Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: A thought experiment...

Expand Messages
  • Booknerd9@yahoo.com
    ... wrote: But what ... about ... weren t ... Well, it could have been through a series of middle-men. Japanese pottery gets traded to China or to local
    Message 1 of 27 , Jan 2, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1@c...>
      wrote:
      But what
      > confused me is that I've also read accounts, can't remember where,
      about
      > shards of Japanese pottery being found in the Americas. If they
      weren't
      > great sea farers, how did they get to the Americas? By accident?
      >
      > Kiri

      Well, it could have been through a series of middle-men. Japanese
      pottery gets traded to China or to local Europeans (most likely the
      Dutch or Portugese), these items get traded to the Middle Eastern
      traders (via China) or by that route or another, wind up in Europe.
      I guess the wares could have gotten picked up by some globe-trotting
      group and one shipwreck later (or a dropped box of some sea-farers
      treasured items), you've got some pottery named Shobu washing up on
      the shores of the Americas.
      In this case, the date could range wildly, as who says the traders
      wanted fresh from the kiln work? They might have been in the market
      for some antiques.
      Or, the pottery just sort of plopped into the Sea of Japan by itself
      and got taken by the currents to California or something. I'd need
      some more information on currents though.
      I did find an article online[1] that mentions the Japanese pottery
      fragments in the Americas but I'm going to say the case of the
      Buddhist monk on a Mexican vacation is most likely made up (after
      all, folktales can be misinterpreted as true stories, etc. such as
      in the case of Atlantis.) I'm skeptical...


      [1]http://www.millersv.edu/~columbus/papers/wrhagen.html
    • Ii Saburou
      ... There also appears to have been trade up through Alaska--it is forseeable that an item could follow trade routes around the Pacific Rim--Japan traded with
      Message 2 of 27 , Jan 2, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 Booknerd9@... wrote:

        > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1@c...> wrote:
        >> But what confused me is that I've also read accounts, can't remember
        >> where, about shards of Japanese pottery being found in the Americas.
        >> If they weren't great sea farers, how did they get to the Americas?
        >> By accident?
        >>
        >> Kiri
        >
        > Well, it could have been through a series of middle-men. Japanese
        > pottery gets traded to China or to local Europeans (most likely the
        > Dutch or Portugese), these items get traded to the Middle Eastern
        > traders (via China) or by that route or another, wind up in Europe.

        There also appears to have been trade up through Alaska--it is forseeable
        that an item could follow trade routes around the Pacific Rim--Japan
        traded with Korea and China, they probably traded with people along the
        Siberian coast, who traded with the Aleutian islands, who traded with the
        Inuit and Athabaskans, etc. This is all theory--some even suspect that
        the Chinese themselves made it to North America ("1421: The Year China
        Discovered America")--but we do know that some Chinese artifacts made it
        to British Columbia (coins) which were incorporated into local crafts.

        There is also talk about a Jomon pottery in Equador, but I find this claim
        much much more suspicious--I'd be more inclined to say that it developed
        independently than to think that early Japanese crossed the Pacific ocean
        with regular frequency but we only find the evidence in Ecuador. Of
        course, once you have cord-marked pottery in Ecuador, I would assume that
        any other instances in the Americas would probably be the result of trade.

        -Ii
      • Elaine Koogler
        ... It s this last one that I referred to...I ran across this when taking an archaeology course while working on my M.A. Evidently the pottery has been found
        Message 3 of 27 , Jan 2, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          Ii Saburou wrote:

          >
          > There also appears to have been trade up through Alaska--it is forseeable
          > that an item could follow trade routes around the Pacific Rim--Japan
          > traded with Korea and China, they probably traded with people along the
          > Siberian coast, who traded with the Aleutian islands, who traded with the
          > Inuit and Athabaskans, etc. This is all theory--some even suspect that
          > the Chinese themselves made it to North America ("1421: The Year China
          > Discovered America")--but we do know that some Chinese artifacts made it
          > to British Columbia (coins) which were incorporated into local crafts.
          >
          > There is also talk about a Jomon pottery in Equador, but I find this
          > claim
          > much much more suspicious--I'd be more inclined to say that it developed
          > independently than to think that early Japanese crossed the Pacific ocean
          > with regular frequency but we only find the evidence in Ecuador. Of
          > course, once you have cord-marked pottery in Ecuador, I would assume that
          > any other instances in the Americas would probably be the result of trade.
          >
          > -Ii
          >
          It's this last one that I referred to...I ran across this when taking an
          archaeology course while working on my M.A. Evidently the pottery has
          been found as far north as South Carolina, or so the claim went. I seem
          to vaguely remember ( you know...one of those pesky little facts that
          seems to tie up valuable brain cells) a rumor of a Japanese anchor being
          found somewhere off the West Coast...I think of central America. And
          all of it had to do with Jomon sailors...yes, it does seem a bit
          suspicious, but fun to think about!

          Kiri
        • Booknerd9@yahoo.com
          ... taking an ... has ... Well, I don t know if a test like this would work but would the pottery making techniques (i.e. kiln usage, temperature, glazes) and
          Message 4 of 27 , Jan 2, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            > >
            > It's this last one that I referred to...I ran across this when
            taking an
            > archaeology course while working on my M.A. Evidently the pottery
            has
            > been found as far north as South Carolina, or so the claim went.
            > Kiri

            Well, I don't know if a test like this would work but would the
            pottery making techniques (i.e. kiln usage, temperature, glazes) and
            soil/clay composition of Japan be different from that used in
            Equator? Considering that the article states the pottery was done in
            the 1950s, when archeological techniques weren't as high-tech as
            they were now, perhaps "looks like" was good enough. Then again, I
            know little about archeological methods and my generation, as a
            whole anyway, tends to look down on anything less advanced than a
            walkman, lol.

            But for some good reading as we fly off on a tangent, has anyone
            here read Guns, Germs and Steel? Pretty interesting, about how some
            nations become colonizers and others find themselves mowed over. I
            think in this book, the idea of techniques being discovered more
            than once was promoted, as many things such as agriculture and
            writing rose independantly.

            But hmn, this would make an interesting alternative history novel,
            where East Asia colonizes the West Coast and Meso-America- how would
            that have turned out...
          • Solveig
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... They were at various times bitten by the colonization bug. As I recall, in the early 17th century a good portion of
            Message 5 of 27 , Jan 2, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig!

              >I had an interesting thought the other day. Why were the Japanese not
              >bitten by the colonization bug the way the Europeans were?

              They were at various times bitten by the colonization bug. As I recall,
              in the early 17th century a good portion of Indochina was taken over by
              a Japanese adventurer, and the Japanese periodically tried to duke it
              out with China in Korea. The problem was that with China, Korea, and
              India parked relatively close at hand, the Japanese were not nearly as
              interested in taking over Indonesia, the Philipines, or East Africa.
              --

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar

              +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
              | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
              | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
              +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to the |
              | trash by my email filters. |
              +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
            • Solveig
              Kiri Hime! Greetings from Solveig! ... The Japanese built several large seagoing ships in the early seventeenth century. At least one of them sailed to Neuo
              Message 6 of 27 , Jan 2, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                Kiri Hime!

                Greetings from Solveig!

                >But what confused me is that I've also read accounts, can't remember
                >where, about shards of Japanese pottery being found in the Americas.
                >If they weren't
                >great sea farers, how did they get to the Americas? By accident?

                The Japanese built several large seagoing ships in the early seventeenth
                century. At least one of them sailed to Neuo Espania (Mexico).

                As for the Japan Current. Anyone growing up in the Pacific Northwest can
                tell you about Japanese glass fish floats washing ashore. The Japan Current
                runs into North America somewhere proximate to Grey's Harbour County,
                Washington.
                --

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar

                +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to the |
                | trash by my email filters. |
                +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
              • Ellen Davis
                ... The pottery in question is called Valdivia ware and does bear a marked similarity to certain Jomon styles from both Honshu and Kyushu. For a good long
                Message 7 of 27 , Jan 2, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  > There is also talk about a Jomon pottery in Equador, but I
                  > find this claim
                  > much much more suspicious--I'd be more inclined to say that
                  > it developed
                  > independently than to think that early Japanese crossed the
                  > Pacific ocean
                  > with regular frequency but we only find the evidence in Ecuador. Of
                  > course, once you have cord-marked pottery in Ecuador, I would
                  > assume that
                  > any other instances in the Americas would probably be the
                  > result of trade.
                  >
                  > -Ii

