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Onmyou-do/Yin-Yang Divination

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  • Ii Saburou
    Greetings everyone! I have a question that crosses the borders of China and Japan, so apologies to those who are on both lists. I have recently become more and
    Message 1 of 20 , Jan 29, 2005
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      Greetings everyone!

      I have a question that crosses the borders of China and Japan, so
      apologies to those who are on both lists.

      I have recently become more and more intrigued by the Japanese
      Onmyou-Ryou, the Bureau of Yin-Yang Divination in Japan. It was
      originally based on the calendarical and divination studies done in China,
      and incorporated bits of local Shinto and Buddhism as well.

      I'm currently studying the I-Ching and how it was used; I've found one
      reference to a method of throwing the I-Ching based on commentaries
      reportedly written by Confucius.

      Question #1: Do we know if they divined using the I-Ching in Japan, or if
      they just used it as a reference for their other calculations?

      Essentially it goes:

      Set up the I-Ching on a cloth on a table facing south. The diviner should
      face north, and three sticks of incense should be burned during the
      divination. (Note: The Superior Person was supposed to sit in the North
      and look South, so the reasoning given is that the diviner should be
      facing the Superior Person--or deity--which he is entreating. I don't
      believe this is the I-Ching--that is simply there to help the diviner
      understand the determination.)

      As Diviner, take 50 yarrow stalks* in your left hand.
      Remove one and place it on the table in front of you.
      Group them in two bundles (don't count, just make two bundles or many
      stalks).
      Take one stalk from the right hand and put it between the ring and little
      fingers of the left hand.
      Manipulation of the Stalks:
      Take away four stalks at a time from the bundle in the left hand and place
      them in reserve until you are left with 4 or less.
      Do the same with the bundle in your right hand.
      Discard all of the leftover stalks in your hand on the table (should be
      either 5 or 9 stalks).
      Take up the bundle in reserve and split it in two.
      Repeat the Manipulation two more times (these next two times you will end
      up with 4 or 8 stalks).

      After three manipulations, you should have 24, 28, 32, or 36 stalks in
      your hand.
      Remove them four at a time and count how many times it takes.
      You will have a number: 6, 7, 8, or 9.
      6 = Greater Yin
      7 = Lesser Yang
      8 = Lesser Yin
      9 = Greater Yang

      Greater Yin or Yang indicates a 'moving' YAO (one of the lines in a
      trigram or hexagram, which in turn are called GUA).

      Mark this as the lowermost YAO and move up.

      Continue for 6 more YAO (so a total of 18 manipulations).


      The more I look at this, the more I want to do a class on it (as well as
      the 5 elements, the zodiac, etc.), but I also think it would make a
      wonderful performance. I'm just not sure how to do it properly. There
      are people for whom this is still a religion, and I'm not sure if a
      demonstration would seem like a non-Christian demonstrating mass, and if
      it would be offensive. I'm also not sure if it would come under the
      religious exclusion clauses of the SCA.

      So, I wanted to get a feel--do people think that this would be a neat
      thing to have at an event? The manipulation, if practiced, would probably
      take at LEAST a half hour to perform fully. Then there is the reading to
      actually determine what it means according to the I-Ching, and then
      whether or not one wants to try to actually interpret what the I-Ching
      means for that particular instance.

      I'm also looking for more documentation on the setup, whether it was only
      performed in China, or whether it was also brought to Japan, etc.

      So, any thoughts on the topic?

      -Ii


      *According to Huang, the lengths varied depending on the person, but had
      to be large enough to be seen: 9 chi for an Emperor, 7 chi for a
      duke/prince, 5 chi for an official, 3 chi for literates (scholars? SHI?).
    • makiwara_no_yetsuko
      ... and if ... Ii-dono, my alter ego frequently teaches songs with Christian content. Jehanne believes that anyone interested in Western music during the
      Message 2 of 20 , Jan 29, 2005
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        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Ii Saburou <logan@m...> wrote:
        > There
        > are people for whom this is still a religion, and I'm not sure if a
        > demonstration would seem like a non-Christian demonstrating mass,
        and if
        > it would be offensive. I'm also not sure if it would come under the
        > religious exclusion clauses of the SCA.

