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Re: [SCA-JML] A thought experiment...

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  • Solveig
    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... They were at various times bitten by the colonization bug. As I recall, in the early 17th century a good portion of
    Message 1 of 27 , Jan 2, 2005
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      Noble Cousin!

      Greetings from Solveig!

      >I had an interesting thought the other day. Why were the Japanese not
      >bitten by the colonization bug the way the Europeans were?

      They were at various times bitten by the colonization bug. As I recall,
      in the early 17th century a good portion of Indochina was taken over by
      a Japanese adventurer, and the Japanese periodically tried to duke it
      out with China in Korea. The problem was that with China, Korea, and
      India parked relatively close at hand, the Japanese were not nearly as
      interested in taking over Indonesia, the Philipines, or East Africa.
      --

      Your Humble Servant
      Solveig Throndardottir
      Amateur Scholar

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    • Solveig
      Kiri Hime! Greetings from Solveig! ... The Japanese built several large seagoing ships in the early seventeenth century. At least one of them sailed to Neuo
      Message 2 of 27 , Jan 2, 2005
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        Kiri Hime!

        Greetings from Solveig!

        >But what confused me is that I've also read accounts, can't remember
        >where, about shards of Japanese pottery being found in the Americas.
        >If they weren't
        >great sea farers, how did they get to the Americas? By accident?

        The Japanese built several large seagoing ships in the early seventeenth
        century. At least one of them sailed to Neuo Espania (Mexico).

        As for the Japan Current. Anyone growing up in the Pacific Northwest can
        tell you about Japanese glass fish floats washing ashore. The Japan Current
        runs into North America somewhere proximate to Grey's Harbour County,
        Washington.
        --

        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar

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      • Solveig
        Ii Dono! Greetings from Solveig! I should also point out that the Haida of Vancouver, Island had large sea going canoes and practed celestial navigation.
        Message 3 of 27 , Jan 2, 2005
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          Ii Dono!

          Greetings from Solveig! I should also point out that the Haida of Vancouver,
          Island had large sea going canoes and practed celestial navigation. According
          to Thor Hyrdahl, the Haida went all sorts of places including Easter Island
          or some such place. The place with the huge stone statues as I recall.
          --

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar

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        • Park McKellop
          In one of my books, I have a piece of Japanese artwork that shows a demon that taught about certain herbal remedies. It looks like a human from the New
          Message 4 of 27 , Jan 2, 2005
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            In one of my books, I have a piece of Japanese artwork that shows a 'demon' that taught about certain herbal remedies. It looks like a human from the New Guinea area, or possibly an African pygmy, due to the teeth being filed to points. Definitely 'black', and I think it was more evident an encounter with the NG area than Africa. When I get home, I'll try to pull it out. I rate it as only 'possible' not probable.

            Why didn't they do the sea exploration thing? Too much empty water to the East? China had most of the coastal trade locked in? Japan was an introspective rather than explorative culture? No idea...

            Alcyoneus



            Booknerd9@... wrote:


            > The Japanese tried the empire thing in the 1590s. They started with
            > Korea. The plan was to go on into northern China.

            Didn't the Japanese give this path of imperialism another try in the
            early 20th century, sending the military into parts of China
            (Manchuria? Or am I off) and Korea? Ok, ok, not Period.
            Actually, I think there's a lot of information about the large sea-
            faring enterprises of China (can't recall the exact time period). I
            know there's a book called "1421: The Year the Chinese Discovered
            America" but the author's theory is very very weak.

            Sorry I'm rambling a bit; I guess that's the nature of the thought
            experiment.





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          • Park McKellop
            I think there were shards of pottery found on the western side of SA, that were similar, made with twisted rope designs rolled on the sides. Pretty simple
            Message 5 of 27 , Jan 2, 2005
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              I think there were shards of pottery found on the western side of SA, that were similar, made with twisted rope designs rolled on the sides. Pretty simple stuff, I don't know that it was so unique that it could only have come from Japan. Pottery isn't my thing, so I haven't studied any (or remembered) of the competing arguments.

