Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: A thought experiment...

Expand Messages
  • Booknerd9@yahoo.com
    ... Didn t the Japanese give this path of imperialism another try in the early 20th century, sending the military into parts of China (Manchuria? Or am I off)
    Message 1 of 27 , Jan 2, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      > The Japanese tried the empire thing in the 1590s. They started with
      > Korea. The plan was to go on into northern China.

      Didn't the Japanese give this path of imperialism another try in the
      early 20th century, sending the military into parts of China
      (Manchuria? Or am I off) and Korea? Ok, ok, not Period.
      Actually, I think there's a lot of information about the large sea-
      faring enterprises of China (can't recall the exact time period). I
      know there's a book called "1421: The Year the Chinese Discovered
      America" but the author's theory is very very weak.

      Sorry I'm rambling a bit; I guess that's the nature of the thought
      experiment.
    • Elaine Koogler
      ... No, I think that s the way this thing is supposed to work. I remember being somewhat confused by reading in one place that the Japanese typically didn t
      Message 2 of 27 , Jan 2, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        Booknerd9@... wrote:

        >
        >
        > > The Japanese tried the empire thing in the 1590s. They started with
        > > Korea. The plan was to go on into northern China.
        >
        > Didn't the Japanese give this path of imperialism another try in the
        > early 20th century, sending the military into parts of China
        > (Manchuria? Or am I off) and Korea? Ok, ok, not Period.
        > Actually, I think there's a lot of information about the large sea-
        > faring enterprises of China (can't recall the exact time period). I
        > know there's a book called "1421: The Year the Chinese Discovered
        > America" but the author's theory is very very weak.
        >
        > Sorry I'm rambling a bit; I guess that's the nature of the thought
        > experiment.
        >
        >
        >
        No, I think that's the way this thing is supposed to work. I remember
        being somewhat confused by reading in one place that the Japanese
        typically didn't go much beyond the seas immediately surrounding their
        islands as this was not their strong point. I know they did invade
        Korea on several occasions...in fact, they brought Korean potters back
        to Japan on at least two of those ventures. And, of course, there is
        that empire-building venture in the mid-Twentieth century. But what
        confused me is that I've also read accounts, can't remember where, about
        shards of Japanese pottery being found in the Americas. If they weren't
        great sea farers, how did they get to the Americas? By accident?

        Kiri
      • Booknerd9@yahoo.com
        ... wrote: But what ... about ... weren t ... Well, it could have been through a series of middle-men. Japanese pottery gets traded to China or to local
        Message 3 of 27 , Jan 2, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1@c...>
          wrote:
          But what
          > confused me is that I've also read accounts, can't remember where,
          about
          > shards of Japanese pottery being found in the Americas. If they
          weren't
          > great sea farers, how did they get to the Americas? By accident?
          >
          > Kiri

          Well, it could have been through a series of middle-men. Japanese
          pottery gets traded to China or to local Europeans (most likely the
          Dutch or Portugese), these items get traded to the Middle Eastern
          traders (via China) or by that route or another, wind up in Europe.
          I guess the wares could have gotten picked up by some globe-trotting
          group and one shipwreck later (or a dropped box of some sea-farers
          treasured items), you've got some pottery named Shobu washing up on
          the shores of the Americas.
          In this case, the date could range wildly, as who says the traders
          wanted fresh from the kiln work? They might have been in the market
          for some antiques.
          Or, the pottery just sort of plopped into the Sea of Japan by itself
          and got taken by the currents to California or something. I'd need
          some more information on currents though.
          I did find an article online[1] that mentions the Japanese pottery
          fragments in the Americas but I'm going to say the case of the
          Buddhist monk on a Mexican vacation is most likely made up (after
          all, folktales can be misinterpreted as true stories, etc. such as
          in the case of Atlantis.) I'm skeptical...


          [1]http://www.millersv.edu/~columbus/papers/wrhagen.html
        • Ii Saburou
          ... There also appears to have been trade up through Alaska--it is forseeable that an item could follow trade routes around the Pacific Rim--Japan traded with
          Message 4 of 27 , Jan 2, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 Booknerd9@... wrote:

            > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1@c...> wrote:
            >> But what confused me is that I've also read accounts, can't remember
            >> where, about shards of Japanese pottery being found in the Americas.
            >> If they weren't great sea farers, how did they get to the Americas?
            >> By accident?
            >>
            >> Kiri
            >
            > Well, it could have been through a series of middle-men. Japanese
            > pottery gets traded to China or to local Europeans (most likely the
            > Dutch or Portugese), these items get traded to the Middle Eastern
            > traders (via China) or by that route or another, wind up in Europe.

