Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Heisig's Method for Learning Kanji

Expand Messages
  • James Eckman
    ... I think one advantage of a course that concentrates on shapes, especially as short term as Heisig s is supposed to be is that it helps you recognize what
    Message 1 of 26 , Jan 2, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      >From: Anthony Bryant <ajbryant@...>
      >
      >
      >That's one reason I object so strongly to many of the "learn kanji" books. They
      >all seem to focus on individual kanji, and this mysterious thing called
      >"readings." I really abhor the concept of this Heisig Method. It's totally the
      >wrong idea.
      >
      >
      I think one advantage of a course that concentrates on shapes,
      especially as short term as Heisig's is supposed to be is that it helps
      you recognize what the hell a kanji is. It's really nice to be able to
      look at a bunch of marks and break them up into the right units.
      Especially when written horizontally, this can be a real problem for
      beginners. Also having a rough idea of the meaning when it's used by
      itself is not bad either.

      >If people would only learn them in CONTEXT, as WORDS, that wouldn't pose the
      >problem. Too many textbooks treat kanji as strange animals to be avoided until
      >the second year.
      >
      Hell, some of the older textbooks treat KANA as strange animals which
      really sucks. Most textbooks I've run across don't have enough reading
      material unless you go out and buy kiddy books which until recently was
      only an option in a few US cities. One very positive effect of the
      internet is it's easier to get Japanese books and the number of sites
      keeps increasing. It's very easy to check meanings and pronounciations
      online, especially good if there are specialist words that are not used
      in normal conversation.

      >If I had my way, we'd be doing kanji from the second week,
      >after everyone has learned their kana. When you learn a new word, you should
      >learn its kanji as PART of that learning of the word. That's how Chinese works.
      >
      >
      Possibly why Madarin conversation classes are so popular as opposed to
      the other.

      Of course none of this helps Otagiri-dono who wants to spend some
      serious time self-studying Japanese. Which books would you recommend as
      an alternative? I really haven't run across any really good ones myself.
      I've just been very lucky to have had good teachers who supplement
      mediocre textbooks with lots of extra material. For those in the SF Bay
      area I highly recommend Soko Gakuen, they have a wide selection of
      beginner and intermediate classes and they are cheap.

      Jim Eckman
    • Anthony Bryant
      ... Excellent. I really wonder about the folks whose texts are in romaji through the first semester. That s severely crippling. Effingham -- Anthony J. Bryant
      Message 2 of 26 , Jan 2, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        Solveig wrote:

        > At Harvard, you start learning kanji from about the first month. What they
        > do at Harvard is not quite as radical as you propose, but you do learn a
        > pile of kanji during the first semester even in the night school program.

        Excellent. I really wonder about the folks whose texts are in romaji through the
        first semester. That's severely crippling.

        Effingham
        --

        Anthony J. Bryant
        Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

        Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
        http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

        Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
        http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder
      • Solveig
        Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! I hope to come out with a leaflet entitled Bunka sometime around SEP 1 of this year. Which name should I put on it?
        Message 3 of 26 , Jan 2, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          Noble Cousins!

          Greetings from Solveig! I hope to come out with a leaflet entitled
          "Bunka" sometime around SEP 1 of this year. Which name should I put
          on it? Why or why not?
          --

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar

          +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
          | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
          | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
          +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
          | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to the |
          | trash by my email filters. |
          +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
        • Otagiri Tatsuzou
          ... Ah ... there is no help for me. My swords are set in the obi as are the extra sandles. Foolish or not, I have already begun this journey. But if the
          Message 4 of 26 , Jan 2, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            > Of course none of this helps Otagiri-dono who wants to spend some
            > serious time self-studying Japanese. Which books would you recommend as
            > an alternative?

            Ah ... there is no help for me. My swords are set in the obi as are
            the extra sandles. Foolish or not, I have already begun this journey.
            But if the learned on the list can provide references to alternate
            approaches/books that can be used by rogue students, I am sure that
            others might benefit (as will I if this path ends prematurely).

            I have little doubt that an immersion method is superior in many
            respects, but I don't see how to accomplish that alone and on the road.

            (Tune of Green Acres)
            Rote memorization is the way for me.
            to learn two thousand Japanese kanji
            Filling notepads,
            with so many
            Endless Repitition,
            gives me the language key.

            (now ... Live! in VA!) Otagiri
          • Ii Saburou
            ... E.g. To Kiss --in Japanese you can say Kuchi(d)zukeru but it is not the same as to kiss , and when used in the English sense I ve most often seen the
            Message 5 of 26 , Jan 3, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              On Sun, 2 Jan 2005, Solveig wrote:

              >> The Chinese and Japanese are people from well developed societies, they
              >> have concepts and thoughts very similar to their Western counterparts.
              >> I'm not a subscriber to Nihonron or any of that silliness.
              >
              > I am not a subscriber to nihonron either, but the notion that Japanese and
              > English are equivalent is laughable. There are things which are easier and
              > more natural to express in each of these languages. Even if something can
              > be easily expressed in both languages does not mean that you will see a
              > 1:1 word mapping.

              E.g. 'To Kiss'--in Japanese you can say 'Kuchi(d)zukeru' but it is not the
              same as 'to kiss', and when used in the English sense I've most often seen
              the English ('kisu') used.