              Alcyoneus

              Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1@...> wrote:
              Booknerd9@... wrote:

              >
              >
              > > The Japanese tried the empire thing in the 1590s. They started with
              > > Korea. The plan was to go on into northern China.
              >
              > Didn't the Japanese give this path of imperialism another try in the
              > early 20th century, sending the military into parts of China
              > (Manchuria? Or am I off) and Korea? Ok, ok, not Period.
              > Actually, I think there's a lot of information about the large sea-
              > faring enterprises of China (can't recall the exact time period). I
              > know there's a book called "1421: The Year the Chinese Discovered
              > America" but the author's theory is very very weak.
              >
              > Sorry I'm rambling a bit; I guess that's the nature of the thought
              > experiment.
              >
              >
              >
              No, I think that's the way this thing is supposed to work. I remember
              being somewhat confused by reading in one place that the Japanese
              typically didn't go much beyond the seas immediately surrounding their
              islands as this was not their strong point. I know they did invade
              Korea on several occasions...in fact, they brought Korean potters back
              to Japan on at least two of those ventures. And, of course, there is
              that empire-building venture in the mid-Twentieth century. But what
              confused me is that I've also read accounts, can't remember where, about
              shards of Japanese pottery being found in the Americas. If they weren't
              great sea farers, how did they get to the Americas? By accident?

              Kiri



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            • mattfmcti
              ... I m getting an image of a man beating his head against a brick wall...how many ultimately futile expeditions did the Japanese send to Korea through the
              Message 6 of 27 , Jan 3, 2005
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                > They were at various times bitten by the colonization bug. As I recall,
                > in the early 17th century a good portion of Indochina was taken over by
                > a Japanese adventurer, and the Japanese periodically tried to duke it
                > out with China in Korea. The problem was that with China, Korea, and
                > India parked relatively close at hand, the Japanese were not nearly as
                > interested in taking over Indonesia, the Philipines, or East Africa.

                I'm getting an image of a man beating his head against a brick
                wall...how many ultimately futile expeditions did the Japanese send to
                Korea through the ages? One would guess that, with easier pickings
                elsewhere, they might have learned to just forget Korea. *The Big
                Question* What is the morbid Japanese facination with Korea anyway?
                Was it seen as a beach head into China (T'ien Xia...I love Hero, esp.
                in Mandarin)? I just finished reading "The Seven Military Classics of
                Ancient China" (trans. by Sawyer), and the size of the armies even the
                Warring States era kingdoms were able to field was staggering. Was
                Japan ever able to field an army of the size needed to conquer China?
                It boggles the mind how many troops one would need. It just doesn't
                make sense, strategically, to even attempt it. One would think that
                the Japanese generals, having studied the various Chinese military
                works, would have seen this.

                On a side note, I've been studying the various Chinese dynasties. Did
                the Japanese transition from the Nara-jidai to the Heian-jidai have
                anything to do with the decline of the T'ang, since both happened in
                relatively the same time frame, or was the break in diplomatic
                relations and cultural ties due to other forces?