                  The pottery in question is called Valdivia ware and does bear a marked
                  similarity to certain Jomon styles from both Honshu and Kyushu. For a good
                  long time, it was thought to be the earliest pottery in the Americas,
                  leading some scholars to believe that it came about because a bunch of Jomon
                  sailors got shipwrecked on the coast of Ecuador (Japanese pottery, FYI, is
                  some of the-- if not THE-- earliest in the world). Nowadays the
                  "Jomon-Valdivia hypothesis" has pretty much been discredited, but the whole
                  thing is an interesting example of parallel development.

                  (Not to toot my own sho, but I wrote a paper on this whole shebang as part
                  of an American Prehistory class, and I'm posting it to the Files section
                  under "Valdivia.doc". It's a bit technical in places but I thought it might
                  be helpful and/or interesting.)

                  -Aine
                • Solveig
                  Ii Dono! Greetings from Solveig! I should also point out that the Haida of Vancouver, Island had large sea going canoes and practed celestial navigation.
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jan 2, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Ii Dono!

                    Greetings from Solveig! I should also point out that the Haida of Vancouver,
                    Island had large sea going canoes and practed celestial navigation. According
                    to Thor Hyrdahl, the Haida went all sorts of places including Easter Island
                    or some such place. The place with the huge stone statues as I recall.
                    --

                    Your Humble Servant
                    Solveig Throndardottir
                    Amateur Scholar

                    +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                    | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                    | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                    +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to the |
                    | trash by my email filters. |
                    +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  • Park McKellop
                    In one of my books, I have a piece of Japanese artwork that shows a demon that taught about certain herbal remedies. It looks like a human from the New
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jan 2, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      In one of my books, I have a piece of Japanese artwork that shows a 'demon' that taught about certain herbal remedies. It looks like a human from the New Guinea area, or possibly an African pygmy, due to the teeth being filed to points. Definitely 'black', and I think it was more evident an encounter with the NG area than Africa. When I get home, I'll try to pull it out. I rate it as only 'possible' not probable.

                      Why didn't they do the sea exploration thing? Too much empty water to the East? China had most of the coastal trade locked in? Japan was an introspective rather than explorative culture? No idea...

                      Alcyoneus



                      Booknerd9@... wrote:


                      > The Japanese tried the empire thing in the 1590s. They started with
                      > Korea. The plan was to go on into northern China.

                      Didn't the Japanese give this path of imperialism another try in the
                      early 20th century, sending the military into parts of China
                      (Manchuria? Or am I off) and Korea? Ok, ok, not Period.
                      Actually, I think there's a lot of information about the large sea-
                      faring enterprises of China (can't recall the exact time period). I
                      know there's a book called "1421: The Year the Chinese Discovered
                      America" but the author's theory is very very weak.

                      Sorry I'm rambling a bit; I guess that's the nature of the thought
                      experiment.





                      UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



                      ---------------------------------
                      Yahoo! Groups Links

                      To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/

                      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                      ---------------------------------
                      Do you Yahoo!?
                      The all-new My Yahoo! � What will yours do?

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Park McKellop
                      I think there were shards of pottery found on the western side of SA, that were similar, made with twisted rope designs rolled on the sides. Pretty simple
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jan 2, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I think there were shards of pottery found on the western side of SA, that were similar, made with twisted rope designs rolled on the sides. Pretty simple stuff, I don't know that it was so unique that it could only have come from Japan. Pottery isn't my thing, so I haven't studied any (or remembered) of the competing arguments.

