where are you at?

                      > If there's such a short list of Uji names, would it be possible for you to
                      > send me that
                      > list? I'm trying to compile a little list of ones for me to pick from but I
                      > only have the
                      > internet at my disposal at present and I've only come up with eight or so
                      > that I can be
                      > absolutely sure of (sugawara, tachibana, fujiwara, oe etc.)

                      It isn't that the list is short and easy to compile so much as it is
                      relatively short. That is, we have a fair idea of what they all were,
                      and can look them up. However, there is a reason that I have
                      Solveig's book and haven't just posted a list of all the names I could
                      find online, instead: it is a single reference source for all that
                      kind of stuff and seriously useful, imho.

                      Maybe some more persona background would help us find a name for you.

                      For the record, if you wanted to be anybody in Heian Japan, better be
                      Fujiwara. Sure there are some Abe's around--and the Sugawara family
                      once got a bit uppity--but for the most part Fujiwara is the family
                      name you need to get into the halls of power. Quite literally, in
                      many cases. Minamoto and Taira are the two 'commoner' families--they
                      are the warrior households formed of discarded Imperial princes (too
                      many Imperial princes--make one a Minamoto [Genji] or Taira [Heiji]).
                      I know that they have some relatively high ranking folks throughout
                      the period.

                      So, Fujiwara, Taira, or Minamoto are my first three suggestions.
                      Beyond that, what do you want to do? If you are into calendars, Kamo
                      is a good family. Like to read omens and predict eclipses? Abe is
                      the house for you.

                      You want a 'merchant'. What kind? A traveller? How about an early
                      Heian envoy? We know that Sugawara members went (was it Michizane who
                      suggested finally breaking ties with China?).

                      So, let's narrow down the pursuit and see what we come up with.

                      -Ii
                    • Booknerd9@yahoo.com
                      ... Carolingia during the school year, and it would appear to be Dragonship Haven during the vacation, though I haven t attended any of their meetings.
                      Message 10 of 26 , Feb 24, 2005
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                        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)"
                        <tatsushu@g...> wrote:
                        >> Where are you at?
                        Carolingia during the school year, and it would appear to be
                        Dragonship Haven during the vacation, though I haven't attended any
                        of their meetings.
                        Apparently, my provost is trying to set up a meeting for our
                        borough with the Baron, who is quite keen on persona development. So
                        maybe there is a copy of Solvig's pamphlet floating around in
                        Carolingia somewhere, I'd just have to see what I can do in the
                        contacts department to get my hands on it.

                        >> Beyond that, what do you want to do? If you are into calendars,
                        Kamo
                        > is a good family. Like to read omens and predict eclipses? Abe is
                        > the house for you.

                        Sounds like the Heian era sorting hat, :)

                        I initially was thinking of going with Sugawara because they were
                        1. very into literature and 2. quite knowledgable about China and
                        I'm interested in what would be contemporary Chinese culture as
                        well. However, late Heian/early to mid Kamakura is when Japan
                        started to transform Chinese traditions into ones they could call
                        their own.
                        And I'm probably sticking to the kuge/buke classes, though I don't
                        want to be much of a power-player-possibly on the lower rungs of
                        nobility if anything, most likely buke but pretty artsy, stuck out
                        in the provinces.
                        Merchant would be fun, but I adore wearing my hakama.

                        Thank you

                        Eve/Nori
                      • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                        On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 21:56:16 -0000, Booknerd9@yahoo.com ... Carolingia had some real nice persona development when I was there last, for Crossroads, some time
                        Message 11 of 26 , Feb 24, 2005
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                          On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 21:56:16 -0000, Booknerd9@...
                          <Booknerd9@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Apparently, my provost is trying to set up a meeting for our
                          > borough with the Baron, who is quite keen on persona development. So
                          > maybe there is a copy of Solvig's pamphlet floating around in
                          > Carolingia somewhere, I'd just have to see what I can do in the
                          > contacts department to get my hands on it.

                          Carolingia had some real nice persona development when I was there
                          last, for Crossroads, some time back.

                          Anyway, I seem to recall that there were a couple of Japanese personae
                          that I saw there, but I could have been mistaken.