                Fujiwara Takaharu
              • John Mooers
                Fujiwara-tono, Hideyoshi was unrealistic in his estimations when using Korea as the on-ramp to China. Some say he was insane when ordering the second (or even
                Message 7 of 27 , Jan 3, 2005
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                  Fujiwara-tono,
                  Hideyoshi was unrealistic in his estimations when using Korea as the on-ramp to China. Some say he was insane when ordering the second (or even first) invasion. The second invasion was more to consolidate Japanese hold on southern Korea than a true invasion of China. If he had truly read and digested the classics he may not have gone into China. Generals vied with each other for glory as much as your average Samurai competed to be the first spear or first over the wall. Date Masamune was the only Daiymo to actually make it into China but didn't stay long. Taking more rice land was always good.
                  Japan, Korea, and China subjected each other to exchanges of culture, religion, and piracy. Most nations that focus on colonization already have a well consolidated homeland and national government. This did not occur in Japan until the Tokuwaga Bakufu and their initial forays into trade expeditions died when they closed the country to outsiders.
                  Focus on the "unique and divine" nature of the home islands perhaps made conquest of other lands less attractive. Travel by the relatively primitive native vessels from Japan to the east Indies was dangerous and communication problems made military activities less attractive. Conquest of Korea and Manchuria is far more attractive from an operational and economic perspective. Manchuria and Korea abound in raw materials the way Japan abounds in scenic mountains. A nation with burgeoning population and lack of available land looks to add land, not just resources, and Indonesia has resources but not nearly the land area of Asia.
                  Then there is the psychological aspect. China as the font of culture and "big brother" in Asia was seen as conquerable. Consider you are a fanatically ambitious Daimyo who cannot be Emperor of Japan since you (a) are born in the wrong family and (b) have no daughter married to the ruling Emperor. You also cannot be Shogun since you are not from the right family...and you REALLY want to be Emperor. You remember that the Mongols conquered China but not Japan. You believe that the Gods raised the kamikaze to defeat the Mongols with their Chinese and Korean lackeys. After being the only guy to unite, decisively, a archipelago of factious warlords you might think anything is possible.
                  Remember, Alexander just kept conquering until his army mutinied.

                  Date Genshiro Toshinobu
                  Yama Kaminari Ryu

                  mattfmcti <mattfmcti@...> wrote:


                  > They were at various times bitten by the colonization bug. As I recall,
                  > in the early 17th century a good portion of Indochina was taken over by
                  > a Japanese adventurer, and the Japanese periodically tried to duke it
                  > out with China in Korea. The problem was that with China, Korea, and
                  > India parked relatively close at hand, the Japanese were not nearly as
                  > interested in taking over Indonesia, the Philipines, or East Africa.

                  I'm getting an image of a man beating his head against a brick
                  wall...how many ultimately futile expeditions did the Japanese send to
                  Korea through the ages? One would guess that, with easier pickings
                  elsewhere, they might have learned to just forget Korea. *The Big
                  Question* What is the morbid Japanese facination with Korea anyway?
                  Was it seen as a beach head into China (T'ien Xia...I love Hero, esp.
                  in Mandarin)? I just finished reading "The Seven Military Classics of
                  Ancient China" (trans. by Sawyer), and the size of the armies even the
                  Warring States era kingdoms were able to field was staggering. Was
                  Japan ever able to field an army of the size needed to conquer China?
                  It boggles the mind how many troops one would need. It just doesn't
                  make sense, strategically, to even attempt it. One would think that
                  the Japanese generals, having studied the various Chinese military
                  works, would have seen this.

                  On a side note, I've been studying the various Chinese dynasties. Did
                  the Japanese transition from the Nara-jidai to the Heian-jidai have
                  anything to do with the decline of the T'ang, since both happened in
                  relatively the same time frame, or was the break in diplomatic
                  relations and cultural ties due to other forces?

                  Fujiwara Takaharu





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                • Ii Saburou
                  ... Sounds like you are talking about this: http://www.users.on.net/~mkfenn/page2.htm I find some of it interesting because the origin myths given are
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jan 3, 2005
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                    On Sun, 2 Jan 2005, Solveig wrote:

                    > Ii Dono!
                    >
                    > Greetings from Solveig! I should also point out that the Haida of Vancouver,
                    > Island had large sea going canoes and practed celestial navigation. According
                    > to Thor Hyrdahl, the Haida went all sorts of places including Easter Island
                    > or some such place. The place with the huge stone statues as I recall.

                    Sounds like you are talking about this:
                    http://www.users.on.net/~mkfenn/page2.htm

                    I find some of it interesting because the origin myths given are different
                    than the ones I learned, which were Tlinget. Also, I saw a lot of stuff
                    that is questionable or, I believe, outright wrong (e.g. the 'sunken
                    structures' near Japan are more reasonably natural formations--there was a
                    great show on this just a few weeks back on Discovery, I believe).

