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Re: [SCA-JML] Onmyou-do/Yin-Yang Divination

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  • Park McKellop
    Solveig wrote: I m very suspicious of the yarrow stick method as it takes a very long time. I suppose that some diviners might have
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 1, 2005
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      Solveig <nostrand@...> wrote:
      I'm very suspicious of the yarrow stick method as it takes a very
      long time. I suppose
      that some diviners might have practiced it for the very wealthy, but
      other meathods
      must have been regularly used.

      --



      Would it take as long as oracle bones?

      Alcyoneus



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    • Ii Saburou
      ... I just read an account that is supposed to describe how the tortoise shell and deer scapulae divinations were probably done (unfortunately, I m not sure of
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 2, 2005
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        On Tue, 1 Feb 2005, Park McKellop wrote:

        > Would it take as long as oracle bones?
        >
        I just read an account that is supposed to describe how the tortoise shell
        and deer scapulae divinations were probably done (unfortunately, I'm not
        sure of their sources :( ), accompanying a bunch of the actual texts with
        translations. According to that source (a Chinese anthology of
        literature), a packed earth mound was made inside a hut, a poker was
        heated, and five shells were 'tested'. Furthermore, they would ask
        multiple times (so five times they would say "Father Yi is the source of
        the toothache...(test)....Father Yi is not the source of the toothache...
        (test)..." and then go on to another question "Father Zhang is the source
        of the toothache...(test)...Father Zhang is not the source of the
        toothache...(test)") the described test took 15 shells, with two
        questions per shell (positive and negative), and also included a sacrifice
        and questioning the entrails just in case. That seems to me like it would
        take quite a long time as well (and be extremely product intensive--at
        least 15 tortoise shells in that one divination, and then getting a fire
        ready, etc.), so I could easily see that being just as long.

        -Ii
      • Jess
        On the subject - has anyone seen the movies Onmyouji one and two? I stumbled upon them a while back and was quite impressed by the details. Great costuming!
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 7, 2005
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          On the subject - has anyone seen the movies Onmyouji one and two?

          I stumbled upon them a while back and was quite impressed by the
          details. Great costuming! (except for the monsters...)

          Apparently the movies are based on a book series based on a real
          historical character - Abe no Seimei (I think I spelled that right)
          who was a Court Onmyouji in the Heian jidai. I did a little internet
          searching, and was immidiately interested in the subject, since I
          already have a deep respect for Shinto, Buddhism, Tao, and
          Confucious.

          I hope you get enough materials to do a class, I'll be there!

          - skmt
        • mokurai
          You all remind me of the fact that the East Kingdom has a Soothsayer s Guild. I have no idea if Atlantia does, but the main thing is, there are people out
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 7, 2005
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            You all remind me of the fact that the East Kingdom has a Soothsayer's
            Guild. I have no idea if Atlantia does, but the main thing is, there are
            people out there who would be interested in your studies and in
            attending SCA classes once you have your materials together.

            - mokurai



            Jess wrote:

            >On the subject - has anyone seen the movies Onmyouji one and two?
            >
            >I stumbled upon them a while back and was quite impressed by the
            >details. Great costuming! (except for the monsters...)
            >
            >Apparently the movies are based on a book series based on a real
            >historical character - Abe no Seimei (I think I spelled that right)
            >who was a Court Onmyouji in the Heian jidai. I did a little internet
            >searching, and was immidiately interested in the subject, since I
            >already have a deep respect for Shinto, Buddhism, Tao, and
            >Confucious.
            >
            >I hope you get enough materials to do a class, I'll be there!
            >
            >- skmt
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >Yahoo! Groups Links
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            >

            --
            For the uncontrolled there is no wisdom.
            For the uncontrolled there is no concentration,
            and for him without concentration, there is no peace.
            And for the unpeaceful how can there ever be happiness?
            - The Bhagavad Gita
          • ellen.m.davis@att.net
            I ve been intending to contact the head of the Soothsayers Guild for a while now, to discuss setting up an Atlantian branch office of sorts. Ii and I have
            Message 5 of 20 , Feb 7, 2005
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              I've been intending to contact the head of the Soothsayers' Guild for a while now, to discuss setting up an Atlantian branch office of sorts. Ii and I have seriously discussed forming the "Abe" clan, partially to serve as sort of a roaming Onmyoudo/divinatory/Feng Shui police (not in Tengusanji, of course).

              I can envision it now: two onmyouji walk into a Pennsic camp, one starts whispering and pasting ofuda all over the place, while the other explains: "No, no-- your sump is in a highly inauspicious spot, you should fill it in and redig it over there!" Or wandering around the marketplace warning people of directional taboos: "My lady, you are going to the East Kingdom encampment? But that is east of here-- do you not know that the east direction is today sacred to Ten'ichi? Change your destination or risk angering the deity!"

              *walks off mumbling*,
              Tsuchimikado no Abe Kotori (don'cha know Seimei-sama was my great-uncle's second cousin twice removed?)