            There also appears to have been trade up through Alaska--it is forseeable
            that an item could follow trade routes around the Pacific Rim--Japan
            traded with Korea and China, they probably traded with people along the
            Siberian coast, who traded with the Aleutian islands, who traded with the
            Inuit and Athabaskans, etc. This is all theory--some even suspect that
            the Chinese themselves made it to North America ("1421: The Year China
            Discovered America")--but we do know that some Chinese artifacts made it
            to British Columbia (coins) which were incorporated into local crafts.

            There is also talk about a Jomon pottery in Equador, but I find this claim
            much much more suspicious--I'd be more inclined to say that it developed
            independently than to think that early Japanese crossed the Pacific ocean
            with regular frequency but we only find the evidence in Ecuador. Of
            course, once you have cord-marked pottery in Ecuador, I would assume that
            any other instances in the Americas would probably be the result of trade.

            -Ii
          • Elaine Koogler
            ... It s this last one that I referred to...I ran across this when taking an archaeology course while working on my M.A. Evidently the pottery has been found
            Message 5 of 27 , Jan 2, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              Ii Saburou wrote:

              >
              > There also appears to have been trade up through Alaska--it is forseeable
              > that an item could follow trade routes around the Pacific Rim--Japan
              > traded with Korea and China, they probably traded with people along the
              > Siberian coast, who traded with the Aleutian islands, who traded with the
              > Inuit and Athabaskans, etc. This is all theory--some even suspect that
              > the Chinese themselves made it to North America ("1421: The Year China
              > Discovered America")--but we do know that some Chinese artifacts made it
              > to British Columbia (coins) which were incorporated into local crafts.
              >
              > There is also talk about a Jomon pottery in Equador, but I find this
              > claim
              > much much more suspicious--I'd be more inclined to say that it developed
              > independently than to think that early Japanese crossed the Pacific ocean
              > with regular frequency but we only find the evidence in Ecuador. Of
              > course, once you have cord-marked pottery in Ecuador, I would assume that
              > any other instances in the Americas would probably be the result of trade.
              >
              > -Ii
              >
              It's this last one that I referred to...I ran across this when taking an
              archaeology course while working on my M.A. Evidently the pottery has
              been found as far north as South Carolina, or so the claim went. I seem
              to vaguely remember ( you know...one of those pesky little facts that
              seems to tie up valuable brain cells) a rumor of a Japanese anchor being
              found somewhere off the West Coast...I think of central America. And
              all of it had to do with Jomon sailors...yes, it does seem a bit
              suspicious, but fun to think about!

              Kiri
            • Booknerd9@yahoo.com
              ... taking an ... has ... Well, I don t know if a test like this would work but would the pottery making techniques (i.e. kiln usage, temperature, glazes) and
              Message 6 of 27 , Jan 2, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                > >
                > It's this last one that I referred to...I ran across this when
                taking an
                > archaeology course while working on my M.A. Evidently the pottery
                has
                > been found as far north as South Carolina, or so the claim went.
                > Kiri

                Well, I don't know if a test like this would work but would the
                pottery making techniques (i.e. kiln usage, temperature, glazes) and
                soil/clay composition of Japan be different from that used in
                Equator? Considering that the article states the pottery was done in
                the 1950s, when archeological techniques weren't as high-tech as
                they were now, perhaps "looks like" was good enough. Then again, I
                know little about archeological methods and my generation, as a
                whole anyway, tends to look down on anything less advanced than a
                walkman, lol.

                But for some good reading as we fly off on a tangent, has anyone
                here read Guns, Germs and Steel? Pretty interesting, about how some
                nations become colonizers and others find themselves mowed over. I
                think in this book, the idea of techniques being discovered more
                than once was promoted, as many things such as agriculture and
                writing rose independantly.

                But hmn, this would make an interesting alternative history novel,
                where East Asia colonizes the West Coast and Meso-America- how would
                that have turned out...
              • Solveig
                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... They were at various times bitten by the colonization bug. As I recall, in the early 17th century a good portion of
                Message 7 of 27 , Jan 2, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  Noble Cousin!

                  Greetings from Solveig!

                  >I had an interesting thought the other day. Why were the Japanese not
                  >bitten by the colonization bug the way the Europeans were?

