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Hitoe or Kosode?

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  • Lisa McNeil
    Greetings! This is probably a very dumb question as I am sure I have overlooked the answer 100 times, but can someone explain to me the physical difference in
    Message 1 of 9 , Jan 31, 2005
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      Greetings!
      This is probably a very dumb question as I am sure I have
      overlooked the answer 100 times, but can someone explain to me the
      physical difference in the hitoe and the kosode? The obvious answer
      to me is the sleeves, but I am trying to contruct an outfit only
      knowing how to make a kosode. Would the basic principles of
      construction of these two garments be the same? Also, I have read
      *somewhere* (all the info is melding together at this point) that
      there was a garment worn in which in sleeves hung significantly
      longer than the hands. Was that an entirely different garment or
      was it a hitoe in which the wearer preferred the longer sleeves?

      Much thanks for any help for an absolute beginner!

      Milisandia Uxor Bran
    • sigrune@aol.com
      Greetings Milisandia, My understanding it the shape of the collar of the hitoe is slightly different in how it ends and the shape of the tapered partial panels
      Message 2 of 9 , Jan 31, 2005
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        Greetings Milisandia,

        My understanding it the shape of the collar of the hitoe is slightly different in how it ends and the shape of the tapered partial panels for the overlap. Secondly the hitoe is not sewn up the sides, and thirdly the hitoe has sleeves that are not fully attached to the body of the garment.

        Also there is a mention of there being darts in the back to create a double fold... not quite sure how it winds up laying then.

        Check out Baron Effingham;s website:
        http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/garb/garb.html
        there is a good picture of it, and it probably goes alot farther in explaining it than I can.

        -Takeda Sanjuichiro
      • Lisa McNeil
        Thank you for that information. That is a very handy website indeed. I was hoping to ask Lady Makiwara, if she is on this email list, of her website that
        Message 3 of 9 , Jan 31, 2005
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          Thank you for that information. That is a very handy website
          indeed. I was hoping to ask Lady Makiwara, if she is on this email
          list, of her website that describes the informal court costume of
          Medieval Japan. Using her very thoughtfully prepared instructions,
          I have taught myself the kosode, but I can't seem to find any
          instructions similar to the Hitoe and Uchiki. Does anyone have any
          good beginner's resources or instructions that would assist me in a
          very similar outfit as on her website?


          Again, much thanks.
          Milisandia

          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, sigrune@a... wrote:
          > Greetings Milisandia,
          >
          > My understanding it the shape of the collar of the hitoe is
          slightly different in how it ends and the shape of the tapered
          partial panels for the overlap. Secondly the hitoe is not sewn up
          the sides, and thirdly the hitoe has sleeves that are not fully
          attached to the body of the garment.
          >
          > Also there is a mention of there being darts in the back to create
          a double fold... not quite sure how it winds up laying then.
          >
          > Check out Baron Effingham;s website:
          > http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/garb/garb.html
          > there is a good picture of it, and it probably goes alot farther
          in explaining it than I can.
          >
          > -Takeda Sanjuichiro
        • Ii Saburou
          ... Okay, the hitoe has been gone over before (I recommend searching the archives for some of the discussion), but for this answer we shall use hitoe in
          Message 4 of 9 , Jan 31, 2005
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            On Mon, 31 Jan 2005, Lisa McNeil wrote:

            > Greetings!
            > This is probably a very dumb question as I am sure I have
            > overlooked the answer 100 times, but can someone explain to me the
            > physical difference in the hitoe and the kosode? The obvious answer
            > to me is the sleeves, but I am trying to contruct an outfit only
            > knowing how to make a kosode. Would the basic principles of
            > construction of these two garments be the same? Also, I have read
            > *somewhere* (all the info is melding together at this point) that
            > there was a garment worn in which in sleeves hung significantly
            > longer than the hands. Was that an entirely different garment or
            > was it a hitoe in which the wearer preferred the longer sleeves?

            Okay, the 'hitoe' has been gone over before (I recommend searching the
            archives for some of the discussion), but for this answer we shall use
            'hitoe' in the sense of 'the average garment shape of Heian women's
            clothing/robes'.

            For that purpose, the hitoe is similar to the kosode in terms of the
            pieces, but not necessarily in the overall shape.

            First, kosode tend to come down just to the ankle--the hitoe would be
            longer, so that it trails out beautifully when you are seated.

            Second, the sleeves of the kosode are sewn almost all the way together, so
            there is only a small (ko-) opening in the sleeve (-sode) for the hand.
            Furthermore, the outer-lower corner of the sleeve is almost always sewn in
            a curve, rather than letting the fabric come to a point. In hitoe, the
            sleeves are rectangular, and only sewn along the bottom seam to form a
            tube. They are they attached to the body on one side (although not
            fully).