        Ii-dono, my alter ego frequently teaches songs with Christian content.
        "Jehanne" believes that anyone interested in Western music during the
        medieval and Renaissance periods should just grow up, deal with the
        fact that the Church is responsible for the preservation of a great
        deal of what we know and appreciate said material for its aesthetic
        beauty. I've dealt with the matter by making certain that the activity
        and its content is announced well in advance of the event (usually on
        local e-groups and in any published class descriptions) and if at all
        possible, conducted in a separate room or area of the event site so
        that only those interested in participating may do so. (I do the same
        if I'm teaching songs with adult content.) I've yet to have anyone
        have a problem.

        Do keep us posted. It sounds like a fascinating topic.

        Makiwara
      • Otagiri Tatsuzou
        ... As a budding Neo-Confucist ... I would find it entirely appropriate. ... China, ... well as ... and if ... Divination in and of itself would probably not
        Message 3 of 20 , Jan 29, 2005
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          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Ii Saburou <logan@m...> wrote:
          > Greetings everyone!
          >
          > I have a question that crosses the borders of China and Japan, so
          > apologies to those who are on both lists.

          As a budding Neo-Confucist ... I would find it entirely appropriate.

          >
          > I have recently become more and more intrigued by the Japanese
          > Onmyou-Ryou, the Bureau of Yin-Yang Divination in Japan. It was
          > originally based on the calendarical and divination studies done in
          China,
          > and incorporated bits of local Shinto and Buddhism as well.
          >
          ...

          > The more I look at this, the more I want to do a class on it (as
          well as
          > the 5 elements, the zodiac, etc.), but I also think it would make a
          > wonderful performance. I'm just not sure how to do it properly. There
          > are people for whom this is still a religion, and I'm not sure if a
          > demonstration would seem like a non-Christian demonstrating mass,
          and if
          > it would be offensive. I'm also not sure if it would come under the
          > religious exclusion clauses of the SCA.
          >

          Divination in and of itself would probably not be considered religious
          activity by the SCA. It is often considered legal fraud if practised
          for money.

          > So, I wanted to get a feel--do people think that this would be a neat
          > thing to have at an event?

          I think it would make a very interesting class. I think it could be a
          powerful component for an Oriental persona in certain 'occasions' that
          occur in an SCA career (peer's vigil, pre-coronation, baronial
          investiture, ...)

          Otagiri
        • Otagiri Tatsuzou
          ... well as ... and if ... Rereading this I realized I missed part of the question ... the most important part. Would this be offensive to believers? I find it
          Message 4 of 20 , Jan 29, 2005
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            > The more I look at this, the more I want to do a class on it (as
            well as
            > the 5 elements, the zodiac, etc.), but I also think it would make a
            > wonderful performance. I'm just not sure how to do it properly. There
            > are people for whom this is still a religion, and I'm not sure if a
            > demonstration would seem like a non-Christian demonstrating mass,
            and if
            > it would be offensive. I'm also not sure if it would come under the
            > religious exclusion clauses of the SCA.
            >

            Rereading this I realized I missed part of the question ... the most
            important part. Would this be offensive to believers?

            I find it hard to believe that doing an i-ching reading would in and
            of itself be offensive, as it has been widely practised in some forms
            in the West by 'non-believers' since at least the sixties. But part of
            what you want to recreate is the full dress and ceremony of a
            'traditional' reading. Who knows whom this might offend? You might
            need to find someone in a Chinese-American community to help answer
            this. My guess is that it wouldn't be offensive to any Japanese.

            Ron
          • Elaine Koogler
            ... I personally think it sounds cool! I also think that if it s presented as a historical study of the art of divination as practiced in China and/or Japan
            Message 5 of 20 , Jan 29, 2005
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              Ii Saburou wrote:

              > Greetings everyone!
              >
              > I have a question that crosses the borders of China and Japan, so
              > apologies to those who are on both lists.
              >
              > I have recently become more and more intrigued by the Japanese
              > Onmyou-Ryou, the Bureau of Yin-Yang Divination in Japan. It was
              > originally based on the calendarical and divination studies done in
              > China,
              > and incorporated bits of local Shinto and Buddhism as well.
              >
              > I'm currently studying the I-Ching and how it was used; I've found one
              > reference to a method of throwing the I-Ching based on commentaries
              > reportedly written by Confucius.
              >
              > Question #1: Do we know if they divined using the I-Ching in Japan, or if
              > they just used it as a reference for their other calculations?
              >
              > Essentially it goes:
              >
              > Set up the I-Ching on a cloth on a table facing south. The diviner
              > should
              > face north, and three sticks of incense should be burned during the
              > divination. (Note: The Superior Person was supposed to sit in the North
              > and look South, so the reasoning given is that the diviner should be
              > facing the Superior Person--or deity--which he is entreating. I don't
              > believe this is the I-Ching--that is simply there to help the diviner
              > understand the determination.)
              >
              > As Diviner, take 50 yarrow stalks* in your left hand.
              > Remove one and place it on the table in front of you.
              > Group them in two bundles (don't count, just make two bundles or many
              > stalks).
              > Take one stalk from the right hand and put it between the ring and little
              > fingers of the left hand.
              > Manipulation of the Stalks:
              > Take away four stalks at a time from the bundle in the left hand and
              > place
              > them in reserve until you are left with 4 or less.
              > Do the same with the bundle in your right hand.
              > Discard all of the leftover stalks in your hand on the table (should be
              > either 5 or 9 stalks).
              > Take up the bundle in reserve and split it in two.
              > Repeat the Manipulation two more times (these next two times you will end
              > up with 4 or 8 stalks).
              >
              > After three manipulations, you should have 24, 28, 32, or 36 stalks in
              > your hand.
              > Remove them four at a time and count how many times it takes.
              > You will have a number: 6, 7, 8, or 9.
              > 6 = Greater Yin
              > 7 = Lesser Yang
              > 8 = Lesser Yin
              > 9 = Greater Yang
              >
              > Greater Yin or Yang indicates a 'moving' YAO (one of the lines in a
              > trigram or hexagram, which in turn are called GUA).
              >
              > Mark this as the lowermost YAO and move up.
              >
              > Continue for 6 more YAO (so a total of 18 manipulations).
              >
              >
              > The more I look at this, the more I want to do a class on it (as well as
              > the 5 elements, the zodiac, etc.), but I also think it would make a
              > wonderful performance. I'm just not sure how to do it properly. There
              > are people for whom this is still a religion, and I'm not sure if a
              > demonstration would seem like a non-Christian demonstrating mass, and if
              > it would be offensive. I'm also not sure if it would come under the
              > religious exclusion clauses of the SCA.
              >
              > So, I wanted to get a feel--do people think that this would be a neat
              > thing to have at an event? The manipulation, if practiced, would
              > probably
              > take at LEAST a half hour to perform fully. Then there is the reading to
              > actually determine what it means according to the I-Ching, and then
              > whether or not one wants to try to actually interpret what the I-Ching
              > means for that particular instance.
              >
              > I'm also looking for more documentation on the setup, whether it was only
              > performed in China, or whether it was also brought to Japan, etc.
              >
              > So, any thoughts on the topic?
              >
              > -Ii
              >
              >
              > *According to Huang, the lengths varied depending on the person, but had
              > to be large enough to be seen: 9 chi for an Emperor, 7 chi for a
              > duke/prince, 5 chi for an official, 3 chi for literates (scholars? SHI?).
              >
              >
              I personally think it sounds cool! I also think that if it's presented
              as a historical study of the art of divination as practiced in China
              and/or Japan in ancient times, it would be no different than the classes
              offered in period religious studies. You would not be promoting this as
              a way of life or as a religion, so it should be ok. IMHO!!

              Kiri
            • Solveig
              Ii Dono! Greetings from Solveig! 1) A class on Yin Yang divinition would not violate the religion and magic policy provided that you advertised that you be
              Message 6 of 20 , Jan 30, 2005
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                Ii Dono!

                Greetings from Solveig!

                1) A class on Yin Yang divinition would not violate the religion and
                magic policy
                provided that you advertised that you be performing the divinations and
                announced that you were doing so in class. The advertisement business is
                mostly a courtesy to those who might construe the performance as involving
                them counter to their own religious convictions. I doubt that
                they are actually
                required by Corpora or other policy as your class is not the
                "central area" of
                the event nor is it an events central activity.

                2) Given the general Japanese attitude toward these things, I very much doubt
                that you would be offending any Japanese provided that you not perform the
                divination in a mocking manner.

                3) I'm really not sure that the yarrow stick business is all that
                old. Yes, it does get
                mentioned on just about any treatise on Yi Ching divination and
                usually called an
                old method, however there is a long way between that and having
                it be a really
                antique method. There are of course other methods such as coin
                throwing which
                could be quite old. There is also the basic method of drawing a
                numbered lot
                from a shaker box such as practiced in modern shrines.