                        Alcyoneus

                        Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1@...> wrote:
                        Booknerd9@... wrote:

                        >
                        >
                        > > The Japanese tried the empire thing in the 1590s. They started with
                        > > Korea. The plan was to go on into northern China.
                        >
                        > Didn't the Japanese give this path of imperialism another try in the
                        > early 20th century, sending the military into parts of China
                        > (Manchuria? Or am I off) and Korea? Ok, ok, not Period.
                        > Actually, I think there's a lot of information about the large sea-
                        > faring enterprises of China (can't recall the exact time period). I
                        > know there's a book called "1421: The Year the Chinese Discovered
                        > America" but the author's theory is very very weak.
                        >
                        > Sorry I'm rambling a bit; I guess that's the nature of the thought
                        > experiment.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        No, I think that's the way this thing is supposed to work. I remember
                        being somewhat confused by reading in one place that the Japanese
                        typically didn't go much beyond the seas immediately surrounding their
                        islands as this was not their strong point. I know they did invade
                        Korea on several occasions...in fact, they brought Korean potters back
                        to Japan on at least two of those ventures. And, of course, there is
                        that empire-building venture in the mid-Twentieth century. But what
                        confused me is that I've also read accounts, can't remember where, about
                        shards of Japanese pottery being found in the Americas. If they weren't
                        great sea farers, how did they get to the Americas? By accident?

                        Kiri



                        UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



                        ---------------------------------
                        Yahoo! Groups Links

                        To visit your group on the web, go to:
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/

                        To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


                        __________________________________________________
                        Do You Yahoo!?
                        Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                        http://mail.yahoo.com

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • mattfmcti
                        ... I m getting an image of a man beating his head against a brick wall...how many ultimately futile expeditions did the Japanese send to Korea through the
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jan 3, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          > They were at various times bitten by the colonization bug. As I recall,
                          > in the early 17th century a good portion of Indochina was taken over by
                          > a Japanese adventurer, and the Japanese periodically tried to duke it
                          > out with China in Korea. The problem was that with China, Korea, and
                          > India parked relatively close at hand, the Japanese were not nearly as
                          > interested in taking over Indonesia, the Philipines, or East Africa.

                          I'm getting an image of a man beating his head against a brick
                          wall...how many ultimately futile expeditions did the Japanese send to
                          Korea through the ages? One would guess that, with easier pickings
                          elsewhere, they might have learned to just forget Korea. *The Big
                          Question* What is the morbid Japanese facination with Korea anyway?
                          Was it seen as a beach head into China (T'ien Xia...I love Hero, esp.
                          in Mandarin)? I just finished reading "The Seven Military Classics of
                          Ancient China" (trans. by Sawyer), and the size of the armies even the
                          Warring States era kingdoms were able to field was staggering. Was
                          Japan ever able to field an army of the size needed to conquer China?
                          It boggles the mind how many troops one would need. It just doesn't
                          make sense, strategically, to even attempt it. One would think that
                          the Japanese generals, having studied the various Chinese military
                          works, would have seen this.

                          On a side note, I've been studying the various Chinese dynasties. Did
                          the Japanese transition from the Nara-jidai to the Heian-jidai have
                          anything to do with the decline of the T'ang, since both happened in
                          relatively the same time frame, or was the break in diplomatic
                          relations and cultural ties due to other forces?

                          Fujiwara Takaharu
                        • John Mooers
                          Fujiwara-tono, Hideyoshi was unrealistic in his estimations when using Korea as the on-ramp to China. Some say he was insane when ordering the second (or even
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jan 3, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Fujiwara-tono,
                            Hideyoshi was unrealistic in his estimations when using Korea as the on-ramp to China. Some say he was insane when ordering the second (or even first) invasion. The second invasion was more to consolidate Japanese hold on southern Korea than a true invasion of China. If he had truly read and digested the classics he may not have gone into China. Generals vied with each other for glory as much as your average Samurai competed to be the first spear or first over the wall. Date Masamune was the only Daiymo to actually make it into China but didn't stay long. Taking more rice land was always good.
                            Japan, Korea, and China subjected each other to exchanges of culture, religion, and piracy. Most nations that focus on colonization already have a well consolidated homeland and national government. This did not occur in Japan until the Tokuwaga Bakufu and their initial forays into trade expeditions died when they closed the country to outsiders.
                            Focus on the "unique and divine" nature of the home islands perhaps made conquest of other lands less attractive. Travel by the relatively primitive native vessels from Japan to the east Indies was dangerous and communication problems made military activities less attractive. Conquest of Korea and Manchuria is far more attractive from an operational and economic perspective. Manchuria and Korea abound in raw materials the way Japan abounds in scenic mountains. A nation with burgeoning population and lack of available land looks to add land, not just resources, and Indonesia has resources but not nearly the land area of Asia.
                            Then there is the psychological aspect. China as the font of culture and "big brother" in Asia was seen as conquerable. Consider you are a fanatically ambitious Daimyo who cannot be Emperor of Japan since you (a) are born in the wrong family and (b) have no daughter married to the ruling Emperor. You also cannot be Shogun since you are not from the right family...and you REALLY want to be Emperor. You remember that the Mongols conquered China but not Japan. You believe that the Gods raised the kamikaze to defeat the Mongols with their Chinese and Korean lackeys. After being the only guy to unite, decisively, a archipelago of factious warlords you might think anything is possible.
                            Remember, Alexander just kept conquering until his army mutinied.

