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Weapon question

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  • Camber
    is there any documentation on a Japanese style weapon like a two bladed sword?... I.e. Blades on either end of a staff?
    Message 1 of 22 , Jan 29, 2005
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      is there any documentation on a Japanese style weapon like a two
      bladed sword?... I.e. Blades on either end of a staff?
    • sigrune@aol.com
      Greetings, To my knowldge there is no weapon approaching a dual ended sword. About as close as we come in Japanese weapons is the Naginata, which is single
      Message 2 of 22 , Jan 29, 2005
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        Greetings,

        To my knowldge there is no weapon approaching a dual ended sword. About as close as we come in Japanese weapons is the Naginata, which is single bladed, but sometimes has either a relitively heavy weight (about a half pound) on the other end, or a metal tipped point. (not sharp but pointy) These prodivided counterbalance to the blade, protected the shaft from splitting, gave a convienient tip to jab into the ground when a spear rack was not convenient, and was a good focal point for striking your opponent in strikes of opportunity, but was not the primary "business end."

        Japanese polearm work (with the exception of the Ono type weapons) tend to rely on the ability for the user to change position along the shaft quickly. One can either choke up on it or go to the end to get maximum reach or leverage, a dual ended sword does not fit this style.

        Some people may want to point out Jo-do and the staff/stick arts of Japan for emphasizing why these weapons would be practical... They would not, simply because those arts as well rely on being able to use the full length of a staff both as a striking surface, and as a gripping surface. With these things in mind it is doubtful that the Japanese even produced a single prototype for you to track down.

        I think 8-bit theater said it best with... "Sword-chucks"
        Hope this helps,

        -Takeda Sanjuichiro
      • Ii Saburou
        ... In fact, the ishi-dzuki as it is called, is often used in naginata kata to strike or jab. ... I would argue that you would have had techniques change to
        Message 3 of 22 , Jan 29, 2005
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          On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 sigrune@... wrote:

          > Greetings,
          >
          > To my knowldge there is no weapon approaching a dual ended sword.
          > About as close as we come in Japanese weapons is the Naginata, which is
          > single bladed, but sometimes has either a relitively heavy weight (about
          > a half pound) on the other end, or a metal tipped point. (not sharp but
          > pointy) These prodivided counterbalance to the blade, protected the
          > shaft from splitting, gave a convienient tip to jab into the ground when
          > a spear rack was not convenient, and was a good focal point for striking
          > your opponent in strikes of opportunity, but was not the primary
          > "business end."

          In fact, the 'ishi-dzuki' as it is called, is often used in naginata kata
          to strike or jab.

          > Japanese polearm work (with the exception of the Ono type weapons) tend
          > to rely on the ability for the user to change position along the shaft
          > quickly. One can either choke up on it or go to the end to get maximum
          > reach or leverage, a dual ended sword does not fit this style.

          I would argue that you would have had techniques change to match the
          weapon, so I would disagree that the style of use of weapons in general
          would prohibit the creation of such a weapon. A better question is: Why?
          What do you believe you gain from a blade on the other end? You don't
          need a blade to strike your opponent, and I would think another blade
          would be more dangerous to the user (after all, if one is pointed at your
          opponent, make sure the other isn't pointed at you!).

          > Some people may want to point out Jo-do and the staff/stick arts of
          > Japan for emphasizing why these weapons would be practical... They
          > would not, simply because those arts as well rely on being able to use
          > the full length of a staff both as a striking surface, and as a gripping
          > surface. With these things in mind it is doubtful that the Japanese even
          > produced a single prototype for you to track down.

          Actually, even more so. Shindo Muso Ryu Jodo teaches a lot of techniques
          (almost all, that I can think of) where one or both hands cover the ends
          of the jo.

          Also, Jodo, by all accounts I've read, was developed either extremely late
          or post-period, as it is said to have been developed in response to
          Miyamoto Musashi.

          -Ii
        • Otagiri Tatsuzou
          ... Does Star Wars count as documentation? I m pretty sure that Darth Maul used a similar weapon.*
          Message 4 of 22 , Jan 29, 2005
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            > is there any documentation on a Japanese style weapon like a two
            > bladed sword?... I.e. Blades on either end of a staff?