                          > >> Beyond that, what do you want to do? If you are into calendars,
                          > Kamo
                          > > is a good family. Like to read omens and predict eclipses? Abe is
                          > > the house for you.
                          >
                          > Sounds like the Heian era sorting hat, :)

                          I can see it now: tate eboshi sitting on a stand; the little diamond
                          depression moving with the words.... ;)

                          > I initially was thinking of going with Sugawara because they were
                          > 1. very into literature and 2. quite knowledgable about China and
                          > I'm interested in what would be contemporary Chinese culture as
                          > well. However, late Heian/early to mid Kamakura is when Japan
                          > started to transform Chinese traditions into ones they could call
                          > their own.

                          True, but Sugawara would put you in good company (I have a good friend
                          with that name--he's in charge of the standardization of igo-piece
                          sizes). Anyway, the family continued past the fall of Michizane--I
                          see people using it today (not a true sign of unbroken use, but still
                          promising).

                          > And I'm probably sticking to the kuge/buke classes, though I don't
                          > want to be much of a power-player-possibly on the lower rungs of
                          > nobility if anything, most likely buke but pretty artsy, stuck out
                          > in the provinces.

                          Sugawara cadet famiily that stayed out in the Dazaifu (where Michizane
                          was 'exiled'--he was made governor, iirc)?

                          > Merchant would be fun, but I adore wearing my hakama.

                          Definitely recommend going with kuge. Although, kuge and buke don't
                          appear to have been quite as set in stone as they were later on. Many
                          kuge found that taking on the trappings of the buke (like, oh, your
                          own private army) had its perks. Likewise, many buke aspired to
                          high-ranking court positions.

                          -Ii
                        • Suzaku no Futago Hoshi
                          ... for ... of ... should ... name ... appearances ... unworthy pamphlet ... Japan , it is ... ahhhh ok. Looks I need to brush up more. Ah well, it was worth
                          Message 12 of 26 , Feb 24, 2005
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                            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig <nostrand@a...> wrote:
                            > Noble Cousin!
                            >
                            > Greetings from Solveig!
                            >
                            > >I was wondering if this name that I've been working on would work
                            for
                            > >my persona, which is a young unmarried woman of the lower buke OR
                            > >merchent class in the Heian Period:
                            > >
                            > >Surname - Matsui
                            > >given/first name - Kitae "northern bay"
                            > >((Matsui no Kitae))
                            >
                            > The proposed name style is unlikely to work for the merchant class
                            of
                            > the Heian period. For that class, you need to adobt a -be or -tomo
                            > name.
                            >
                            > As for the kuge or buke. Here you need to take a name of the form:
                            >
                            > <uji name> no <given name>
                            >
                            > There is a rather short list of uji to choose from, and no you
                            should
                            > not make one up.
                            > If you are interested in the later Heian period, then your given
                            name
                            > will most likely
                            > be of -ko form. As I recall, there are a few interesting
                            appearances
                            > of "kita" in Heian
                            > period names, but the usage is not particularly toponymic (place
                            > descriptive). You should definitely not go for a toponymic (place)
                            > name unless you are a recluse in which case you may be known by the
                            > name of your hermitage. The -e form names that you encounter in
                            > modern Japanese female names, are pretty modern.
                            >
                            > Please try to find a herald in your area who has a cpy of my
                            unworthy pamphlet
                            > on Japanese names. It is called "Name Construction in Medieval
                            Japan", it is
                            > intended to help heralds working with premodern Japanese names.


                            ahhhh ok. Looks I need to brush up more. Ah well, it was worth a
                            shot, and I will definatly add these guidelines to my notes.

                            I will look into finding a local hareld that has your pamphlet, but I
                            am uncertian if anyone in my area (Albuquerque, NM) is interested in
                            the Japanese culture and persona, But I will investigate.