            It is helpful, now, if we start to think in 'panel widths' of fabric. A
            typical kosode is probably three 'panel-widths' wide--two panels for the
            body (one left and one right) and one panel for both sleeves (a half-panel
            each; although I have seen full-panelled sleeves before). In the hitoe
            you have four panels: two for the body (left and right) and two for the
            sleeves (which are one panel each).

            Also, panel-width has changed over the years. 18"~20" (45cm~50cm) seems
            to be the norm for Heian period, while today's kimono fabric is about
            14"~16", in general. Whatever decision you make, the finished garment
            should be long enough to hide your hands (18"x4 = 72" ~ 6'0"; 20" x 4 =
            80" ~ 6'8"; outstretched, fingertip to fingertip, is usually about the
            same distance as your height)*.

            Collar (ERI)--depending on your pattern, this may or may not be the same.
            Hitoe collars were usually fairly wide, and then folded down artfully at
            the neck and basted down so they appeared to be multiple collars.

            Front panels (OKUMI)--these are probably the same as whatever pattern you
            have, being uneven trapezoids running from about 7cm at the top to 1/2
            panel-width at the bottom. On unpatterned silk you can cheat and get both
            of them out of a single piece of 1/2-width silk. In the Heian period it
            appears they usually attached with the short side (the straight side--with
            the grain of the fabric) to the body; later garments would attach the long
            side (along the bias) to the body, as this seems to have helped the drape
            of the fabric, overall.

            Specific questions? I can look it up in Jidai Isho no Nuikata, if you'd
            like.

            -Ii


            *Yes, I know I didn't take any of the seam allowance into consideration.
            Also, I don't believe it had to hide your hands at full extension, you
            just want to be able to hide them, generally, but not have them so long as
            to cause problems, either.
          • Ii Saburou
            ... You are thinking of a man s hitoe which isn t sewn up the sides. A woman s hitoe is. Different garments, really. ... That s the man s, again. -Ii
            Message 5 of 9 , Jan 31, 2005
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              On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 sigrune@... wrote:

              > My understanding it the shape of the collar of the hitoe is slightly
              > different in how it ends and the shape of the tapered partial panels for
              > the overlap. Secondly the hitoe is not sewn up the sides, and thirdly
              > the hitoe has sleeves that are not fully attached to the body of the
              > garment.

              You are thinking of a man's hitoe which isn't sewn up the sides. A
              woman's hitoe is. Different garments, really.

              > Also there is a mention of there being darts in the back to create a
              > double fold... not quite sure how it winds up laying then.

              That's the man's, again.

              -Ii
            • makiwara_no_yetsuko
              ... I made my hakama, kosode, hitoe, uchiki using the instructions at: http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/japanese/Jap123s.html I m SURE this website is
              Message 6 of 9 , Jan 31, 2005
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                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa McNeil"
                <milisandiauxorbran@y...> wrote:
                >
                > Thank you for that information. That is a very handy website
                > indeed. I was hoping to ask Lady Makiwara, if she is on this email
                > list, of her website that describes the informal court costume of
                > Medieval Japan. Using her very thoughtfully prepared instructions,
                > I have taught myself the kosode, but I can't seem to find any
                > instructions similar to the Hitoe and Uchiki.

                I made my hakama, kosode, hitoe, uchiki using the instructions at:
                http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/japanese/Jap123s.html

                I'm SURE this website is referenced in both "I Am The Display" and
                "Kosode Made Simple." Multiple times.

                I think Takeda-dono is referring to men's garments in his post, as
                there are some construction differences.

                For Heian women's clothing, a white kosode is your innermost layer and
                has a sewn up front sleeve edge. It will eventually evolve into
                outerwear (and ultimately become the kimono) as court fashions lose
                their popularity except for ceremonial occasions. Think of it as your
                chemise or undershirt. Hitoe are the (unlined) middle layer(s), which
                can be various colors, depending on how you wish to display your
                knowledge and good taste. (Get hold of Liza Dalby's "Kimono:
                Fashioning Culture," if you can. It has a full chapter on Heian color
                combinations that I found extremely useful!) These should be long
                enough to show the colors at the hem and wide sleeve openings. Now,
                think of the uchiki as your "coat," to be worn on top of everything
                else. Again, the sleeves should be wide enough to show the color
                layer(s) beneath.

                Construction-wise, all the pieces go together in more or less the same
                way as kosode, it's just that the sleeves will not have sewn up front
                edges and will not have a curved front edge.