                I'm very suspicious of the yarrow stick method as it takes a very
                long time. I suppose
                that some diviners might have practiced it for the very wealthy, but
                other meathods
                must have been regularly used.

                --

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar

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              • Ii Saburou
                ... I see what you mean, at least regarding the method. Yarrow stalks appear to have been the medium, but the method may have been different. According to
                Message 7 of 20 , Jan 30, 2005
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                  On Sun, 30 Jan 2005, Solveig wrote:

                  > 3) I'm really not sure that the yarrow stick business is all that
                  > old. Yes, it does get
                  > mentioned on just about any treatise on Yi Ching divination and
                  > usually called an
                  > old method, however there is a long way between that and having
                  > it be a really
                  > antique method. There are of course other methods such as coin
                  > throwing which
                  > could be quite old. There is also the basic method of drawing a
                  > numbered lot
                  > from a shaker box such as practiced in modern shrines.

                  I see what you mean, at least regarding the method. Yarrow stalks appear
                  to have been the medium, but the method may have been different.

                  According to Alfred Huang: "The yarrow stalk oracle became popular in the
                  Zhou dynasty, about three thousand years ago." The different lengths of
                  the yarrow he takes from "The Book of Rites of the Zhou Dynasty". He says
                  that "The modern method of yarrow stalk oracle is based on Confucius's
                  descriptions in The Great Treatise, the fifth wing:

                  The number of the Great Expansion is fifty,
                  Of which forty-nine are used.
                  Divide them into two, symbolizing the two primary forces.
                  Suspend one, symbolizing the three supreme powers.
                  Manipulate by four, symbolizing the four seasons.
                  Return the remainder, symbolizing the intercalary month.
                  In five years there is another intercalation.
                  Afterward the process is repeated.

                  Therefore four operations produce a change,
                  And eighteen yields a gua.

                  The yarrow stalk oracle has been considered the classical way of
                  consulting the I Ching."

                  I realize that the attributions to Confucius are probably written by
                  someone else. However, it does seem plausible, and I don't see length of
                  time being an issue, at least not for public divinations--the Chinese
                  definitely don't seem to have been adverse to ritual.

                  The three coin oracle he attributes to "The Correct Significance of Rites"
                  of the Tang dynasty (618-907) and he says it became popular during the
                  Sothern Sung dynasty (1127-1279) when it was promoted by the I-Ching
                  scholar Shao Yun.

                  > I'm very suspicious of the yarrow stick method as it takes a very
                  > long time. I suppose
                  > that some diviners might have practiced it for the very wealthy, but
                  > other meathods
                  > must have been regularly used.

                  True, but I'm thinking more of the official rituals. I don't know how
                  much private divination played a part in the lives of people. Early Shang
                  divinations seem to have been about all sorts of minor details, but yet
                  they were said to have been performed by the King, which would seem to
                  indicate the people involved were somewhat important in the society.

                  -Ii
                • Park McKellop
                  Stalks of Yarrow growing on, or near the tomb of Confucius are supposed to be the best, but that doesn t prove its age either. ;-) Alcyoneus 3) I m really not
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jan 31, 2005
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                    Stalks of Yarrow growing on, or near the tomb of Confucius are supposed to be the best, but that doesn't prove its age either. ;-)

                    Alcyoneus

                    3) I'm really not sure that the yarrow stick business is all that old.

                    Yes, it does get mentioned on just about any treatise on Yi Ching divination and usually called an old method, however there is a long way between that and having it be a really
                    antique method.


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                  • Otagiri Tatsuzou
                    ... divination and usually called an old method, however there is a long way between that and having it be a really ... supposed to be the best, but that
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jan 31, 2005
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                      > Lady Solveig wrote:
                      > 3) I'm really not sure that the yarrow stick business is all that old.
                      >
                      > Yes, it does get mentioned on just about any treatise on Yi Ching
                      divination and usually called an old method, however there is a long
                      way between that and having it be a really
                      > antique method.
                      >

                      > Baron Alcyoneus wrote:
                      > Stalks of Yarrow growing on, or near the tomb of Confucius are
                      supposed to be the best, but that doesn't prove its age either. ;-)
                      >