                            Date Genshiro Toshinobu
                            Yama Kaminari Ryu

                            mattfmcti <mattfmcti@...> wrote:


                            > They were at various times bitten by the colonization bug. As I recall,
                            > in the early 17th century a good portion of Indochina was taken over by
                            > a Japanese adventurer, and the Japanese periodically tried to duke it
                            > out with China in Korea. The problem was that with China, Korea, and
                            > India parked relatively close at hand, the Japanese were not nearly as
                            > interested in taking over Indonesia, the Philipines, or East Africa.

                            I'm getting an image of a man beating his head against a brick
                            wall...how many ultimately futile expeditions did the Japanese send to
                            Korea through the ages? One would guess that, with easier pickings
                            elsewhere, they might have learned to just forget Korea. *The Big
                            Question* What is the morbid Japanese facination with Korea anyway?
                            Was it seen as a beach head into China (T'ien Xia...I love Hero, esp.
                            in Mandarin)? I just finished reading "The Seven Military Classics of
                            Ancient China" (trans. by Sawyer), and the size of the armies even the
                            Warring States era kingdoms were able to field was staggering. Was
                            Japan ever able to field an army of the size needed to conquer China?
                            It boggles the mind how many troops one would need. It just doesn't
                            make sense, strategically, to even attempt it. One would think that
                            the Japanese generals, having studied the various Chinese military
                            works, would have seen this.

                            On a side note, I've been studying the various Chinese dynasties. Did
                            the Japanese transition from the Nara-jidai to the Heian-jidai have
                            anything to do with the decline of the T'ang, since both happened in
                            relatively the same time frame, or was the break in diplomatic
                            relations and cultural ties due to other forces?

                            Fujiwara Takaharu





                            UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



                            ---------------------------------
                            Yahoo! Groups Links

                            To visit your group on the web, go to:
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/

                            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




                            ---------------------------------
                            Do you Yahoo!?
                            Meet the all-new My Yahoo! � Try it today!

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Ii Saburou
                            ... Sounds like you are talking about this: http://www.users.on.net/~mkfenn/page2.htm I find some of it interesting because the origin myths given are
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jan 3, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment
                              On Sun, 2 Jan 2005, Solveig wrote:

                              > Ii Dono!
                              >
                              > Greetings from Solveig! I should also point out that the Haida of Vancouver,
                              > Island had large sea going canoes and practed celestial navigation. According
                              > to Thor Hyrdahl, the Haida went all sorts of places including Easter Island
                              > or some such place. The place with the huge stone statues as I recall.

                              Sounds like you are talking about this:
                              http://www.users.on.net/~mkfenn/page2.htm

                              I find some of it interesting because the origin myths given are different
                              than the ones I learned, which were Tlinget. Also, I saw a lot of stuff
                              that is questionable or, I believe, outright wrong (e.g. the 'sunken
                              structures' near Japan are more reasonably natural formations--there was a
                              great show on this just a few weeks back on Discovery, I believe).

                              -Ii
                            • Solveig
                              Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! The Japanese were doing a very good job of nibbling away at China until the U.S. intervened in the late 1930 s early
                              Message 14 of 27 , Jan 3, 2005
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Noble Cousin!