                            Thank you for your help!
                          • Booknerd9@yahoo.com
                            ... diamond ... Cute. Sorry to go off topic, but I read somewhere that some baronies et. al. have A&S chalenges including the writing of filk
                            Message 13 of 26 , Feb 24, 2005
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                              > > Sounds like the Heian era sorting hat, :)
                              >
                              > I can see it now: tate eboshi sitting on a stand; the little
                              diamond
                              > depression moving with the words.... ;)

                              Cute. Sorry to go off topic, but I read somewhere that some baronies
                              et. al. have A&S chalenges including the writing of filk
                              songs/performances. I'm not a Potterhead[1] by a long shot but
                              someone could probably come up with an adorable parody for this...


                              [1]Potterhead n. Harry Potter fan. I don't think it's derogatory,
                              though I like the pun it implies.
                            • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                              On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 01:37:56 -0000, Booknerd9@yahoo.com ... Hardly move the scythe: Rye falls as though from up hi, Potent scapulo-- Terrible drought of miso
                              Message 14 of 26 , Feb 24, 2005
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                                On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 01:37:56 -0000, Booknerd9@...
                                <Booknerd9@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > > > Sounds like the Heian era sorting hat, :)
                                > >
                                > > I can see it now: tate eboshi sitting on a stand; the little
                                > diamond
                                > > depression moving with the words.... ;)
                                >
                                > Cute. Sorry to go off topic, but I read somewhere that some baronies
                                > et. al. have A&S chalenges including the writing of filk
                                > songs/performances. I'm not a Potterhead[1] by a long shot but
                                > someone could probably come up with an adorable parody for this...

                                Hardly move the scythe:
                                Rye falls as though from up hi,
                                Potent scapulo--
                                Terrible drought of miso
                                And hungry calligraphers

                                -Ii
                              • Solveig
                                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Ii dono makes an excellent point about being an envoy . The general ritual for trade with China was to present yourself
                                Message 15 of 26 , Feb 24, 2005
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                                  Noble Cousin!

                                  Greetings from Solveig! Ii dono makes an excellent point about being
                                  an "envoy".
                                  The general ritual for trade with China was to present yourself as an emmissary
                                  bearing tribute who received gifts.

                                  As for the Fujiwara. There were A LOT of them. Further, not all of them were
                                  Heiankyou poofters. Some of them set themselves up as warlords with
                                  quasi-independent territories out in the provinces. So you can get lots of
                                  variation with the Fujiwara.

                                  After the Genpei War, there were A LOT of Minamoto wandering around.
                                  --

                                  Your Humble Servant
                                  Solveig Throndardottir
                                  Amateur Scholar

                                  +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                  | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                  | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                  | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
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                                  | trash by my email filters. |
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                                • Mara
                                  I have picked the Heian time period. I was thinking merchant just because I do not feel very royal most of the time. My main interest in Japanese culture is
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Feb 25, 2005
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                                    I have picked the Heian time period. I was thinking merchant just
                                    because I do not feel very "royal" most of the time. My main
                                    interest in Japanese culture is language and the arts. I suppose
                                    that I can be royal instead of merchant for my personal interests,
                                    but I was thinking that maybe a merchant class woman would not have
                                    to adhere to as strict rules or expectations.

                                    -Mara

                                    --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig <nostrand@a...> wrote:
                                    > I assume that you mean merchant class not artisan class. There is
                                    a difference.
                                    > Now what you need to do is limit the time period. Per-1600 covers
                                    a LOT of
                                    > cultural and linguistic territory.
                                  • Solveig
                                    Noble Cousin! Greeting from Solveig! ... Noo nooo nooooo! Adherence to rules or expecations is something that is pretty standard in traditional societies
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Feb 25, 2005
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                                      Noble Cousin!