                      From Li Ki (The Book of Rites) Book 1 Part V
                      6. 22. External undertakings should be commenced on the odd days, and
                      internal on the even[1]. 23. In all cases of divining about a day,
                      whether by the tortoise-shell or the stalks, if it be beyond the
                      decade, it is said, 'on such and such a distant day,' and if within
                      the decade, 'on such and such a near day.' For matters of mourning a
                      distant day is preferred; for festive matters a near day[2]. 24. It is
                      said, 'For the day we depend on thee, O great Tortoise-shell, which
                      dost give the regular indications; we depend on you, O great Divining
                      Stalks, which give the regular indications.' 25. Divination by the
                      shell or the stalks should not go beyond three times. 26. The shell
                      and the stalks should not be both used on the same subject[3]. 27.
                      Divination by the shell is called pû; by the stalks, shih. The two
                      were the methods by which the ancient sage kings made the people
                      believe in seasons and days, revere spiritual beings, stand in awe of
                      their laws and orders; the methods (also) by which they made them
                      determine their perplexities and settle their misgivings. Hence it is
                      said, 'If you doubted, and have consulted the stalks, you need not
                      (any longer) think that you will do wrong. If the day (be clearly
                      indicated), boldly do on it (what you desire to do).'
                      http://www.sacred-texts.com/cfu/liki/liki01.htm

                      The Li Ki is one of the 'Five Chinese Classics'. This title is usually
                      translated the Book of Rites. The work is a compilation of assorted
                      texts which describe Chinese religious practices from the eighth to
                      the fifth century B.C. It was first written down about 200 B.C.

                      A google search for divination and stalks at sacred-texts.com
                      http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Asacred-texts.com+divination+stalks

                      Otagiri
                    • Park McKellop
                      Solveig wrote: I m very suspicious of the yarrow stick method as it takes a very long time. I suppose that some diviners might have
                      Message 10 of 20 , Feb 1, 2005
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                        Solveig <nostrand@...> wrote:
                        I'm very suspicious of the yarrow stick method as it takes a very
                        long time. I suppose
                        that some diviners might have practiced it for the very wealthy, but
                        other meathods
                        must have been regularly used.

                        --



                        Would it take as long as oracle bones?

                        Alcyoneus



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                      • Ii Saburou
                        ... I just read an account that is supposed to describe how the tortoise shell and deer scapulae divinations were probably done (unfortunately, I m not sure of
                        Message 11 of 20 , Feb 2, 2005
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                          On Tue, 1 Feb 2005, Park McKellop wrote:

                          > Would it take as long as oracle bones?
                          >
                          I just read an account that is supposed to describe how the tortoise shell
                          and deer scapulae divinations were probably done (unfortunately, I'm not
                          sure of their sources :( ), accompanying a bunch of the actual texts with
                          translations. According to that source (a Chinese anthology of
                          literature), a packed earth mound was made inside a hut, a poker was
                          heated, and five shells were 'tested'. Furthermore, they would ask
                          multiple times (so five times they would say "Father Yi is the source of
                          the toothache...(test)....Father Yi is not the source of the toothache...
                          (test)..." and then go on to another question "Father Zhang is the source
                          of the toothache...(test)...Father Zhang is not the source of the
                          toothache...(test)") the described test took 15 shells, with two
                          questions per shell (positive and negative), and also included a sacrifice
                          and questioning the entrails just in case. That seems to me like it would
                          take quite a long time as well (and be extremely product intensive--at
                          least 15 tortoise shells in that one divination, and then getting a fire
                          ready, etc.), so I could easily see that being just as long.

                          -Ii
                        • Jess
                          On the subject - has anyone seen the movies Onmyouji one and two? I stumbled upon them a while back and was quite impressed by the details. Great costuming!
                          Message 12 of 20 , Feb 7, 2005
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                            On the subject - has anyone seen the movies Onmyouji one and two?

                            I stumbled upon them a while back and was quite impressed by the
                            details. Great costuming! (except for the monsters...)

                            Apparently the movies are based on a book series based on a real
                            historical character - Abe no Seimei (I think I spelled that right)
                            who was a Court Onmyouji in the Heian jidai. I did a little internet
                            searching, and was immidiately interested in the subject, since I
                            already have a deep respect for Shinto, Buddhism, Tao, and
                            Confucious.

                            I hope you get enough materials to do a class, I'll be there!