                  They were at various times bitten by the colonization bug. As I recall,
                  in the early 17th century a good portion of Indochina was taken over by
                  a Japanese adventurer, and the Japanese periodically tried to duke it
                  out with China in Korea. The problem was that with China, Korea, and
                  India parked relatively close at hand, the Japanese were not nearly as
                  interested in taking over Indonesia, the Philipines, or East Africa.
                  --

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar

                  +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                  | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                  | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                  +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to the |
                  | trash by my email filters. |
                  +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                • Solveig
                  Kiri Hime! Greetings from Solveig! ... The Japanese built several large seagoing ships in the early seventeenth century. At least one of them sailed to Neuo
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jan 2, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Kiri Hime!

                    Greetings from Solveig!

                    >But what confused me is that I've also read accounts, can't remember
                    >where, about shards of Japanese pottery being found in the Americas.
                    >If they weren't
                    >great sea farers, how did they get to the Americas? By accident?

                    The Japanese built several large seagoing ships in the early seventeenth
                    century. At least one of them sailed to Neuo Espania (Mexico).

                    As for the Japan Current. Anyone growing up in the Pacific Northwest can
                    tell you about Japanese glass fish floats washing ashore. The Japan Current
                    runs into North America somewhere proximate to Grey's Harbour County,
                    Washington.
                    --

                    Your Humble Servant
                    Solveig Throndardottir
                    Amateur Scholar

                    +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                    | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                    | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                    +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to the |
                    | trash by my email filters. |
                    +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  • Ellen Davis
                    ... The pottery in question is called Valdivia ware and does bear a marked similarity to certain Jomon styles from both Honshu and Kyushu. For a good long
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jan 2, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      > There is also talk about a Jomon pottery in Equador, but I
                      > find this claim
                      > much much more suspicious--I'd be more inclined to say that
                      > it developed
                      > independently than to think that early Japanese crossed the
                      > Pacific ocean
                      > with regular frequency but we only find the evidence in Ecuador. Of
                      > course, once you have cord-marked pottery in Ecuador, I would
                      > assume that
                      > any other instances in the Americas would probably be the
                      > result of trade.
                      >
                      > -Ii

                      The pottery in question is called Valdivia ware and does bear a marked
                      similarity to certain Jomon styles from both Honshu and Kyushu. For a good
                      long time, it was thought to be the earliest pottery in the Americas,
                      leading some scholars to believe that it came about because a bunch of Jomon
                      sailors got shipwrecked on the coast of Ecuador (Japanese pottery, FYI, is
                      some of the-- if not THE-- earliest in the world). Nowadays the
                      "Jomon-Valdivia hypothesis" has pretty much been discredited, but the whole
                      thing is an interesting example of parallel development.

                      (Not to toot my own sho, but I wrote a paper on this whole shebang as part
                      of an American Prehistory class, and I'm posting it to the Files section
                      under "Valdivia.doc". It's a bit technical in places but I thought it might
                      be helpful and/or interesting.)

                      -Aine
                    • Solveig
                      Ii Dono! Greetings from Solveig! I should also point out that the Haida of Vancouver, Island had large sea going canoes and practed celestial navigation.
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jan 2, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Ii Dono!

                        Greetings from Solveig! I should also point out that the Haida of Vancouver,
                        Island had large sea going canoes and practed celestial navigation. According
                        to Thor Hyrdahl, the Haida went all sorts of places including Easter Island
                        or some such place. The place with the huge stone statues as I recall.
                        --

                        Your Humble Servant
                        Solveig Throndardottir
                        Amateur Scholar

                        +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                        | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                        | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                        +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                        | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to the |
                        | trash by my email filters. |
                        +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                      • Park McKellop
                        In one of my books, I have a piece of Japanese artwork that shows a demon that taught about certain herbal remedies. It looks like a human from the New
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jan 2, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          In one of my books, I have a piece of Japanese artwork that shows a 'demon' that taught about certain herbal remedies. It looks like a human from the New Guinea area, or possibly an African pygmy, due to the teeth being filed to points. Definitely 'black', and I think it was more evident an encounter with the NG area than Africa. When I get home, I'll try to pull it out. I rate it as only 'possible' not probable.

                          Why didn't they do the sea exploration thing? Too much empty water to the East? China had most of the coastal trade locked in? Japan was an introspective rather than explorative culture? No idea...

                          Alcyoneus



                          Booknerd9@... wrote:


                          > The Japanese tried the empire thing in the 1590s. They started with
                          > Korea. The plan was to go on into northern China.