                                      Greeting from Solveig!
                                      >I have picked the Heian time period. I was thinking merchant just
                                      >because I do not feel very "royal" most of the time. My main
                                      >interest in Japanese culture is language and the arts. I suppose
                                      >that I can be royal instead of merchant for my personal interests,
                                      >but I was thinking that maybe a merchant class woman would not have
                                      >to adhere to as strict rules or expectations.
                                      Noo nooo nooooo! Adherence to rules or expecations is something that
                                      is pretty standard in traditional societies although you may find a number
                                      of well worn back doors for people who can not quite fit into cultural
                                      stereotypes. If anything, rich and powerful people can generally get away
                                      with more than the lower middle class. If you want to go for a woman of
                                      the world type of approach to things, then you should probably go for
                                      the lower kuge or upper buke. These are the women who produced and
                                      devoured bodice rippers such as Genji. They also did interesting things
                                      such as fighting in battles and all sorts of stuff. Further, they owned
                                      property and could do so in preference to their brothers. Basically, you
                                      simply want to pick a good time period and be up enough in the world
                                      that you can do stuff.
                                      --

                                      Your Humble Servant
                                      Solveig Throndardottir
                                      Amateur Scholar

                                      +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                      | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                      | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                      | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                                      +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                      | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to the |
                                      | trash by my email filters. |
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                                    • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                                      ... Out of my head! This is exactly what I was trying to get down--lower-upper class is more free than upper-lower class. -Ii
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Feb 25, 2005
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                                        On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 19:39:46 -0500, Solveig <nostrand@...> wrote:

                                        > Noo nooo nooooo! Adherence to rules or expecations is something that
                                        > is pretty standard in traditional societies although you may find a number
                                        > of well worn back doors for people who can not quite fit into cultural
                                        > stereotypes. If anything, rich and powerful people can generally get away

                                        Out of my head!

                                        This is exactly what I was trying to get down--lower-upper class is
                                        more free than upper-lower class.

                                        -Ii
                                      • Mara
                                        Thank you for that advice on what class would have more freedom. Sometimes it is difficult to try to put myself in an ancient frame of mind versus thinking
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Feb 27, 2005
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                                          Thank you for that advice on what class would have more freedom.
                                          Sometimes it is difficult to try to put myself in an ancient frame
                                          of mind versus thinking about what I know about modern women.

                                          So what is the best way to go about getting a name that I like and
                                          that will pass?

                                          > If you want to go for a woman of
                                          > the world type of approach to things, then you should probably go
                                          for
                                          > the lower kuge or upper buke.
                                        • Solveig
                                          Noble Couisin! Greetings from Solveig! According to Jeffery Mass, kuge and buke women from the late Heian and Early Kamakura period tended to have names of the
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Feb 27, 2005
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                                            Noble Couisin!

                                            Greetings from Solveig! According to Jeffery Mass, kuge and buke
                                            women from the late Heian and Early Kamakura period tended to have
                                            names of the form:

                                            <uji name> <personal name>

                                            You can insert a -no- between the two names during use, but this -no- is not
                                            generally written. There is only a restricted collection of uji names to choose
                                            from. During the late Heian, the most prolific and most flexible is probably
                                            Fujiwara, but there are many others to choose from. Late Heian women frequently
                                            had personal names ending in -ko when usining native kun'yomi readings. There
                                            are other possibilities.
                                            --

                                            Your Humble Servant
                                            Solveig Throndardottir
                                            Amateur Scholar

                                            +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                            | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                            | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                            | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                                            +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                            | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to the |
                                            | trash by my email filters. |
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                                          • Heidi Lyn
                                            ... I think the more I read about Japanese names, the more confused I become, but I think its because we are generally not talking about my time period. I
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Mar 1 7:29 AM
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                                              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig <nostrand@a...> wrote:
                                              > Noble Couisin!
                                              >
                                              > Greetings from Solveig! According to Jeffery Mass, kuge and buke
                                              > women from the late Heian and Early Kamakura period tended to have
                                              > names of the form:
                                              >
                                              > <uji name> <personal name>
                                              >
                                              > You can insert a -no- between the two names during use, but this -no- is not
                                              > generally written. There is only a restricted collection of uji names to choose
                                              > from. During the late Heian, the most prolific and most flexible is probably
                                              > Fujiwara, but there are many others to choose from. Late Heian women frequently
                                              > had personal names ending in -ko when usining native kun'yomi readings. There
                                              > are other possibilities.