            Does Star Wars count as documentation? I'm pretty sure that Darth Maul
            used a similar weapon.*
            http://sfstory.free.fr/images/StarWarsWallpapers/starwars1_16_1024x768.jpg

            Otagiri

            *This is a joke and only a joke. Had this been actual documentation, I
            would cite to the best of my ability the title, author, and date of
            the document. ;)
          • sigrune@aol.com
            Otagiri-dono, I ll give ya the a long, long time ago... but I doubt you could convince me that a galaxy far, far away... can qualify as having period
            Message 5 of 22 , Jan 29, 2005
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              Otagiri-dono,

              I'll give ya the "a long, long time ago..." but I doubt you could convince me that "a galaxy far, far away..." can qualify as having period contact with Europe.

              In mirth,
              -Takeda Sanjuichiro

              >*This is a joke and only a joke. Had this been actual documentation, I would cite to the best of my ability the title, author, and date of the document. ;)
            • Ii Saburou
              ... Well, first ignore that Star Wars is about A Long Time Ago... (If they had spaceships, they could have made it to Mediaeval Europe!). Star Wars is the
              Message 6 of 22 , Jan 29, 2005
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                On Sun, 30 Jan 2005, Otagiri Tatsuzou wrote:

                > Does Star Wars count as documentation? I'm pretty sure that Darth Maul
                > used a similar weapon.*
                > http://sfstory.free.fr/images/StarWarsWallpapers/starwars1_16_1024x768.jpg

                Well, first ignore that Star Wars is about "A Long Time Ago..." (If they
                had spaceships, they could have made it to Mediaeval Europe!). Star Wars
                is the story of Darth Vader. Darth Vader's costume (and much of the
                earlier Star Wars movies) were based on movies like "Throne of Blood".
                "Throne of Blood" was done in the style of "Jidai-geki", or period
                Japanese films. "Jidai-geki" films cover from the beginning of Japan
                until well-past the 1600 cutoff date, therefore it covers period.
                Therefore... *


                -Ii

                *Note: this is joke documentation done in response to previous joke
                documentation. Any who use this as actual documentation shall be found
                and given long and boring lectures on the appropriateness of using Star
                Wars to document anything--then you shall be sued for plagiarism since
                yous shouldn't be copying someone else's documentation as your own, even
                if it is done as a joke. ;)
              • Bubba
                ... Yup. It was a long time ago... ;) Doh, someone already beat me to it. Sorry, I was playing SWG all day and didn t check email :) -- Kagemasa
                Message 7 of 22 , Jan 29, 2005
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                  Otagiri Tatsuzou wrote:
                  >
                  > Does Star Wars count as documentation?

                  Yup. It was a long time ago... ;)

                  Doh, someone already beat me to it. Sorry, I was playing SWG all day and
                  didn't check email :)
                  --
                  Kagemasa
                  mysticz28@...
                  He who seeks will find, and he who knocks will be let in.
                • Bubba
                  ... The Hidden Fortress Lucas is on the DVD telling about stealing the story for the first SW movie. -- Kagemasa mysticz28@swbell.net He who seeks will find,
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jan 29, 2005
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                    Ii Saburou wrote:
                    >
                    > Darth Vader's costume (and much of the earlier Star Wars movies) were
                    > based on movies like
                    > "Throne of Blood". "Throne of Blood" was done in the style of
                    > "Jidai-geki", or period Japanese films. "Jidai-geki" films cover
                    > from the beginning of Japan until well-past the 1600 cutoff date,
                    > therefore it covers period. Therefore... *

                    "The Hidden Fortress"

                    Lucas is on the DVD telling about stealing the story for the first SW movie.
                    --
                    Kagemasa
                    mysticz28@...
                    He who seeks will find, and he who knocks will be let in.
                  • Ii Saburou
                    ... Also, we need to remember that Star Wars was not only Long, long ago , but in a galaxy far, far away. However, we know they have FTL capabilities, as
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jan 29, 2005
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                      On Sat, 29 Jan 2005, Bubba wrote:

                      >> Does Star Wars count as documentation?
                      >
                      > Yup. It was a long time ago... ;)
                      >
                      > Doh, someone already beat me to it. Sorry, I was playing SWG all day and
                      > didn't check email :)

                      Also, we need to remember that Star Wars was not only "Long, long ago",
                      but in a "galaxy far, far away." However, we know they have FTL
                      capabilities, as well as the use of a mystical 'force'. Furthermore, we
                      know from 'many' 'renowned' 'scientists' that the great early
                      civilizations were all started by aliens (for further evidence see
                      Stargate:SG-1). Therefore Star Wars is Period!