                          Didn't the Japanese give this path of imperialism another try in the
                          early 20th century, sending the military into parts of China
                          (Manchuria? Or am I off) and Korea? Ok, ok, not Period.
                          Actually, I think there's a lot of information about the large sea-
                          faring enterprises of China (can't recall the exact time period). I
                          know there's a book called "1421: The Year the Chinese Discovered
                          America" but the author's theory is very very weak.

                          Sorry I'm rambling a bit; I guess that's the nature of the thought
                          experiment.





                          UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



                          ---------------------------------
                          Yahoo! Groups Links

                          To visit your group on the web, go to:
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/

                          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                          ---------------------------------
                          Do you Yahoo!?
                          The all-new My Yahoo! � What will yours do?

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Park McKellop
                          I think there were shards of pottery found on the western side of SA, that were similar, made with twisted rope designs rolled on the sides. Pretty simple
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jan 2, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I think there were shards of pottery found on the western side of SA, that were similar, made with twisted rope designs rolled on the sides. Pretty simple stuff, I don't know that it was so unique that it could only have come from Japan. Pottery isn't my thing, so I haven't studied any (or remembered) of the competing arguments.

                            Alcyoneus

                            Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1@...> wrote:
                            Booknerd9@... wrote:

                            >
                            >
                            > > The Japanese tried the empire thing in the 1590s. They started with
                            > > Korea. The plan was to go on into northern China.
                            >
                            > Didn't the Japanese give this path of imperialism another try in the
                            > early 20th century, sending the military into parts of China
                            > (Manchuria? Or am I off) and Korea? Ok, ok, not Period.
                            > Actually, I think there's a lot of information about the large sea-
                            > faring enterprises of China (can't recall the exact time period). I
                            > know there's a book called "1421: The Year the Chinese Discovered
                            > America" but the author's theory is very very weak.
                            >
                            > Sorry I'm rambling a bit; I guess that's the nature of the thought
                            > experiment.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            No, I think that's the way this thing is supposed to work. I remember
                            being somewhat confused by reading in one place that the Japanese
                            typically didn't go much beyond the seas immediately surrounding their
                            islands as this was not their strong point. I know they did invade
                            Korea on several occasions...in fact, they brought Korean potters back
                            to Japan on at least two of those ventures. And, of course, there is
                            that empire-building venture in the mid-Twentieth century. But what
                            confused me is that I've also read accounts, can't remember where, about
                            shards of Japanese pottery being found in the Americas. If they weren't
                            great sea farers, how did they get to the Americas? By accident?

                            Kiri



                            UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



                            ---------------------------------
                            Yahoo! Groups Links

                            To visit your group on the web, go to:
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/

                            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


                            __________________________________________________
                            Do You Yahoo!?
                            Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                            http://mail.yahoo.com

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • mattfmcti
                            ... I m getting an image of a man beating his head against a brick wall...how many ultimately futile expeditions did the Japanese send to Korea through the
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jan 3, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment
                              > They were at various times bitten by the colonization bug. As I recall,
                              > in the early 17th century a good portion of Indochina was taken over by
                              > a Japanese adventurer, and the Japanese periodically tried to duke it
                              > out with China in Korea. The problem was that with China, Korea, and
                              > India parked relatively close at hand, the Japanese were not nearly as
                              > interested in taking over Indonesia, the Philipines, or East Africa.

                              I'm getting an image of a man beating his head against a brick
                              wall...how many ultimately futile expeditions did the Japanese send to
                              Korea through the ages? One would guess that, with easier pickings
                              elsewhere, they might have learned to just forget Korea. *The Big
                              Question* What is the morbid Japanese facination with Korea anyway?
                              Was it seen as a beach head into China (T'ien Xia...I love Hero, esp.
                              in Mandarin)? I just finished reading "The Seven Military Classics of
                              Ancient China" (trans. by Sawyer), and the size of the armies even the
                              Warring States era kingdoms were able to field was staggering. Was
                              Japan ever able to field an army of the size needed to conquer China?
                              It boggles the mind how many troops one would need. It just doesn't
                              make sense, strategically, to even attempt it. One would think that
                              the Japanese generals, having studied the various Chinese military
                              works, would have seen this.

                              On a side note, I've been studying the various Chinese dynasties. Did
                              the Japanese transition from the Nara-jidai to the Heian-jidai have
                              anything to do with the decline of the T'ang, since both happened in
                              relatively the same time frame, or was the break in diplomatic
                              relations and cultural ties due to other forces?