                    -Ii
                  • Solveig
                    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! The Japanese were doing a very good job of nibbling away at China until the U.S. intervened in the late 1930 s early
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jan 3, 2005
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                      Noble Cousin!

                      Greetings from Solveig! The Japanese were doing a very good job of nibbling
                      away at China until the U.S. intervened in the late 1930's early 1940's.
                      Even in August of 1945, the Japanese had an operational army in China with
                      more a million troops. If memory serves correctly of course.
                      --

                      Your Humble Servant
                      Solveig Throndardottir
                      Amateur Scholar

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                    • Solveig
                      Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! ... Invading Korea and China was quite rational and a far better alternative than trying to follow the example of the
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jan 3, 2005
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                        Noble Cousins!

                        Greetings from Solveig!

                        > Hideyoshi was unrealistic in his estimations when using Korea
                        >as the on-ramp to China. Some say he was insane when ordering the
                        >second (or even first) invasion. The second invasion was more to
                        >consolidate Japanese hold on southern Korea than a true invasion of
                        >China. If he had truly read and digested the classics he may not
                        >have gone into China. Generals vied with each other for glory as
                        >much as your average Samurai competed to be the first spear or first
                        >over the wall. Date Masamune was the only Daiymo to actually make
                        >it into China but didn't stay long. Taking more rice land was
                        >always good.

                        Invading Korea and China was quite rational and a far better alternative
                        than trying to follow the example of the Minamoto following the Genpei War.
                        Basically, the Japanese had raised huge armies which expected loot. Not
                        to mention the large number off defeated soldiers who needed someplace to
                        go.

                        > Focus on the "unique and divine" nature of the home islands
                        >perhaps made conquest of other lands less attractive. Travel by the
                        >relatively primitive native vessels from Japan to the east Indies
                        >was dangerous and communication problems made military activities
                        >less attractive. Conquest of Korea and Manchuria is far more
                        >attractive from an operational and economic perspective. Manchuria
                        >and Korea abound in raw materials the way Japan abounds in scenic
                        >mountains. A nation with burgeoning population and lack of
                        >available land looks to add land, not just resources, and Indonesia
                        >has resources but not nearly the land area of Asia.

                        Remember the Iberians were there! The Japanese constructed fairly modern
                        (for the time) vessels toward the end of the sixteenth and the begining
                        of the seventeenth centuries. As for the comparative attractiveness of
                        China, that point is well taken, and I tried to raise it myself in an
                        earlier posting.
                        --

                        Your Humble Servant
                        Solveig Throndardottir
                        Amateur Scholar

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                      • Ii Saburou
                        ... If you look, there aren t easier pickings. For most of Japan s history, they have to island hop to get to the mainland--it is just far enough that if you
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jan 3, 2005
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                          On Mon, 3 Jan 2005, mattfmcti wrote:

                          > I'm getting an image of a man beating his head against a brick
                          > wall...how many ultimately futile expeditions did the Japanese send to
                          > Korea through the ages? One would guess that, with easier pickings
                          > elsewhere, they might have learned to just forget Korea. *The Big
                          > Question* What is the morbid Japanese facination with Korea anyway?

                          If you look, there aren't easier pickings. For most of Japan's history,
                          they have to island hop to get to the mainland--it is just far enough that
                          if you start sailing without some kind of guide, you can end up way off
                          course. This is one of the reasons the Mongol invasion took the same
                          route in to Japan both times.

                          If Japan wanted resources outside of their own country, Korea was their
                          ticket. They could try to go north and finally take Hokkaido and up that
                          direction, but why? What is there for them? It is cold, and the people
                          are primitive so you aren't bringing back great plunder.