                      (Okay, so how much trouble do you think someone would get in if they tried
                      to show up as a Goa'uld infested wookie?)

                      -Ii
                    • Ii Saburou
                      ... Thanks. Nonetheless, the logic still stands. You could even take it another direction: Hidden Fortress was directed by Akira Kurosawa, who was greatly
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jan 29, 2005
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                        On Sat, 29 Jan 2005, Bubba wrote:

                        > "The Hidden Fortress"
                        >
                        > Lucas is on the DVD telling about stealing the story for the first SW movie.

                        Thanks. Nonetheless, the logic still stands. You could even take it
                        another direction: "Hidden Fortress" was directed by Akira Kurosawa, who
                        was greatly influenced by Shakespeare, who was a period English
                        playwright.

                        -Ii, spending way too much time on this subject.
                      • Bubba
                        ... They just didn t show us the stargate on Tatooine, that s it! LUKE IS A GOA ULD!!! ... Lots. I don t like either Goa uld or Wookiees ;) -- Steve
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jan 29, 2005
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                          Ii Saburou wrote:
                          >
                          > Also, we need to remember that Star Wars was not only "Long, long
                          > ago", but in a "galaxy far, far away." However, we know they have FTL
                          > capabilities, as well as the use of a mystical 'force'. Furthermore,
                          > we know from 'many' 'renowned' 'scientists' that the great early
                          > civilizations were all started by aliens (for further evidence see
                          > Stargate:SG-1). Therefore Star Wars is Period!

                          They just didn't show us the stargate on Tatooine, that's it! LUKE IS A
                          GOA'ULD!!!

                          > (Okay, so how much trouble do you think someone would get in if they
                          > tried to show up as a Goa'uld infested wookie?)

                          Lots. I don't like either Goa'uld or Wookiees ;)
                          --
                          Steve
                          mysticz28@...
                          He who seeks will find, and he who knocks will be let in.
                        • Ii Saburou
                          ... Ooh! Ooh! A Wookie Goa uld Ninja Pirate! -Ii
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jan 29, 2005
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                            On Sat, 29 Jan 2005, Bubba wrote:


                            >> (Okay, so how much trouble do you think someone would get in if they
                            >> tried to show up as a Goa'uld infested wookie?)
                            >
                            > Lots. I don't like either Goa'uld or Wookiees ;)

                            Ooh! Ooh! A Wookie Goa'uld Ninja Pirate!

                            -Ii
                          • Bubba
                            ... TIE Aggressor with 3 large, evil blasters. Wookiee Goa uld Ninja Pirate vapors :) -- Kagemasa mysticz28@swbell.net He who seeks will find, and he who
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jan 29, 2005
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                              Ii Saburou wrote:
                              >
                              > Ooh! Ooh! A Wookie Goa'uld Ninja Pirate!

                              TIE Aggressor with 3 large, evil blasters. Wookiee Goa'uld Ninja Pirate
                              vapors :)
                              --
                              Kagemasa
                              mysticz28@...
                              He who seeks will find, and he who knocks will be let in.
                            • sigrune@aol.com
                              Ii-dono, ... The Shogun, and decorum dictate you commit seppuku. My Sci-fi sensabilities are highly offended. -Takeda (though it did make me and ekat giggle)
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jan 29, 2005
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                                Ii-dono,

                                For your comment:
                                >Ooh! Ooh! A Wookie Goa'uld Ninja Pirate!

                                The Shogun, and decorum dictate you commit seppuku.
                                My Sci-fi sensabilities are highly offended.