                                              I think the more I read about Japanese names, the more confused I become, but I think its
                                              because we are generally not talking about my time period. I would greatly appreciate a
                                              more knowledgable person letting me know if any (or all of) this dicussion on female
                                              names applies to the late Muromachi/ early Momoyama

                                              Thanks so much!
                                              Tsukime
                                            • Solveig
                                              Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Late Muromachi is different. The new fashion in women s given names uses an O- construction. And, I believe that
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Mar 1 11:02 AM
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                                                Noble Cousin!

                                                Greetings from Solveig!

                                                Late Muromachi is different. The new fashion in women's given names uses an
                                                O-<theme> construction. And, I believe that the name is combined with the
                                                family (more accurately residence) name. The order is what you would expect,
                                                the given name is last.
                                                --

                                                Your Humble Servant
                                                Solveig Throndardottir
                                                Amateur Scholar

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                                              • sigrune@aol.com
                                                Tsuki-hime, I do not have the books in front of me (I am at work) but I belive that tsuki-me (moon woman)is a fine personal name for the era (1570-1580) that
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Mar 1 11:11 AM
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                                                  Tsuki-hime,

                                                  I do not have the books in front of me (I am at work) but I belive that "tsuki-me" (moon woman)is a fine personal name for the era (1570-1580) that you are targeting. You would need to check if "tsuki" is the appropriate character/pronunciation for it though.

                                                  Japanese naming practices at first glance can be very confusing, I beleive the main cause for it is the huge difference in the words and forms of words used. European derived languages have a greater similarity, such as Iustinos = Justinos - the modern Justin, or Mikhail = Mikal = Michael
                                                  (As a personal aside I am begining to think that "Saburou" is the Japanese SCA equivilent to "Bob" or "John")

                                                  As far as knowledgeable people go, Lady Solvieg is perhapse one of the most learned and studied people on this list in the realm of Japanese names. As a matter of fact, it can be said with accuracy that she is the one who "Wrote the book" that the College of Heralds uses to check period Japanese names against. (I do not know if she is still or ever was a commenting member of the CoH herself, but I am sure she could give you advice to use on the process.)

                                                  In regards to your question not being answered, I belive your thread got hijacked. There are so many posts with the subject "nani-nani-Name Help/Request-nani-nani" that it is easy for people to loose track of which thread is which.

                                                  Things that would go towards consideration besides the date of your persona, is class, wealth within the class, area/region of Japan, if you had any assumed names as well, if you had taken vows to become a nun, your marital status, and possibly if you held any titles but those are not usualy registered.

                                                  YIS
                                                  Takeda Sanjuichiro Akimasa
                                                • Maria
                                                  ... I do have a question about that. In watching some Japanese dramas/movies set in the Edo period, there seemed to be a habit where women s names would have
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Mar 1 7:59 PM
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                                                    Solveig wrote:

                                                    >
                                                    > Late Muromachi is different. The new fashion in women's given names
                                                    > uses an
                                                    > O-<theme> construction. And, I believe that the name is combined with the
                                                    > family (more accurately residence) name. The order is what you would
                                                    > expect,
                                                    > the given name is last.


                                                    I do have a question about that. In watching some Japanese
                                                    dramas/movies set in the Edo period, there seemed to be a habit where
                                                    women's names would have the O- added to the front as a sign of respect
                                                    (or affection??). For example, a girl named Masu was called Masu-san or
                                                    Masu-chan by most people, but O-Masu by a guy who admired her. Or say,
                                                    the lord's sister, Ichi, would be referred to as O-Ichi, although the
                                                    subtitled hiragana when they introduced her simply said "Ichi". What
                                                    was the rules of that usage, and when did that start? Is it within SCA
                                                    period?

                                                    A second question also: it seems like the Kyoto folk kept saying "-han"
                                                    when the Edo people were saying "-san". Was I mishearing things, or is
                                                    that a regional variation? (Note: didn't hear the Osaka folk saying
                                                    "-han" so I didn't think it was Kansai-ben). When did "-san" come into
                                                    usage? I know "-dono" and "-sama" were in use for the Good People, but
                                                    was "-san" being used amongst the commoners at an earlier time?