                          Korea on the other hand, has historical value as well. Japan's early
                          legends/history tell of their conquering Korea--Empress Jingo Kogo in 366,
                          according to tradition. Japan later started losing its foothold in Korea.
                          Once back on the home islands, Japan had enough trouble with the local
                          Emishi that they don't seem to have been much inclined to try to expand.

                          As Emishi are being put down in the provinces, the life of the court grows
                          more insular. They are more concerned with what is going on in the
                          capital than outside. They lose effective control of the provinces, and
                          the warrior caste comes to power. Despite 'unification', there is still
                          enough to keep the Japanese busy, especially when the Mongols decide to
                          come to them. Finally, after an imperial dynastic struggle and Japan's
                          own warring states period you finally have a warlord who has sufficiently
                          pacified the nation to continue his ambitions further. Since the only
                          really accessible piece of land is Korea, there he goes.

                          One--if not *the*--problem Toyotomi had was he wouldn't remain satisfied
                          with Korea. He got it into his head he could take on the whole of China.
                          The Chinese were rather content to let him come through Korea--they didn't
                          really care so much about it--but when they saw he wanted to come further
                          they decided it would be better to fight that war on someone else's
                          territory, and so march the Japanese off the Penninsula.

                          Japan decides to become insular again, and without outside pressure, they
                          content themselves with their islands.

                          Then Perry comes in his Black Ships and forcibly requires Japan to open
                          its doors. Up and coming Japanese come to the realization that the world
                          will come to them unless they learn to keep the world out, and they build
                          up a Navy and Army that are able to dominate their section of the world,
                          defeating both the Chinese and the Russians.

                          Japan then goes for Korea again because of the resources required to keep
                          up with the industrialization. Also, no doubt, they are taking lessons
                          from the British as to how the Brits became a great world-spanning Empire
                          from just a small island nation.

                          Japan actually keeps Korea this time until the end of WWWII.

                          So, all in all, Korea wasn't a bad move for Japan at any point in its
                          history, as I can see it.

                          -Ii
                        • James Eckman
                          ... It s cool, it s interesting. ... Is the sea blue? That s what we in the west say even though it s more likely to be a yucky kind of turquoise most of the
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jan 3, 2005
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                            sca-jml@yahoogroups.com wrote:

                            >From: "Ellen Davis" <ellen.m.davis@...>
                            >
                            >
                            >The pottery in question is called Valdivia ware and does bear a marked
                            >similarity to certain Jomon styles from both Honshu and Kyushu.
                            >
                            >(Not to toot my own sho, but I wrote a paper on this whole shebang as part
                            >of an American Prehistory class, and I'm posting it to the Files section
                            >under "Valdivia.doc". It's a bit technical in places but I thought it might
                            >be helpful and/or interesting.)
                            >
                            >
                            It's cool, it's interesting.

                            >From: Solveig <nostrand@...>
                            >
                            >
                            >No there are not. This is patently false. The canonical and well worn
                            >example is aoi.
                            >
                            >
                            Is the sea blue? That's what we in the west say even though it's more
                            likely to be a yucky kind of turquoise most of the time. Color words are
                            not very precise in English, or even between people with the same
                            background and language.

                            >I am not a subscriber to nihonron either, but the notion that Japanese and
                            >English are equivalent is laughable.
                            >
                            Certainly much closer than Navajo or some of the really far out tribal
                            languages. I guess all those translator's out there are just ripping us
                            off ;)

                            >There are things which are easier and
                            >more natural to express in each of these languages. Even if something can
                            >be easily expressed in both languages does not mean that you will see a
                            >1:1 word mapping.
                            >
                            >
                            For more complex concepts that's true. Actually for pre-1900's Japan I
                            would say love is tough word to translate in either direction.

                            > From: "mattfmcti" <mattfmcti@...>
                            >
                            >
                            >I'm getting an image of a man beating his head against a brick
                            >wall...how many ultimately futile expeditions did the Japanese send to
                            >Korea through the ages? One would guess that, with easier pickings
                            >elsewhere, they might have learned to just forget Korea.
                            >
                            Why are the Turks and Greeks still fighting, why did the French and
                            English always fight each other? It's all part of being neighborly ;)

                            Jim Eckman
                          • Solveig
                            Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solvieg! Love is indeed another interesting word. Ancient Greek had four words for love . Modern Japanese has more than one.
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jan 4, 2005
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                              Noble Cousins!