              -------------- Original message from mokurai <mokurai@...>: --------------


              >
              > You all remind me of the fact that the East Kingdom has a Soothsayer's
              > Guild. I have no idea if Atlantia does, but the main thing is, there are
              > people out there who would be interested in your studies and in
              > attending SCA classes once you have your materials together.
              >
              > - mokurai
              >
              >
              >
              > Jess wrote:
              >
              > >On the subject - has anyone seen the movies Onmyouji one and two?
              > >
              > >I stumbled upon them a while back and was quite impressed by the
              > >details. Great costuming! (except for the monsters...)
              > >
              > >Apparently the movies are based on a book series based on a real
              > >historical character - Abe no Seimei (I think I spelled that right)
              > >who was a Court Onmyouji in the Heian jidai. I did a little internet
              > >searching, and was immidiately interested in the subject, since I
              > >already have a deep respect for Shinto, Buddhism, Tao, and
              > >Confucious.
              > >
              > >I hope you get enough materials to do a class, I'll be there!
              > >
              > >- skmt
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > >Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > --
              > For the uncontrolled there is no wisdom.
              > For the uncontrolled there is no concentration,
              > and for him without concentration, there is no peace.
              > And for the unpeaceful how can there ever be happiness?
              > - The Bhagavad Gita
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • mokurai
              LOL I love it. Gambatte! - mo ... -- For the uncontrolled there is no wisdom. For the uncontrolled there is no concentration, and for him without
              Message 6 of 20 , Feb 7, 2005
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                LOL
                I love it. Gambatte!

                - mo


                ellen.m.davis@... wrote:

                >I've been intending to contact the head of the Soothsayers' Guild for a while now, to discuss setting up an Atlantian branch office of sorts. Ii and I have seriously discussed forming the "Abe" clan, partially to serve as sort of a roaming Onmyoudo/divinatory/Feng Shui police (not in Tengusanji, of course).
                >
                >I can envision it now: two onmyouji walk into a Pennsic camp, one starts whispering and pasting ofuda all over the place, while the other explains: "No, no-- your sump is in a highly inauspicious spot, you should fill it in and redig it over there!" Or wandering around the marketplace warning people of directional taboos: "My lady, you are going to the East Kingdom encampment? But that is east of here-- do you not know that the east direction is today sacred to Ten'ichi? Change your destination or risk angering the deity!"
                >
                >*walks off mumbling*,
                >Tsuchimikado no Abe Kotori (don'cha know Seimei-sama was my great-uncle's second cousin twice removed?)
                >
                >-------------- Original message from mokurai <mokurai@...>: --------------
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>You all remind me of the fact that the East Kingdom has a Soothsayer's
                >>Guild. I have no idea if Atlantia does, but the main thing is, there are
                >>people out there who would be interested in your studies and in
                >>attending SCA classes once you have your materials together.
                >>
                >>- mokurai
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>Jess wrote:
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>>On the subject - has anyone seen the movies Onmyouji one and two?
                >>>
                >>>I stumbled upon them a while back and was quite impressed by the
                >>>details. Great costuming! (except for the monsters...)
                >>>
                >>>Apparently the movies are based on a book series based on a real
                >>>historical character - Abe no Seimei (I think I spelled that right)
                >>>who was a Court Onmyouji in the Heian jidai. I did a little internet
                >>>searching, and was immidiately interested in the subject, since I
                >>>already have a deep respect for Shinto, Buddhism, Tao, and
                >>>Confucious.
                >>>
                >>>I hope you get enough materials to do a class, I'll be there!
                >>>
                >>>- skmt
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >>>Yahoo! Groups Links
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>--
                >>For the uncontrolled there is no wisdom.
                >>For the uncontrolled there is no concentration,
                >>and for him without concentration, there is no peace.
                >>And for the unpeaceful how can there ever be happiness?
                >>- The Bhagavad Gita
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >>Yahoo! Groups Links
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >
                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >

                --
                For the uncontrolled there is no wisdom.
                For the uncontrolled there is no concentration,
                and for him without concentration, there is no peace.
                And for the unpeaceful how can there ever be happiness?
                - The Bhagavad Gita
              • Ii Saburou
                ... Onmyoji , the first one, really got me interested. The manga of the same name (which I believe is based on the book, or vice versa) also encouraged me.
                Message 7 of 20 , Feb 7, 2005
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                  On Mon, 7 Feb 2005, Jess wrote:

                  > On the subject - has anyone seen the movies Onmyouji one and two?
                  >
                  > I stumbled upon them a while back and was quite impressed by the
                  > details. Great costuming! (except for the monsters...)
                  >
                  > Apparently the movies are based on a book series based on a real
                  > historical character - Abe no Seimei (I think I spelled that right)
                  > who was a Court Onmyouji in the Heian jidai. I did a little internet
                  > searching, and was immidiately interested in the subject, since I
                  > already have a deep respect for Shinto, Buddhism, Tao, and
                  > Confucious.

                  "Onmyoji", the first one, really got me interested. The manga of the same
                  name (which I believe is based on the book, or vice versa) also encouraged
                  me.

                  Onmyoji 2 I have mixed feelings about. Some things are better, some are
                  cornier, depending on how much you know about Japanese history.