                              Fujiwara Takaharu
                            • John Mooers
                              Fujiwara-tono, Hideyoshi was unrealistic in his estimations when using Korea as the on-ramp to China. Some say he was insane when ordering the second (or even
                              Message 14 of 27 , Jan 3, 2005
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Fujiwara-tono,
                                Hideyoshi was unrealistic in his estimations when using Korea as the on-ramp to China. Some say he was insane when ordering the second (or even first) invasion. The second invasion was more to consolidate Japanese hold on southern Korea than a true invasion of China. If he had truly read and digested the classics he may not have gone into China. Generals vied with each other for glory as much as your average Samurai competed to be the first spear or first over the wall. Date Masamune was the only Daiymo to actually make it into China but didn't stay long. Taking more rice land was always good.
                                Japan, Korea, and China subjected each other to exchanges of culture, religion, and piracy. Most nations that focus on colonization already have a well consolidated homeland and national government. This did not occur in Japan until the Tokuwaga Bakufu and their initial forays into trade expeditions died when they closed the country to outsiders.
                                Focus on the "unique and divine" nature of the home islands perhaps made conquest of other lands less attractive. Travel by the relatively primitive native vessels from Japan to the east Indies was dangerous and communication problems made military activities less attractive. Conquest of Korea and Manchuria is far more attractive from an operational and economic perspective. Manchuria and Korea abound in raw materials the way Japan abounds in scenic mountains. A nation with burgeoning population and lack of available land looks to add land, not just resources, and Indonesia has resources but not nearly the land area of Asia.
                                Then there is the psychological aspect. China as the font of culture and "big brother" in Asia was seen as conquerable. Consider you are a fanatically ambitious Daimyo who cannot be Emperor of Japan since you (a) are born in the wrong family and (b) have no daughter married to the ruling Emperor. You also cannot be Shogun since you are not from the right family...and you REALLY want to be Emperor. You remember that the Mongols conquered China but not Japan. You believe that the Gods raised the kamikaze to defeat the Mongols with their Chinese and Korean lackeys. After being the only guy to unite, decisively, a archipelago of factious warlords you might think anything is possible.
                                Remember, Alexander just kept conquering until his army mutinied.

                                Date Genshiro Toshinobu
                                Yama Kaminari Ryu

                                mattfmcti <mattfmcti@...> wrote:


                                > They were at various times bitten by the colonization bug. As I recall,
                                > in the early 17th century a good portion of Indochina was taken over by
                                > a Japanese adventurer, and the Japanese periodically tried to duke it
                                > out with China in Korea. The problem was that with China, Korea, and
                                > India parked relatively close at hand, the Japanese were not nearly as
                                > interested in taking over Indonesia, the Philipines, or East Africa.

                                I'm getting an image of a man beating his head against a brick
                                wall...how many ultimately futile expeditions did the Japanese send to
                                Korea through the ages? One would guess that, with easier pickings
                                elsewhere, they might have learned to just forget Korea. *The Big
                                Question* What is the morbid Japanese facination with Korea anyway?
                                Was it seen as a beach head into China (T'ien Xia...I love Hero, esp.
                                in Mandarin)? I just finished reading "The Seven Military Classics of
                                Ancient China" (trans. by Sawyer), and the size of the armies even the
                                Warring States era kingdoms were able to field was staggering. Was
                                Japan ever able to field an army of the size needed to conquer China?
                                It boggles the mind how many troops one would need. It just doesn't
                                make sense, strategically, to even attempt it. One would think that
                                the Japanese generals, having studied the various Chinese military
                                works, would have seen this.

                                On a side note, I've been studying the various Chinese dynasties. Did
                                the Japanese transition from the Nara-jidai to the Heian-jidai have
                                anything to do with the decline of the T'ang, since both happened in
                                relatively the same time frame, or was the break in diplomatic
                                relations and cultural ties due to other forces?

                                Fujiwara Takaharu





                                UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



                                ---------------------------------
                                Yahoo! Groups Links

                                To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/

                                To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




                                ---------------------------------
                                Do you Yahoo!?
                                Meet the all-new My Yahoo! � Try it today!

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Ii Saburou
                                ... Sounds like you are talking about this: http://www.users.on.net/~mkfenn/page2.htm I find some of it interesting because the origin myths given are
                                Message 15 of 27 , Jan 3, 2005
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  On Sun, 2 Jan 2005, Solveig wrote:

                                  > Ii Dono!
                                  >
                                  > Greetings from Solveig! I should also point out that the Haida of Vancouver,
                                  > Island had large sea going canoes and practed celestial navigation. According
                                  > to Thor Hyrdahl, the Haida went all sorts of places including Easter Island
                                  > or some such place. The place with the huge stone statues as I recall.