                Feel free to direct further questions to me at wodeford at yahoo dot
                com or at makiwara_no_yetsuko at yahoo dot com

                Makiwara
              • Ii Saburou
                ... Check this out: http://fibers.destinyslobster.com/Japanese/Clothes/japmakekimono.htm It is from the Fiber Arts page of Anne Liese Wolkenhaar. It is good
                Message 7 of 9 , Jan 31, 2005
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                  On Mon, 31 Jan 2005, Lisa McNeil wrote:

                  > Thank you for that information. That is a very handy website
                  > indeed. I was hoping to ask Lady Makiwara, if she is on this email
                  > list, of her website that describes the informal court costume of
                  > Medieval Japan. Using her very thoughtfully prepared instructions,
                  > I have taught myself the kosode, but I can't seem to find any
                  > instructions similar to the Hitoe and Uchiki. Does anyone have any
                  > good beginner's resources or instructions that would assist me in a
                  > very similar outfit as on her website?

                  Check this out:
                  http://fibers.destinyslobster.com/Japanese/Clothes/japmakekimono.htm

                  It is from the Fiber Arts page of Anne Liese Wolkenhaar. It is good for
                  the basics of the garment. Pay attentiontto things like sleeves, though.
                  If you are doing a hitoe, you don't want the sleeves fully attached to the
                  body. See some examples here:

                  http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/wayou/7.htm
                  SOKUTAI (formal outfit):
                  1. Taregami (her hair)
                  2. Karaginu (outermost robe, lit. 'Chinese Clothe')
                  3. Uwagi (lit. 'Outer Wear')
                  4. Uchiginu (next layer)
                  5. Kinu (Uchiki) (another robe to add body)
                  6. Hitoe (single layer underrobe)
                  7. Haribakakama (Uchibakama) (Her hakama)
                  8. Mo (the skirt)
                  9. Mo no Kogoshi (The front mo ties, hanging down)
                  10. Mo no Hikigoshi (the trailing mo ties)
                  11. Hiogi (Akomeougi) (Her fan)
                  12. Tatou (Paper, probably for impromptu poetry)
                  13. Binsogi (the locks of hair hanging in front)


                  http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/wayou/19.htm
                  Itsutsuginu Kouchiki (5-layers with Small Uchiki)
                  1. Binsogi (the locks of hair hanging in front)
                  2. Kouchiki (Small Uchiki--smaller than normal, probably to show off the
                  robes underneath it)
                  3. Kinu (Uchiki/Itsutsuginu) (five layers of robes, sometimes all one
                  garment, and you can cheat and do five collars, five sleeves, and five
                  trains, but not do five layers for the main part of the upper body--it's
                  a period cheat, too.)
                  4. Hitoe
                  5. Aka no Hakama (red hakama)
                  6. Akomeougi (Hiougi) (The fan)
                  7. Sagegami (Guessing on the pronunciation, but it is just referring to
                  the hair).

                  Hope those help.

                  -Ii
                • Lisa McNeil
                  Lady Makiwara wrote: I made my hakama, kosode, hitoe, uchiki using the instructions at: http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/japanese/Jap123s.html I m SURE
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jan 31, 2005
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                    Lady Makiwara wrote:
                    "I made my hakama, kosode, hitoe, uchiki using the instructions at:
                    http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/japanese/Jap123s.html

                    I'm SURE this website is referenced in both "I Am The Display" and
                    "Kosode Made Simple." Multiple times."

                    Thank you for the information on your website. I did see this
                    reference, multiple times, yet when I click this link, I only see
                    instructions for the Kosode and Hakama. Is there another page that
                    is perhaps no longer online that speaks to the hitoe and uchiki? It
                    is actually the instructions on
                    the Reconstructing History website that prompted me to ask the
                    question on the difference between the kosode and hitoe, since I
                    can't seem to find anywhere that explains how the hitoe would be
                    laid out and cut differently than the kosode.

                    Thank you for your help on this matter.

                    Milisandia
                  • makiwara_no_yetsuko
                    ... Layout and cutting are pretty much the same, you just might want to make the kosode shorter if you re planning on stuffing it all under a hakama. The only
                    Message 9 of 9 , Jan 31, 2005
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                      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa McNeil"
                      <milisandiauxorbran@y...> wrote:
                      > It
                      > is actually the instructions on
                      > the Reconstructing History website that prompted me to ask the
                      > question on the difference between the kosode and hitoe, since I
                      > can't seem to find anywhere that explains how the hitoe would be
                      > laid out and cut differently than the kosode.

                      Layout and cutting are pretty much the same, you just might want to
                      make the kosode shorter if you're planning on stuffing it all under a
                      hakama. The only major difference is the sleeve shape and construction.

                      Makiwara
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