                  However, Abe no Seimei is perhaps the most famous Onmyoji, and much of
                  Onmyodo in Japan seems to be attributed to him and his studies. Since his
                  time, at least, the Abe family has been one of the major practitioners of
                  Onmyodo. There are many stories about him, both in historical accounts
                  and collections of tales (e.g. Konjaku Monogatari).

                  -Ii
                • Ii Saburou
                  ... Actually, Abe no Kotori and I are planning to have an Asian Night in Stierbach on this very issue next Monday ;). I hope to have a handout ready by then,
                  Message 8 of 20 , Feb 7, 2005
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                    On Mon, 7 Feb 2005, mokurai wrote:

                    > Guild. I have no idea if Atlantia does, but the main thing is, there are
                    > people out there who would be interested in your studies and in
                    > attending SCA classes once you have your materials together.
                    >
                    Actually, Abe no Kotori and I are planning to have an Asian Night in
                    Stierbach on this very issue next Monday ;). I hope to have a handout
                    ready by then, and I'll post it online when I am finished. I'm also
                    thinking of doing something at Pennsic.

                    -Ii
                  • James Eckman
                    ... Just #1 so far... ... Yep! ... The butterfly incident is apparently from the Nihongi? whichever of the classical books Royall Tyler translated. ...
                    Message 9 of 20 , Feb 7, 2005
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                      > From: "Jess" <skmt999@...>
                      >
                      >
                      >On the subject - has anyone seen the movies Onmyouji one and two?
                      >
                      >
                      Just #1 so far...

                      >I stumbled upon them a while back and was quite impressed by the
                      >details. Great costuming! (except for the monsters...)
                      >
                      >
                      Yep!

                      >Apparently the movies are based on a book series based on a real
                      >historical character - Abe no Seimei (I think I spelled that right)
                      >who was a Court Onmyouji in the Heian jidai.
                      >
                      The butterfly incident is apparently from the Nihongi? whichever of the
                      classical books Royall Tyler translated.

                      > From: ellen.m.davis@... I can envision it now: two onmyouji walk
                      > into a Pennsic camp, one starts whispering and pasting ofuda all over
                      > the place, while the other explains: "No, no-- your sump is in a
                      > highly inauspicious spot, you should fill it in and redig it over
                      > there!" Or wandering around the marketplace warning people of
                      > directional taboos: "My lady, you are going to the East Kingdom
                      > encampment? But that is east of here-- do you not know that the east
                      > direction is today sacred to Ten'ichi? Change your destination or risk
                      > angering the deity!"
                      >
                      Hehehe.... at night with good holographic equipment you could do the
                      butterfly trick!

                      > *walks off mumbling*, Tsuchimikado no Abe Kotori (don'cha know
                      > Seimei-sama was my great-uncle's second cousin twice removed?)
                      >
                      Oh, I'm not nearly so noble... I wonder what the Japanese release of
                      LOTR used for Wormtongue?

                      Jim Eckman
                    • Ii Saburou
                      ... Actually, it is from Uji Shui , translated by Royall Tyler in Japanese Tales . In that version it is a frog that is crushed with a blade of grass. Very
                      Message 10 of 20 , Feb 7, 2005
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                        On Mon, 7 Feb 2005, James Eckman wrote:

                        >> Apparently the movies are based on a book series based on a real
                        >> historical character - Abe no Seimei (I think I spelled that right)
                        >> who was a Court Onmyouji in the Heian jidai.
                        >>
                        > The butterfly incident is apparently from the Nihongi? whichever of the
                        > classical books Royall Tyler translated.

                        Actually, it is from 'Uji Shui', translated by Royall Tyler in 'Japanese
                        Tales'. In that version it is a frog that is crushed with a blade of
                        grass.

                        Very similar tale, though.

                        -Ii
                      • mokurai
                        ... Is that who I think it is? I can t keep up with the players. I need a score card. ... A handout for a monthly Asian night? *sigh* this is why you ll become
                        Message 11 of 20 , Feb 8, 2005
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                          Ii Saburou wrote:

                          >On Mon, 7 Feb 2005, mokurai wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >>Guild. I have no idea if Atlantia does, but the main thing is, there are
                          >>people out there who would be interested in your studies and in
                          >>attending SCA classes once you have your materials together.
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >Actually, Abe no Kotori
                          >

                          Is that who I think it is? I can't keep up with the players. I need a
                          score card.

                          >and I are planning to have an Asian Night in
                          >Stierbach on this very issue next Monday ;). I hope to have a handout
                          >ready by then, and I'll post it online when I am finished.
                          >

                          A handout for a monthly Asian night? *sigh* this is why you'll become a
                          laurel, Ii. For me Asian Nights were unstructured hang-outs with
                          occasional sparks of research or garbing. Maybe i need to move to
                          Washington.

                          > I'm also thinking of doing something at Pennsic.
                          >
                          >
                          You better!

                          - mo


                          --
                          For the uncontrolled there is no wisdom.
                          For the uncontrolled there is no concentration,
                          and for him without concentration, there is no peace.
                          And for the unpeaceful how can there ever be happiness?
                          - The Bhagavad Gita
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