                                  Sounds like you are talking about this:
                                  http://www.users.on.net/~mkfenn/page2.htm

                                  I find some of it interesting because the origin myths given are different
                                  than the ones I learned, which were Tlinget. Also, I saw a lot of stuff
                                  that is questionable or, I believe, outright wrong (e.g. the 'sunken
                                  structures' near Japan are more reasonably natural formations--there was a
                                  great show on this just a few weeks back on Discovery, I believe).

                                  -Ii
                                • Solveig
                                  Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! The Japanese were doing a very good job of nibbling away at China until the U.S. intervened in the late 1930 s early
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Jan 3, 2005
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Noble Cousin!

                                    Greetings from Solveig! The Japanese were doing a very good job of nibbling
                                    away at China until the U.S. intervened in the late 1930's early 1940's.
                                    Even in August of 1945, the Japanese had an operational army in China with
                                    more a million troops. If memory serves correctly of course.
                                    --

                                    Your Humble Servant
                                    Solveig Throndardottir
                                    Amateur Scholar

                                    +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                    | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                    | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                    | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                                    +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                    | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to the |
                                    | trash by my email filters. |
                                    +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                  • Solveig
                                    Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! ... Invading Korea and China was quite rational and a far better alternative than trying to follow the example of the
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Jan 3, 2005
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Noble Cousins!

                                      Greetings from Solveig!

                                      > Hideyoshi was unrealistic in his estimations when using Korea
                                      >as the on-ramp to China. Some say he was insane when ordering the
                                      >second (or even first) invasion. The second invasion was more to
                                      >consolidate Japanese hold on southern Korea than a true invasion of
                                      >China. If he had truly read and digested the classics he may not
                                      >have gone into China. Generals vied with each other for glory as
                                      >much as your average Samurai competed to be the first spear or first
                                      >over the wall. Date Masamune was the only Daiymo to actually make
                                      >it into China but didn't stay long. Taking more rice land was
                                      >always good.

                                      Invading Korea and China was quite rational and a far better alternative
                                      than trying to follow the example of the Minamoto following the Genpei War.
                                      Basically, the Japanese had raised huge armies which expected loot. Not
                                      to mention the large number off defeated soldiers who needed someplace to
                                      go.

                                      > Focus on the "unique and divine" nature of the home islands
                                      >perhaps made conquest of other lands less attractive. Travel by the
                                      >relatively primitive native vessels from Japan to the east Indies
                                      >was dangerous and communication problems made military activities
                                      >less attractive. Conquest of Korea and Manchuria is far more
                                      >attractive from an operational and economic perspective. Manchuria
                                      >and Korea abound in raw materials the way Japan abounds in scenic
                                      >mountains. A nation with burgeoning population and lack of
                                      >available land looks to add land, not just resources, and Indonesia
                                      >has resources but not nearly the land area of Asia.

                                      Remember the Iberians were there! The Japanese constructed fairly modern
                                      (for the time) vessels toward the end of the sixteenth and the begining
                                      of the seventeenth centuries. As for the comparative attractiveness of
                                      China, that point is well taken, and I tried to raise it myself in an
                                      earlier posting.
                                      --

                                      Your Humble Servant
                                      Solveig Throndardottir
                                      Amateur Scholar

                                      +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                      | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                      | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                      | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                                      +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                      | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to the |
                                      | trash by my email filters. |
                                      +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                    • Ii Saburou
                                      ... If you look, there aren t easier pickings. For most of Japan s history, they have to island hop to get to the mainland--it is just far enough that if you
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Jan 3, 2005
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        On Mon, 3 Jan 2005, mattfmcti wrote:

                                        > I'm getting an image of a man beating his head against a brick
                                        > wall...how many ultimately futile expeditions did the Japanese send to
                                        > Korea through the ages? One would guess that, with easier pickings
                                        > elsewhere, they might have learned to just forget Korea. *The Big
                                        > Question* What is the morbid Japanese facination with Korea anyway?

                                        If you look, there aren't easier pickings. For most of Japan's history,
                                        they have to island hop to get to the mainland--it is just far enough that
                                        if you start sailing without some kind of guide, you can end up way off
                                        course. This is one of the reasons the Mongol invasion took the same
                                        route in to Japan both times.

                                        If Japan wanted resources outside of their own country, Korea was their
                                        ticket. They could try to go north and finally take Hokkaido and up that
                                        direction, but why? What is there for them? It is cold, and the people
                                        are primitive so you aren't bringing back great plunder.