                            - skmt
                          • mokurai
                            You all remind me of the fact that the East Kingdom has a Soothsayer s Guild. I have no idea if Atlantia does, but the main thing is, there are people out
                            Message 13 of 20 , Feb 7, 2005
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                              You all remind me of the fact that the East Kingdom has a Soothsayer's
                              Guild. I have no idea if Atlantia does, but the main thing is, there are
                              people out there who would be interested in your studies and in
                              attending SCA classes once you have your materials together.

                              - mokurai



                              Jess wrote:

                              >On the subject - has anyone seen the movies Onmyouji one and two?
                              >
                              >I stumbled upon them a while back and was quite impressed by the
                              >details. Great costuming! (except for the monsters...)
                              >
                              >Apparently the movies are based on a book series based on a real
                              >historical character - Abe no Seimei (I think I spelled that right)
                              >who was a Court Onmyouji in the Heian jidai. I did a little internet
                              >searching, and was immidiately interested in the subject, since I
                              >already have a deep respect for Shinto, Buddhism, Tao, and
                              >Confucious.
                              >
                              >I hope you get enough materials to do a class, I'll be there!
                              >
                              >- skmt
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
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                              >Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
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                              >
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                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >

                              --
                              For the uncontrolled there is no wisdom.
                              For the uncontrolled there is no concentration,
                              and for him without concentration, there is no peace.
                              And for the unpeaceful how can there ever be happiness?
                              - The Bhagavad Gita
                            • ellen.m.davis@att.net
                              I ve been intending to contact the head of the Soothsayers Guild for a while now, to discuss setting up an Atlantian branch office of sorts. Ii and I have
                              Message 14 of 20 , Feb 7, 2005
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                                I've been intending to contact the head of the Soothsayers' Guild for a while now, to discuss setting up an Atlantian branch office of sorts. Ii and I have seriously discussed forming the "Abe" clan, partially to serve as sort of a roaming Onmyoudo/divinatory/Feng Shui police (not in Tengusanji, of course).

                                I can envision it now: two onmyouji walk into a Pennsic camp, one starts whispering and pasting ofuda all over the place, while the other explains: "No, no-- your sump is in a highly inauspicious spot, you should fill it in and redig it over there!" Or wandering around the marketplace warning people of directional taboos: "My lady, you are going to the East Kingdom encampment? But that is east of here-- do you not know that the east direction is today sacred to Ten'ichi? Change your destination or risk angering the deity!"

                                *walks off mumbling*,
                                Tsuchimikado no Abe Kotori (don'cha know Seimei-sama was my great-uncle's second cousin twice removed?)

                                -------------- Original message from mokurai <mokurai@...>: --------------


                                >
                                > You all remind me of the fact that the East Kingdom has a Soothsayer's
                                > Guild. I have no idea if Atlantia does, but the main thing is, there are
                                > people out there who would be interested in your studies and in
                                > attending SCA classes once you have your materials together.
                                >
                                > - mokurai
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Jess wrote:
                                >
                                > >On the subject - has anyone seen the movies Onmyouji one and two?
                                > >
                                > >I stumbled upon them a while back and was quite impressed by the
                                > >details. Great costuming! (except for the monsters...)
                                > >
                                > >Apparently the movies are based on a book series based on a real
                                > >historical character - Abe no Seimei (I think I spelled that right)
                                > >who was a Court Onmyouji in the Heian jidai. I did a little internet
                                > >searching, and was immidiately interested in the subject, since I
                                > >already have a deep respect for Shinto, Buddhism, Tao, and
                                > >Confucious.
                                > >
                                > >I hope you get enough materials to do a class, I'll be there!
                                > >
                                > >- skmt
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                > --
                                > For the uncontrolled there is no wisdom.
                                > For the uncontrolled there is no concentration,
                                > and for him without concentration, there is no peace.
                                > And for the unpeaceful how can there ever be happiness?
                                > - The Bhagavad Gita
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • mokurai
                                LOL I love it. Gambatte! - mo ... -- For the uncontrolled there is no wisdom. For the uncontrolled there is no concentration, and for him without
                                Message 15 of 20 , Feb 7, 2005
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                                  LOL
                                  I love it. Gambatte!