                                Greetings from Solveig! The Japanese were doing a very good job of nibbling
                                away at China until the U.S. intervened in the late 1930's early 1940's.
                                Even in August of 1945, the Japanese had an operational army in China with
                                more a million troops. If memory serves correctly of course.
                                --

                                Your Humble Servant
                                Solveig Throndardottir
                                Amateur Scholar

                                +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                                +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to the |
                                | trash by my email filters. |
                                +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                              • Solveig
                                Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! ... Invading Korea and China was quite rational and a far better alternative than trying to follow the example of the
                                Message 15 of 27 , Jan 3, 2005
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Noble Cousins!

                                  Greetings from Solveig!

                                  > Hideyoshi was unrealistic in his estimations when using Korea
                                  >as the on-ramp to China. Some say he was insane when ordering the
                                  >second (or even first) invasion. The second invasion was more to
                                  >consolidate Japanese hold on southern Korea than a true invasion of
                                  >China. If he had truly read and digested the classics he may not
                                  >have gone into China. Generals vied with each other for glory as
                                  >much as your average Samurai competed to be the first spear or first
                                  >over the wall. Date Masamune was the only Daiymo to actually make
                                  >it into China but didn't stay long. Taking more rice land was
                                  >always good.

                                  Invading Korea and China was quite rational and a far better alternative
                                  than trying to follow the example of the Minamoto following the Genpei War.
                                  Basically, the Japanese had raised huge armies which expected loot. Not
                                  to mention the large number off defeated soldiers who needed someplace to
                                  go.

                                  > Focus on the "unique and divine" nature of the home islands
                                  >perhaps made conquest of other lands less attractive. Travel by the
                                  >relatively primitive native vessels from Japan to the east Indies
                                  >was dangerous and communication problems made military activities
                                  >less attractive. Conquest of Korea and Manchuria is far more
                                  >attractive from an operational and economic perspective. Manchuria
                                  >and Korea abound in raw materials the way Japan abounds in scenic
                                  >mountains. A nation with burgeoning population and lack of
                                  >available land looks to add land, not just resources, and Indonesia
                                  >has resources but not nearly the land area of Asia.

                                  Remember the Iberians were there! The Japanese constructed fairly modern
                                  (for the time) vessels toward the end of the sixteenth and the begining
                                  of the seventeenth centuries. As for the comparative attractiveness of
                                  China, that point is well taken, and I tried to raise it myself in an
                                  earlier posting.
                                  --

                                  Your Humble Servant
                                  Solveig Throndardottir
                                  Amateur Scholar

                                  +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                  | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                  | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                  | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                                  +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                  | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to the |
                                  | trash by my email filters. |
                                  +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                • Ii Saburou
                                  ... If you look, there aren t easier pickings. For most of Japan s history, they have to island hop to get to the mainland--it is just far enough that if you
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Jan 3, 2005
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    On Mon, 3 Jan 2005, mattfmcti wrote:

                                    > I'm getting an image of a man beating his head against a brick
                                    > wall...how many ultimately futile expeditions did the Japanese send to
                                    > Korea through the ages? One would guess that, with easier pickings
                                    > elsewhere, they might have learned to just forget Korea. *The Big
                                    > Question* What is the morbid Japanese facination with Korea anyway?

                                    If you look, there aren't easier pickings. For most of Japan's history,
                                    they have to island hop to get to the mainland--it is just far enough that
                                    if you start sailing without some kind of guide, you can end up way off
                                    course. This is one of the reasons the Mongol invasion took the same
                                    route in to Japan both times.

                                    If Japan wanted resources outside of their own country, Korea was their
                                    ticket. They could try to go north and finally take Hokkaido and up that
                                    direction, but why? What is there for them? It is cold, and the people
                                    are primitive so you aren't bringing back great plunder.

                                    Korea on the other hand, has historical value as well. Japan's early
                                    legends/history tell of their conquering Korea--Empress Jingo Kogo in 366,
                                    according to tradition. Japan later started losing its foothold in Korea.
                                    Once back on the home islands, Japan had enough trouble with the local
                                    Emishi that they don't seem to have been much inclined to try to expand.