                                        Korea on the other hand, has historical value as well. Japan's early
                                        legends/history tell of their conquering Korea--Empress Jingo Kogo in 366,
                                        according to tradition. Japan later started losing its foothold in Korea.
                                        Once back on the home islands, Japan had enough trouble with the local
                                        Emishi that they don't seem to have been much inclined to try to expand.

                                        As Emishi are being put down in the provinces, the life of the court grows
                                        more insular. They are more concerned with what is going on in the
                                        capital than outside. They lose effective control of the provinces, and
                                        the warrior caste comes to power. Despite 'unification', there is still
                                        enough to keep the Japanese busy, especially when the Mongols decide to
                                        come to them. Finally, after an imperial dynastic struggle and Japan's
                                        own warring states period you finally have a warlord who has sufficiently
                                        pacified the nation to continue his ambitions further. Since the only
                                        really accessible piece of land is Korea, there he goes.

                                        One--if not *the*--problem Toyotomi had was he wouldn't remain satisfied
                                        with Korea. He got it into his head he could take on the whole of China.
                                        The Chinese were rather content to let him come through Korea--they didn't
                                        really care so much about it--but when they saw he wanted to come further
                                        they decided it would be better to fight that war on someone else's
                                        territory, and so march the Japanese off the Penninsula.

                                        Japan decides to become insular again, and without outside pressure, they
                                        content themselves with their islands.

                                        Then Perry comes in his Black Ships and forcibly requires Japan to open
                                        its doors. Up and coming Japanese come to the realization that the world
                                        will come to them unless they learn to keep the world out, and they build
                                        up a Navy and Army that are able to dominate their section of the world,
                                        defeating both the Chinese and the Russians.

                                        Japan then goes for Korea again because of the resources required to keep
                                        up with the industrialization. Also, no doubt, they are taking lessons
                                        from the British as to how the Brits became a great world-spanning Empire
                                        from just a small island nation.

                                        Japan actually keeps Korea this time until the end of WWWII.

                                        So, all in all, Korea wasn't a bad move for Japan at any point in its
                                        history, as I can see it.

                                        -Ii
                                      • James Eckman
                                        ... It s cool, it s interesting. ... Is the sea blue? That s what we in the west say even though it s more likely to be a yucky kind of turquoise most of the
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Jan 3, 2005
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          sca-jml@yahoogroups.com wrote:

                                          >From: "Ellen Davis" <ellen.m.davis@...>
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >The pottery in question is called Valdivia ware and does bear a marked
                                          >similarity to certain Jomon styles from both Honshu and Kyushu.
                                          >
                                          >(Not to toot my own sho, but I wrote a paper on this whole shebang as part
                                          >of an American Prehistory class, and I'm posting it to the Files section
                                          >under "Valdivia.doc". It's a bit technical in places but I thought it might
                                          >be helpful and/or interesting.)
                                          >
                                          >
                                          It's cool, it's interesting.

                                          >From: Solveig <nostrand@...>
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >No there are not. This is patently false. The canonical and well worn
                                          >example is aoi.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          Is the sea blue? That's what we in the west say even though it's more
                                          likely to be a yucky kind of turquoise most of the time. Color words are
                                          not very precise in English, or even between people with the same
                                          background and language.

                                          >I am not a subscriber to nihonron either, but the notion that Japanese and
                                          >English are equivalent is laughable.
                                          >
                                          Certainly much closer than Navajo or some of the really far out tribal
                                          languages. I guess all those translator's out there are just ripping us
                                          off ;)

                                          >There are things which are easier and
                                          >more natural to express in each of these languages. Even if something can
                                          >be easily expressed in both languages does not mean that you will see a
                                          >1:1 word mapping.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          For more complex concepts that's true. Actually for pre-1900's Japan I
                                          would say love is tough word to translate in either direction.

                                          > From: "mattfmcti" <mattfmcti@...>
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >I'm getting an image of a man beating his head against a brick
                                          >wall...how many ultimately futile expeditions did the Japanese send to
                                          >Korea through the ages? One would guess that, with easier pickings
                                          >elsewhere, they might have learned to just forget Korea.
                                          >
                                          Why are the Turks and Greeks still fighting, why did the French and
                                          English always fight each other? It's all part of being neighborly ;)

                                          Jim Eckman
                                        • Solveig
                                          Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solvieg! Love is indeed another interesting word. Ancient Greek had four words for love . Modern Japanese has more than one.
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Jan 4, 2005
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Noble Cousins!