                                  - mo


                                  ellen.m.davis@... wrote:

                                  >I've been intending to contact the head of the Soothsayers' Guild for a while now, to discuss setting up an Atlantian branch office of sorts. Ii and I have seriously discussed forming the "Abe" clan, partially to serve as sort of a roaming Onmyoudo/divinatory/Feng Shui police (not in Tengusanji, of course).
                                  >
                                  >I can envision it now: two onmyouji walk into a Pennsic camp, one starts whispering and pasting ofuda all over the place, while the other explains: "No, no-- your sump is in a highly inauspicious spot, you should fill it in and redig it over there!" Or wandering around the marketplace warning people of directional taboos: "My lady, you are going to the East Kingdom encampment? But that is east of here-- do you not know that the east direction is today sacred to Ten'ichi? Change your destination or risk angering the deity!"
                                  >
                                  >*walks off mumbling*,
                                  >Tsuchimikado no Abe Kotori (don'cha know Seimei-sama was my great-uncle's second cousin twice removed?)
                                  >
                                  >-------------- Original message from mokurai <mokurai@...>: --------------
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >>You all remind me of the fact that the East Kingdom has a Soothsayer's
                                  >>Guild. I have no idea if Atlantia does, but the main thing is, there are
                                  >>people out there who would be interested in your studies and in
                                  >>attending SCA classes once you have your materials together.
                                  >>
                                  >>- mokurai
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>Jess wrote:
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>>On the subject - has anyone seen the movies Onmyouji one and two?
                                  >>>
                                  >>>I stumbled upon them a while back and was quite impressed by the
                                  >>>details. Great costuming! (except for the monsters...)
                                  >>>
                                  >>>Apparently the movies are based on a book series based on a real
                                  >>>historical character - Abe no Seimei (I think I spelled that right)
                                  >>>who was a Court Onmyouji in the Heian jidai. I did a little internet
                                  >>>searching, and was immidiately interested in the subject, since I
                                  >>>already have a deep respect for Shinto, Buddhism, Tao, and
                                  >>>Confucious.
                                  >>>
                                  >>>I hope you get enough materials to do a class, I'll be there!
                                  >>>
                                  >>>- skmt
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>>UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  >>>Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>--
                                  >>For the uncontrolled there is no wisdom.
                                  >>For the uncontrolled there is no concentration,
                                  >>and for him without concentration, there is no peace.
                                  >>And for the unpeaceful how can there ever be happiness?
                                  >>- The Bhagavad Gita
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  >>Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >
                                  >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >

                                  --
                                  For the uncontrolled there is no wisdom.
                                  For the uncontrolled there is no concentration,
                                  and for him without concentration, there is no peace.
                                  And for the unpeaceful how can there ever be happiness?
                                  - The Bhagavad Gita
                                • Ii Saburou
                                  ... Onmyoji , the first one, really got me interested. The manga of the same name (which I believe is based on the book, or vice versa) also encouraged me.
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Feb 7, 2005
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                                    On Mon, 7 Feb 2005, Jess wrote:

                                    > On the subject - has anyone seen the movies Onmyouji one and two?
                                    >
                                    > I stumbled upon them a while back and was quite impressed by the
                                    > details. Great costuming! (except for the monsters...)
                                    >
                                    > Apparently the movies are based on a book series based on a real
                                    > historical character - Abe no Seimei (I think I spelled that right)
                                    > who was a Court Onmyouji in the Heian jidai. I did a little internet
                                    > searching, and was immidiately interested in the subject, since I
                                    > already have a deep respect for Shinto, Buddhism, Tao, and
                                    > Confucious.

                                    "Onmyoji", the first one, really got me interested. The manga of the same
                                    name (which I believe is based on the book, or vice versa) also encouraged
                                    me.

                                    Onmyoji 2 I have mixed feelings about. Some things are better, some are
                                    cornier, depending on how much you know about Japanese history.

                                    However, Abe no Seimei is perhaps the most famous Onmyoji, and much of
                                    Onmyodo in Japan seems to be attributed to him and his studies. Since his
                                    time, at least, the Abe family has been one of the major practitioners of
                                    Onmyodo. There are many stories about him, both in historical accounts
                                    and collections of tales (e.g. Konjaku Monogatari).

                                    -Ii
                                  • Ii Saburou
                                    ... Actually, Abe no Kotori and I are planning to have an Asian Night in Stierbach on this very issue next Monday ;). I hope to have a handout ready by then,
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Feb 7, 2005
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                                      On Mon, 7 Feb 2005, mokurai wrote:

                                      > Guild. I have no idea if Atlantia does, but the main thing is, there are
                                      > people out there who would be interested in your studies and in
                                      > attending SCA classes once you have your materials together.
                                      >
                                      Actually, Abe no Kotori and I are planning to have an Asian Night in
                                      Stierbach on this very issue next Monday ;). I hope to have a handout
                                      ready by then, and I'll post it online when I am finished. I'm also
                                      thinking of doing something at Pennsic.