                                    As Emishi are being put down in the provinces, the life of the court grows
                                    more insular. They are more concerned with what is going on in the
                                    capital than outside. They lose effective control of the provinces, and
                                    the warrior caste comes to power. Despite 'unification', there is still
                                    enough to keep the Japanese busy, especially when the Mongols decide to
                                    come to them. Finally, after an imperial dynastic struggle and Japan's
                                    own warring states period you finally have a warlord who has sufficiently
                                    pacified the nation to continue his ambitions further. Since the only
                                    really accessible piece of land is Korea, there he goes.

                                    One--if not *the*--problem Toyotomi had was he wouldn't remain satisfied
                                    with Korea. He got it into his head he could take on the whole of China.
                                    The Chinese were rather content to let him come through Korea--they didn't
                                    really care so much about it--but when they saw he wanted to come further
                                    they decided it would be better to fight that war on someone else's
                                    territory, and so march the Japanese off the Penninsula.

                                    Japan decides to become insular again, and without outside pressure, they
                                    content themselves with their islands.

                                    Then Perry comes in his Black Ships and forcibly requires Japan to open
                                    its doors. Up and coming Japanese come to the realization that the world
                                    will come to them unless they learn to keep the world out, and they build
                                    up a Navy and Army that are able to dominate their section of the world,
                                    defeating both the Chinese and the Russians.

                                    Japan then goes for Korea again because of the resources required to keep
                                    up with the industrialization. Also, no doubt, they are taking lessons
                                    from the British as to how the Brits became a great world-spanning Empire
                                    from just a small island nation.

                                    Japan actually keeps Korea this time until the end of WWWII.

                                    So, all in all, Korea wasn't a bad move for Japan at any point in its
                                    history, as I can see it.

                                    -Ii
                                  • James Eckman
                                    ... It s cool, it s interesting. ... Is the sea blue? That s what we in the west say even though it s more likely to be a yucky kind of turquoise most of the
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Jan 3, 2005
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      sca-jml@yahoogroups.com wrote:

                                      >From: "Ellen Davis" <ellen.m.davis@...>
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >The pottery in question is called Valdivia ware and does bear a marked
                                      >similarity to certain Jomon styles from both Honshu and Kyushu.
                                      >
                                      >(Not to toot my own sho, but I wrote a paper on this whole shebang as part
                                      >of an American Prehistory class, and I'm posting it to the Files section
                                      >under "Valdivia.doc". It's a bit technical in places but I thought it might
                                      >be helpful and/or interesting.)
                                      >
                                      >
                                      It's cool, it's interesting.

                                      >From: Solveig <nostrand@...>
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >No there are not. This is patently false. The canonical and well worn
                                      >example is aoi.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      Is the sea blue? That's what we in the west say even though it's more
                                      likely to be a yucky kind of turquoise most of the time. Color words are
                                      not very precise in English, or even between people with the same
                                      background and language.

                                      >I am not a subscriber to nihonron either, but the notion that Japanese and
                                      >English are equivalent is laughable.
                                      >
                                      Certainly much closer than Navajo or some of the really far out tribal
                                      languages. I guess all those translator's out there are just ripping us
                                      off ;)

                                      >There are things which are easier and
                                      >more natural to express in each of these languages. Even if something can
                                      >be easily expressed in both languages does not mean that you will see a
                                      >1:1 word mapping.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      For more complex concepts that's true. Actually for pre-1900's Japan I
                                      would say love is tough word to translate in either direction.

                                      > From: "mattfmcti" <mattfmcti@...>
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >I'm getting an image of a man beating his head against a brick
                                      >wall...how many ultimately futile expeditions did the Japanese send to
                                      >Korea through the ages? One would guess that, with easier pickings
                                      >elsewhere, they might have learned to just forget Korea.
                                      >
                                      Why are the Turks and Greeks still fighting, why did the French and
                                      English always fight each other? It's all part of being neighborly ;)

                                      Jim Eckman
                                    • Solveig
                                      Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solvieg! Love is indeed another interesting word. Ancient Greek had four words for love . Modern Japanese has more than one.
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Jan 4, 2005
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Noble Cousins!