                                            Greetings from Solvieg! "Love" is indeed another interesting word. Ancient
                                            Greek had four words for "love". Modern Japanese has more than one. Arguably
                                            English has at least two common words: "love" and "lust".
                                            --

                                            Your Humble Servant
                                            Solveig Throndardottir
                                            Amateur Scholar

                                            +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                            | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                            | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                            | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                                            +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                            | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to the |
                                            | trash by my email filters. |
                                            +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                          • mattfmcti
                                            ... nibbling ... China with ... IIRC, Japan was also technologically superior to China, having spent the last 40-50 years modernizing the country at warp
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Jan 4, 2005
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              > Noble Cousin!
                                              >
                                              > Greetings from Solveig! The Japanese were doing a very good job of
                                              nibbling
                                              > away at China until the U.S. intervened in the late 1930's early 1940's.
                                              > Even in August of 1945, the Japanese had an operational army in
                                              China with
                                              > more a million troops. If memory serves correctly of course.

                                              IIRC, Japan was also technologically superior to China, having spent
                                              the last 40-50 years modernizing the country at warp speed. I believe
                                              the Chinese resistance during WWII was using U.S.-supplied arms and
                                              supplies, because they either didn't have the facilities to make there
                                              own or the Japanese had bombed/taken them.

                                              Besides, don't you know....you NEVER get involved in a land war with
                                              Asia. ^_^

                                              Fujiwara
                                            • David Williams
                                              ... And never challenge a Sicillian when death is on the line!!!! Cristen __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Jan 4, 2005
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                >
                                                > Besides, don't you know....you NEVER get involved in
                                                > a land war with
                                                > Asia. ^_^
                                                >
                                                > Fujiwara
                                                >
                                                >
                                                And never challenge a Sicillian when death is on the
                                                line!!!!

                                                Cristen



                                                __________________________________
                                                Do you Yahoo!?
                                                Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
                                                http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                                              • Solveig
                                                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... As the author of Empire of the Sun put it, the Japanese make machines and the Chinese break machines . -- Your
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Jan 4, 2005
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Noble Cousin!

                                                  Greetings from Solveig!

                                                  >IIRC, Japan was also technologically superior to China,

                                                  As the author of "Empire of the Sun" put it, "the Japanese make machines
                                                  and the Chinese break machines".
                                                  --

                                                  Your Humble Servant
                                                  Solveig Throndardottir
                                                  Amateur Scholar

                                                  +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                                  | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                                  | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                                  | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                                                  +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                                  | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to the |
                                                  | trash by my email filters. |
                                                  +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                                • Park McKellop
                                                  Never bet with a Sicilian. It is inconceivable. Alcyoneus ... And never challenge a Sicillian when death is on the line!!!! Cristen
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Jan 4, 2005
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Never bet with a Sicilian.

                                                    It is inconceivable.

                                                    Alcyoneus

                                                    David Williams <gary7williams@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Besides, don't you know....you NEVER get involved in
                                                    > a land war with
                                                    > Asia. ^_^
                                                    >
                                                    > Fujiwara
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    And never challenge a Sicillian when death is on the
                                                    line!!!!

                                                    Cristen



                                                    __________________________________
                                                    Do you Yahoo!?
                                                    Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
                                                    http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


                                                    UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



                                                    ---------------------------------
                                                    Yahoo! Groups Links

                                                    To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/

                                                    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                    sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                                                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                                                    ---------------------------------
                                                    Do you Yahoo!?
                                                    Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more.

                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • Park McKellop
                                                    It is still today. I wouldn t hesitate to buy a Japanese tool or machine. I would buy a Chinese tool or machine only if I could afford to think of it as a
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Jan 5, 2005
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      It is still today. I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Japanese tool or machine. I would buy a Chinese tool or machine only if I could afford to think of it as a disposable tool, or could afford nothing better.

                                                      Alcyoneus


                                                      >IIRC, Japan was also technologically superior to China,

                                                      As the author of "Empire of the Sun" put it, "the Japanese make machines
                                                      and the Chinese break machines".
                                                      --

                                                      Your Humble Servant
                                                      Solveig Throndardottir
                                                      Amateur Scholar

                                                      +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                                      | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                                      | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                                      | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                                                      +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                                      | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to the |
                                                      | trash by my email filters. |
                                                      +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+


                                                      UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



                                                      ---------------------------------
                                                      Yahoo! Groups Links

                                                      To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/

                                                      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                      sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                                                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


                                                      __________________________________________________
                                                      Do You Yahoo!?
                                                      Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                                      http://mail.yahoo.com

                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.