                                      -Ii
                                    • James Eckman
                                      ... Just #1 so far... ... Yep! ... The butterfly incident is apparently from the Nihongi? whichever of the classical books Royall Tyler translated. ...
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Feb 7, 2005
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                                        > From: "Jess" <skmt999@...>
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >On the subject - has anyone seen the movies Onmyouji one and two?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        Just #1 so far...

                                        >I stumbled upon them a while back and was quite impressed by the
                                        >details. Great costuming! (except for the monsters...)
                                        >
                                        >
                                        Yep!

                                        >Apparently the movies are based on a book series based on a real
                                        >historical character - Abe no Seimei (I think I spelled that right)
                                        >who was a Court Onmyouji in the Heian jidai.
                                        >
                                        The butterfly incident is apparently from the Nihongi? whichever of the
                                        classical books Royall Tyler translated.

                                        > From: ellen.m.davis@... I can envision it now: two onmyouji walk
                                        > into a Pennsic camp, one starts whispering and pasting ofuda all over
                                        > the place, while the other explains: "No, no-- your sump is in a
                                        > highly inauspicious spot, you should fill it in and redig it over
                                        > there!" Or wandering around the marketplace warning people of
                                        > directional taboos: "My lady, you are going to the East Kingdom
                                        > encampment? But that is east of here-- do you not know that the east
                                        > direction is today sacred to Ten'ichi? Change your destination or risk
                                        > angering the deity!"
                                        >
                                        Hehehe.... at night with good holographic equipment you could do the
                                        butterfly trick!

                                        > *walks off mumbling*, Tsuchimikado no Abe Kotori (don'cha know
                                        > Seimei-sama was my great-uncle's second cousin twice removed?)
                                        >
                                        Oh, I'm not nearly so noble... I wonder what the Japanese release of
                                        LOTR used for Wormtongue?

                                        Jim Eckman
                                      • Ii Saburou
                                        ... Actually, it is from Uji Shui , translated by Royall Tyler in Japanese Tales . In that version it is a frog that is crushed with a blade of grass. Very
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Feb 7, 2005
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                                          On Mon, 7 Feb 2005, James Eckman wrote:

                                          >> Apparently the movies are based on a book series based on a real
                                          >> historical character - Abe no Seimei (I think I spelled that right)
                                          >> who was a Court Onmyouji in the Heian jidai.
                                          >>
                                          > The butterfly incident is apparently from the Nihongi? whichever of the
                                          > classical books Royall Tyler translated.

                                          Actually, it is from 'Uji Shui', translated by Royall Tyler in 'Japanese
                                          Tales'. In that version it is a frog that is crushed with a blade of
                                          grass.

                                          Very similar tale, though.

                                          -Ii
                                        • mokurai
                                          ... Is that who I think it is? I can t keep up with the players. I need a score card. ... A handout for a monthly Asian night? *sigh* this is why you ll become
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Feb 8, 2005
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                                            Ii Saburou wrote:

                                            >On Mon, 7 Feb 2005, mokurai wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >>Guild. I have no idea if Atlantia does, but the main thing is, there are
                                            >>people out there who would be interested in your studies and in
                                            >>attending SCA classes once you have your materials together.
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >Actually, Abe no Kotori
                                            >

                                            Is that who I think it is? I can't keep up with the players. I need a
                                            score card.

                                            >and I are planning to have an Asian Night in
                                            >Stierbach on this very issue next Monday ;). I hope to have a handout
                                            >ready by then, and I'll post it online when I am finished.
                                            >

                                            A handout for a monthly Asian night? *sigh* this is why you'll become a
                                            laurel, Ii. For me Asian Nights were unstructured hang-outs with
                                            occasional sparks of research or garbing. Maybe i need to move to
                                            Washington.

                                            > I'm also thinking of doing something at Pennsic.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            You better!

                                            - mo


                                            --
                                            For the uncontrolled there is no wisdom.
                                            For the uncontrolled there is no concentration,
                                            and for him without concentration, there is no peace.
                                            And for the unpeaceful how can there ever be happiness?
                                            - The Bhagavad Gita
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