                              Greetings from Solvieg! "Love" is indeed another interesting word. Ancient
                              Greek had four words for "love". Modern Japanese has more than one. Arguably
                              English has at least two common words: "love" and "lust".
                              --

                              Your Humble Servant
                              Solveig Throndardottir
                              Amateur Scholar

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                            • mattfmcti
                              ... nibbling ... China with ... IIRC, Japan was also technologically superior to China, having spent the last 40-50 years modernizing the country at warp
                              Message 14 of 27 , Jan 4, 2005
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                                > Noble Cousin!
                                >
                                > Greetings from Solveig! The Japanese were doing a very good job of
                                nibbling
                                > away at China until the U.S. intervened in the late 1930's early 1940's.
                                > Even in August of 1945, the Japanese had an operational army in
                                China with
                                > more a million troops. If memory serves correctly of course.

                                IIRC, Japan was also technologically superior to China, having spent
                                the last 40-50 years modernizing the country at warp speed. I believe
                                the Chinese resistance during WWII was using U.S.-supplied arms and
                                supplies, because they either didn't have the facilities to make there
                                own or the Japanese had bombed/taken them.

                                Besides, don't you know....you NEVER get involved in a land war with
                                Asia. ^_^

                                Fujiwara
                              • David Williams
                                ... And never challenge a Sicillian when death is on the line!!!! Cristen __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you
                                Message 15 of 27 , Jan 4, 2005
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                                  >
                                  > Besides, don't you know....you NEVER get involved in
                                  > a land war with
                                  > Asia. ^_^
                                  >
                                  > Fujiwara
                                  >
                                  >
                                  And never challenge a Sicillian when death is on the
                                  line!!!!

                                  Cristen



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                                • Solveig
                                  Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... As the author of Empire of the Sun put it, the Japanese make machines and the Chinese break machines . -- Your
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Jan 4, 2005
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                                    Noble Cousin!

                                    Greetings from Solveig!

                                    >IIRC, Japan was also technologically superior to China,

                                    As the author of "Empire of the Sun" put it, "the Japanese make machines
                                    and the Chinese break machines".
                                    --

                                    Your Humble Servant
                                    Solveig Throndardottir
                                    Amateur Scholar

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                                  • Park McKellop
                                    Never bet with a Sicilian. It is inconceivable. Alcyoneus ... And never challenge a Sicillian when death is on the line!!!! Cristen
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Jan 4, 2005
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                                      Never bet with a Sicilian.

                                      It is inconceivable.

                                      Alcyoneus

                                      David Williams <gary7williams@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Besides, don't you know....you NEVER get involved in
                                      > a land war with
                                      > Asia. ^_^
                                      >
                                      > Fujiwara
                                      >
                                      >
                                      And never challenge a Sicillian when death is on the
                                      line!!!!

                                      Cristen



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                                    • Park McKellop
                                      It is still today. I wouldn t hesitate to buy a Japanese tool or machine. I would buy a Chinese tool or machine only if I could afford to think of it as a
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Jan 5, 2005
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                                        It is still today. I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Japanese tool or machine. I would buy a Chinese tool or machine only if I could afford to think of it as a disposable tool, or could afford nothing better.

                                        Alcyoneus


                                        >IIRC, Japan was also technologically superior to China,

                                        As the author of "Empire of the Sun" put it, "the Japanese make machines
                                        and the Chinese break machines".
                                        --

                                        Your Humble Servant
                                        Solveig Throndardottir
                                        Amateur Scholar

                                        +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                        | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                        | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                                        +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                        | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to the |
                                        | trash by my email filters. |
                                        +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+


                                        UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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