                                                    Writing from my home overlooking the Great River,

                                                    Ki no Torahime
                                                  • Solveig
                                                    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Late Muromachi is the sixteenth century. If I was being more exact, I would have mentioned the azuchi-momoyama period.
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Mar 2 2:40 AM
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                                                      Noble Cousin!

                                                      Greetings from Solveig! Late Muromachi is the sixteenth century. If I was being
                                                      more exact, I would have mentioned the azuchi-momoyama period.

                                                      >I do have a question about that. In watching some Japanese
                                                      >dramas/movies set in the Edo period, there seemed to be a habit where
                                                      >women's names would have the O- added to the front as a sign of respect
                                                      >(or affection??). For example, a girl named Masu was called Masu-san or
                                                      >Masu-chan by most people, but O-Masu by a guy who admired her. Or say,
                                                      >the lord's sister, Ichi, would be referred to as O-Ichi, although the
                                                      >subtitled hiragana when they introduced her simply said "Ichi". What
                                                      >was the rules of that usage, and when did that start? Is it within SCA
                                                      >period?

                                                      This gets a bit messy. You need to understand that dropping name parts is
                                                      an easy way to make nick-names. -san is a fairly recent honourific.
                                                      Technically,
                                                      the O- is also an honourific, but it functions more as part of the name. This
                                                      busines about O- pretty much dissappeared in the early Meiji period. Many
                                                      years ago there was a Taiga drama called O-?? I forget her name at the moment.
                                                      Regardless, she is born sometime around the Meiji Restoration and makes up
                                                      to sometime around Taiheiyou Sensou.

                                                      >A second question also: it seems like the Kyoto folk kept saying "-han"
                                                      >when the Edo people were saying "-san". Was I mishearing things, or is
                                                      >that a regional variation?

                                                      Kansai-ben (Osaka area dialect) is supposed to be softer sounding than
                                                      Kantou-ben (Toukyou area dialect). Kyouto is supposed to pretty much
                                                      have its own distinctive women's speech. However, except when explicitly
                                                      writing dialogue, you will see Kansai people writing -san.

                                                      >(Note: didn't hear the Osaka folk saying
                                                      >"-han" so I didn't think it was Kansai-ben). When did "-san" come into
                                                      >usage? I know "-dono" and "-sama" were in use for the Good People, but
                                                      >was "-san" being used amongst the commoners at an earlier time?

                                                      Knowing when -san came in may be difificult. However, I believe that it is
                                                      simply an informal variant on -sama. You see -sama as early as the late
                                                      Muromachi, but I think that is about the earliest I have seen it and only
                                                      rarely in those cases. The same document may show several people with
                                                      different honourifics attached to the ends of their names. Just to complicate
                                                      things, you can also see the kanji for uji attached to peoples names. This is
                                                      fairly common in newspapers. In modern Japan, you encounter -<sama>
                                                      -<dono> and -<uji> fairly frequently. Here I wrote forms by which you can
                                                      easily tell which character is being written, I am not saying that they are
                                                      read in this way when used as honourifics.
                                                      --

                                                      Your Humble Servant
                                                      Solveig Throndardottir
                                                      Amateur Scholar

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                                                      | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
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                                                    • elwenaduialloth
                                                      Hey all. I m somewhat new to the SCA and recently a few friends and I have decided to do Japanese personas as a group. First of all, would we be able to all
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Mar 24 8:08 PM
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                                                        Hey all. I'm somewhat new to the SCA and recently a few friends and I
                                                        have decided to do Japanese personas as a group. First of all, would
                                                        we be able to all take the same clan name and would we have to do
                                                        anything special to get that passed? Second of all, we have some ideas
                                                        for names that we came up with based on the information in "An Online
                                                        Japanese Miscellany" and I would like some feedback on whether they are
                                                        viable or not. The clan name is Yashiro. The full names in question
                                                        are Yashiro Ryuutarou Katsuaki, Yashiro Ryuuzaburou Harutoshi, and
                                                        Yashiro Hana, although I'm a lot less certain about the female name
                                                        structure than the males. Am I just way off base with this or are
                                                        these workable? We are currently looking at Muromachi period, early to
                                                        mid 1500s. Thank you so much.

                                                        ~Renee
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