                                -Takeda
                                (though it did make me and ekat giggle)
                              • BamboOni@aol.com
                                In a message dated 1/29/2005 5:42:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, camberme@yahoo.com writes: is there any documentation on a Japanese style weapon like a two
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jan 30, 2005
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                                  In a message dated 1/29/2005 5:42:44 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                                  camberme@... writes:
                                  is there any documentation on a Japanese style weapon like a two
                                  bladed sword?... I.e. Blades on either end of a staff?
                                  Interestingly enough this came up on the sword forum just the other day here
                                  is the link

                                  http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=b212a99a28a87158938d8ec1e0bdf696
                                  &threadid=46826



                                  Takebayashi Genpachi


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Otagiri Tatsuzou
                                  ... day here ... http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=b212a99a28a87158938d8ec1e0bdf696 ... That s one of the things I love about this game. Everytime
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jan 30, 2005
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                                    > is there any documentation on a Japanese style weapon like a two
                                    > bladed sword?... I.e. Blades on either end of a staff?
                                    > Interestingly enough this came up on the sword forum just the other
                                    day here
                                    > is the link
                                    >
                                    >
                                    http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=b212a99a28a87158938d8ec1e0bdf696
                                    > &threadid=46826

                                    That's one of the things I love about this game. Everytime you think
                                    you've got a clue - *WHAM* comes the clue stick!

                                    Thought I've seen it all...
                                    Otagiri
                                  • Otagiri Tatsuzou
                                    ... http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=b212a99a28a87158938d8ec1e0bdf696 ... Wait a minute ... I think that s a doctored photo of what it *might*
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jan 30, 2005
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                                      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Otagiri Tatsuzou" <ronbroberg@y...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > is there any documentation on a Japanese style weapon like a two
                                      > > bladed sword?... I.e. Blades on either end of a staff?
                                      > > Interestingly enough this came up on the sword forum just the other
                                      > day here
                                      > > is the link
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=b212a99a28a87158938d8ec1e0bdf696
                                      > > &threadid=46826
                                      >
                                      > That's one of the things I love about this game. Everytime you think
                                      > you've got a clue - *WHAM* comes the clue stick!
                                      >

                                      Wait a minute ... I think that's a doctored photo of what it *might*
                                      look like.

                                      Color Me Skeptical
                                      Otagiri
                                    • Ii Saburou
                                      ... That s what I was wondering. Even if it isn t doctored, it looks like a modern item. I was beginning to wonder about vajra (kongo), though.
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Jan 30, 2005
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                                        On Sun, 30 Jan 2005, Otagiri Tatsuzou wrote:

                                        > Wait a minute ... I think that's a doctored photo of what it *might*
                                        > look like.
                                        >
                                        > Color Me Skeptical
                                        > Otagiri

                                        That's what I was wondering. Even if it isn't doctored, it looks like a
                                        modern item.

                                        I was beginning to wonder about vajra (kongo), though.

                                        http://www.dzogchen.org/library/photos/pix960502/untitled74.jpg

                                        I believe I've seen simple double-bladed knives. However, it is a
                                        religious icon. I could see special orders being made, but I doubt it
                                        would be on any kind of large scale (like something you would hand out to
                                        the troops--or even a weapon-style that would be greatly taught).

                                        Here's one attached to a tanto (although it isn't really much of a weapon,
                                        but rather a decoration).

                                        http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/unji.htm

                                        -Ii
                                      • Otagiri Tatsuzou
                                        ... like a ... out to ... weapon, ... Ii-dono, You read the deleted portions of my post! But I could not recall the name and after rereading the the Sword
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Jan 30, 2005
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                                          > That's what I was wondering. Even if it isn't doctored, it looks
                                          like a
                                          > modern item.
                                          >
                                          > I was beginning to wonder about vajra (kongo), though.
                                          >
                                          > http://www.dzogchen.org/library/photos/pix960502/untitled74.jpg
                                          >
                                          > I believe I've seen simple double-bladed knives. However, it is a
                                          > religious icon. I could see special orders being made, but I doubt it
                                          > would be on any kind of large scale (like something you would hand
                                          out to
                                          > the troops--or even a weapon-style that would be greatly taught).
                                          >
                                          > Here's one attached to a tanto (although it isn't really much of a
                                          weapon,
                                          > but rather a decoration).
                                          >
                                          > http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/unji.htm

                                          Ii-dono,

                                          You read the deleted portions of my post! But I could not recall the
                                          name and after rereading the the Sword forum list, I did not think
                                          that that is what they were looking at, but who can say?