              -Ii
            • James Eckman
              ... I seem to remember period Japanese didn t kiss like Westerners, chalk up another one to corrupting Western influences ;) Most of our ancestors would not
              Message 6 of 26 , Jan 4, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                > From: Ii Saburou <logan@...>
                >
                >
                >E.g. 'To Kiss'--in Japanese you can say 'Kuchi(d)zukeru' but it is not the
                >same as 'to kiss', and when used in the English sense I've most often seen
                >the English ('kisu') used.
                >
                >
                I seem to remember period Japanese didn't kiss like Westerners, chalk up
                another one to corrupting Western influences ;) Most of our ancestors
                would not understand many of our practices either. Hollywood, tourism
                and everything else has radically changed the modern Japanese in a very
                short period of time.

                > From: Solveig <nostrand@...>
                >
                >Greetings from Solveig! The Japanese were doing a very good job of nibbling
                >away at China until the U.S. intervened in the late 1930's early 1940's.
                >
                >
                Even afterwards. The current government had really lost the mandate of
                heaven!

                > From: Solveig <nostrand@...>
                >
                >Invading Korea and China was quite rational and a far better alternative
                >than trying to follow the example of the Minamoto following the Genpei War.
                >Basically, the Japanese had raised huge armies which expected loot. Not
                >to mention the large number off defeated soldiers who needed someplace to
                >go.
                >
                >
                I agree, this is a very important reason. They really didn't do so badly
                except that the Japanese naval forces stunk, this is not good for over
                the water invasions.

                >Remember the Iberians were there! The Japanese constructed fairly modern
                >(for the time) vessels toward the end of the sixteenth and the begining
                >of the seventeenth centuries.
                >
                >
                Japanese merchant vessels (at least to 1619) were limited to 250 koku
                capacity (approx. 52.25 cubic meters). So probably about 30 feet (10
                meters) long max. Adequate but not very impressive.

                It is also known that at least one of the ships Will Adams constructed
                for Ieyasu was of "more than 100 tons" (G. Sansom, _History of Japan,
                1334-1615_, n. p. 403). A bit more impressive but later!

                According to my book on Japanese Merchant Shipping, Date Masamune
                (1566-1636) built a ship in his own fief to send to Rome. I suspect it
                was at least a partial copy of Chinese/Korean or European vessels. It
                apparently reached Mexico also! It was probably quite decent sized.

                >From: Ii Saburou <logan@...>
                >
                >
                >If you look, there aren't easier pickings.
                >
                Especially for a folk who weren't really great sailors.

                >Then Perry comes in his Black Ships and forcibly requires Japan to open
                >its doors. Up and coming Japanese come to the realization that the world
                >will come to them unless they learn to keep the world out, and they build
                >up a Navy and Army that are able to dominate their section of the world,
                >defeating both the Chinese and the Russians.
                >
                >
                In a very short period of time too! In the mid 1880's they are about on
                par with the US, which is less impressive than it sounds.

                Jim Eckman
              • Solveig
                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... The Korean take on things is not so much that the Japanese naval forces stunk, but that the Korean naval forces were
                Message 7 of 26 , Jan 6, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  Noble Cousin!

                  Greetings from Solveig!

                  >I agree, this is a very important reason. They really didn't do so badly
                  >except that the Japanese naval forces stunk, this is not good for over
                  >the water invasions.

                  The Korean take on things is not so much that the Japanese naval forces
                  stunk, but that the Korean naval forces were really good. They do have a
                  point there. They had several turtles.

                  >In a very short period of time too! In the mid 1880's they are about on
                  >par with the US, which is less impressive than it sounds.

                  It's still doing fairly well. Shortly afterward, the Japanese take on the
                  Russians and win. The imperial navy mas modeled on the British navy and
                  the imperial army was modeled on the Prussian army. At the time, the
                  British was about the only real global navy. The Spanish were of course
                  in serious decline by this point and were dispatched by the Americans in
                  the Spanish-American War. The French Navy's fangs were pulled during the
                  Napoleonic Wars and the Germans were always a primarily continental power.

                  Equaling U.S. naval power during a period of projecting "manifest
                  destiny" overseas is significant. U.S. expatriots in Hawaii stage a
                  Coup d'Etat in 1893 and the Spanish American War was fought in 1898.
                  --

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar

                  +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                  | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                  | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                  +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to the |
                  | trash by my email filters. |
                  +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                • Ii Saburou
                  ... Which is fairly well substantiated by the history of the region: The Korean kingdoms were the ones that seem to have been doing much of the coastal trade.
                  Message 8 of 26 , Jan 6, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    On Thu, 6 Jan 2005, Solveig wrote:

                    > The Korean take on things is not so much that the Japanese naval forces
                    > stunk, but that the Korean naval forces were really good. They do have a
                    > point there. They had several turtles.

                    Which is fairly well substantiated by the history of the region: The
                    Korean kingdoms were the ones that seem to have been doing much of the
                    coastal trade. It was Korean ships and crews that piloted the Mongols
                    over to Japan. I seem to recall it was even Korea that helped furnish the
                    tributary ships which made it down around the tip of Africa (and possibly
                    farther).

                    In fact, the Japanese invasion only really seems to have worked because
                    they caught the Koreans sleeping--they had no idea that an invasion was
                    coming, and after the Japanese landed it was too late. Once they realized
                    it, though, they played terrible havoc with the Japanese supply
                    lines--attributed as one of the main reasons for Japanese defeat on the
                    penninsula, iirc.

                    -Ii
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.