                                        Greetings from Solvieg! "Love" is indeed another interesting word. Ancient
                                        Greek had four words for "love". Modern Japanese has more than one. Arguably
                                        English has at least two common words: "love" and "lust".
                                        --

                                        Your Humble Servant
                                        Solveig Throndardottir
                                        Amateur Scholar

                                        +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                        | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                        | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                                        +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                        | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to the |
                                        | trash by my email filters. |
                                        +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                      • mattfmcti
                                        ... nibbling ... China with ... IIRC, Japan was also technologically superior to China, having spent the last 40-50 years modernizing the country at warp
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Jan 4, 2005
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          > Noble Cousin!
                                          >
                                          > Greetings from Solveig! The Japanese were doing a very good job of
                                          nibbling
                                          > away at China until the U.S. intervened in the late 1930's early 1940's.
                                          > Even in August of 1945, the Japanese had an operational army in
                                          China with
                                          > more a million troops. If memory serves correctly of course.

                                          IIRC, Japan was also technologically superior to China, having spent
                                          the last 40-50 years modernizing the country at warp speed. I believe
                                          the Chinese resistance during WWII was using U.S.-supplied arms and
                                          supplies, because they either didn't have the facilities to make there
                                          own or the Japanese had bombed/taken them.

                                          Besides, don't you know....you NEVER get involved in a land war with
                                          Asia. ^_^

                                          Fujiwara
                                        • David Williams
                                          ... And never challenge a Sicillian when death is on the line!!!! Cristen __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Jan 4, 2005
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            >
                                            > Besides, don't you know....you NEVER get involved in
                                            > a land war with
                                            > Asia. ^_^
                                            >
                                            > Fujiwara
                                            >
                                            >
                                            And never challenge a Sicillian when death is on the
                                            line!!!!

                                            Cristen



                                            __________________________________
                                            Do you Yahoo!?
                                            Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
                                            http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                                          • Solveig
                                            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... As the author of Empire of the Sun put it, the Japanese make machines and the Chinese break machines . -- Your
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Jan 4, 2005
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Noble Cousin!

                                              Greetings from Solveig!

                                              >IIRC, Japan was also technologically superior to China,

                                              As the author of "Empire of the Sun" put it, "the Japanese make machines
                                              and the Chinese break machines".
                                              --

                                              Your Humble Servant
                                              Solveig Throndardottir
                                              Amateur Scholar

                                              +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                              | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                              | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                              | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                                              +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                              | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to the |
                                              | trash by my email filters. |
                                              +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                            • Park McKellop
                                              Never bet with a Sicilian. It is inconceivable. Alcyoneus ... And never challenge a Sicillian when death is on the line!!!! Cristen
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Jan 4, 2005
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Never bet with a Sicilian.

                                                It is inconceivable.

                                                Alcyoneus

                                                David Williams <gary7williams@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Besides, don't you know....you NEVER get involved in
                                                > a land war with
                                                > Asia. ^_^
                                                >
                                                > Fujiwara
                                                >
                                                >
                                                And never challenge a Sicillian when death is on the
                                                line!!!!

                                                Cristen



                                                __________________________________
                                                Do you Yahoo!?
                                                Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
                                                http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


                                                UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



                                                ---------------------------------
                                                Yahoo! Groups Links

                                                To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/

                                                To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                                                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                                                ---------------------------------
                                                Do you Yahoo!?
                                                Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more.

                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Park McKellop
                                                It is still today. I wouldn t hesitate to buy a Japanese tool or machine. I would buy a Chinese tool or machine only if I could afford to think of it as a
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Jan 5, 2005
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  It is still today. I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Japanese tool or machine. I would buy a Chinese tool or machine only if I could afford to think of it as a disposable tool, or could afford nothing better.

                                                  Alcyoneus


                                                  >IIRC, Japan was also technologically superior to China,

                                                  As the author of "Empire of the Sun" put it, "the Japanese make machines
                                                  and the Chinese break machines".
                                                  --

                                                  Your Humble Servant
                                                  Solveig Throndardottir
                                                  Amateur Scholar

                                                  +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                                  | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                                  | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                                  | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                                                  +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                                  | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to the |
                                                  | trash by my email filters. |
                                                  +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+


                                                  UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



                                                  ---------------------------------
                                                  Yahoo! Groups Links

                                                  To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/

                                                  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                  sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                                                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


                                                  __________________________________________________
                                                  Do You Yahoo!?
                                                  Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                                  http://mail.yahoo.com

                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.