                                          Otagiri
                                        • Ii Saburou
                                          ... Sorry, I m not sure if you mean the stuff I posted (which was more to the question of double bladed Japanese weapons), or if you mean the picture in the
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Jan 30, 2005
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                                            On Sun, 30 Jan 2005, Otagiri Tatsuzou wrote:

                                            > Ii-dono,
                                            >
                                            > You read the deleted portions of my post! But I could not recall the
                                            > name and after rereading the the Sword forum list, I did not think
                                            > that that is what they were looking at, but who can say?
                                            >
                                            Sorry, I'm not sure if you mean the stuff I posted (which was more to the
                                            question of double bladed Japanese weapons), or if you mean the picture in
                                            the thread. The picture is the part that I wonder about, but I don't
                                            believe that is what they were discussing (rather, it was someone's
                                            attempt to show what he thought was being discussed--if that makes any
                                            sense).

                                            -Ii
                                          • Scott
                                            The weapon pictured there looks completely useless. For one thing, without tsuba if you tried to thrust with it your hand would slide onto your own blade, and
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Jan 30, 2005
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                                              The weapon pictured there looks completely useless. For one thing,
                                              without tsuba if you tried to thrust with it your hand would slide
                                              onto your own blade, and I can't think of many other cuts you could
                                              make without simultaneously gutting yourself.

                                              Giving it the benefit of a doubt, maybe meant to be used one side at
                                              a time with the other blade sheathed, like a nagamaki with 2 blade
                                              lengths to choose between?
                                            • Donald Luby
                                              ... At the Star Wars exhibit at the National Air and Space museum a few years ago, there were the original sketches for the costumes, and the original Jedi
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Feb 1, 2005
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                                                On Jan 29, 2005, at 7:40 PM, Ii Saburou wrote:

                                                >
                                                > On Sun, 30 Jan 2005, Otagiri Tatsuzou wrote:
                                                >
                                                >> Does Star Wars count as documentation? I'm pretty sure that Darth Maul
                                                >> used a similar weapon.*
                                                >> http://sfstory.free.fr/images/StarWarsWallpapers/
                                                >> starwars1_16_1024x768.jpg
                                                >
                                                > Well, first ignore that Star Wars is about "A Long Time Ago..." (If
                                                > they
                                                > had spaceships, they could have made it to Mediaeval Europe!). Star
                                                > Wars
                                                > is the story of Darth Vader. Darth Vader's costume (and much of the
                                                > earlier Star Wars movies) were based on movies like "Throne of Blood".
                                                > "Throne of Blood" was done in the style of "Jidai-geki", or period
                                                > Japanese films.

                                                At the Star Wars exhibit at the National Air and Space museum a few
                                                years ago, there were the original sketches for the costumes, and the
                                                original Jedi outfits (only Obi-Wan in 'Star Wars', of course) were
                                                obviously kamishimo, to anyone who knew Japanese costuming.

                                                As an added datum for how much Kurosawa influenced Lucas, Alec Guiness
                                                was not first choice for Obi-Wan; it was Toshiro Mifune ...

                                                > "Jidai-geki" films cover from the beginning of Japan
                                                > until well-past the 1600 cutoff date, therefore it covers period.
                                                > Therefore... *
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > -Ii
                                                >
                                                > *Note: this is joke documentation done in response to previous joke
                                                > documentation. Any who use this as actual documentation shall be found
                                                > and given long and boring lectures on the appropriateness of using Star
                                                > Wars to document anything--then you shall be sued for plagiarism since
                                                > yous shouldn't be copying someone else's documentation as your own,
                                                > even
                                                > if it is done as a joke. ;)


                                                Koredono
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