Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: A Variety of Inquiries (garb, names, poetry)

Expand Messages
  • makiwara_no_yetsuko
    ... I ll defer to our name experts regarding #1. As I have a registered European name for my primary persona, I m content to go by a nickname for this one,
    Message 1 of 20 , Sep 30, 2004
      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Booknerd9@y... wrote:
      I'll defer to our name experts regarding #1. As I have a registered
      European name for my primary persona, I'm content to go by a nickname
      for this one, expecially since it makes the kyudoka twitch.

      > 2. The Japanese Costume Museum has a picture I'm interested filed
      under the Heian
      > list, the "young girl in everyday wear called "kazami"". I am under
      the impression that
      > court ladies wore the red hakama[2], but if a girl was not a court
      lady (or just not at
      > court), would she have worn another color of hakama? This girl
      appears to be wearing
      > a nice brown pair. Can anyone elaborate on this? Thanks.
      > Link: http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/wayou/2.htm

      Hmm, the explanation key doesn't help much. It cites an artwork on a
      sutra fan - I'll have to see if any of the images I've found in my
      hunt for information on fan papers looks like this girl. Anybody else
      have any ideas? I wonder if it's worth trying to write to the museum
      for clarification?

      As for the ginger ale, whatever you normally launder in should be
      fine. It sounds like it didn't stain, so it's just a matter of
      getting rid of sticky bits.

      > 3. And a comment. Lady Makawara- wonderful site! I loved your
      poetry!

      You honor me. I am indebted to my roommate for helping with some of
      the photos. He's got a pretty good eye for an amateur photographer.

      > Especially the PC vs. Mac tanka.
      One of my best friends is a devotee of the One True Faith as well.
      During a recent visit which involved a pilgrimage to the Apple store
      in San Francisco, I recall commenting that the signage gave a whole
      new meaning to the phrase "grail shaped beacon." ;->

      Makiwara
    • Jennifer Kobayashi
      Greetings fellow Carolingian! ... I agree that it looks brown in this picture. Now I don t read japanese so I can only work from english sources, but my
      Message 2 of 20 , Sep 30, 2004
        Greetings fellow Carolingian!

        --- Booknerd9@... wrote:

        > Ohaiyo Gozaimasu!
        >

        > 2. The Japanese Costume Museum has a picture I'm
        > interested filed under the Heian
        > list, the "young girl in everyday wear called
        > "kazami"". I am under the impression that
        > court ladies wore the red hakama[2], but if a girl
        > was not a court lady (or just not at
        > court), would she have worn another color of hakama?
        > This girl appears to be wearing
        > a nice brown pair. Can anyone elaborate on this?
        > Thanks.
        > Link:
        > http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/wayou/2.htm

        I agree that it looks brown in this picture. Now I
        don't read japanese so I can only work from english
        sources, but my understanding is that girls wear dark
        reddish hakama.

        From p228 Liza Dalby's _Kimono:_Fashioning_Culture (an
        excellent book BTW) "Women wore them [hakama] in
        bright scarlet pink while unmarried girls wore dark
        purplish red - a reversal of modern Japanese notions
        of age-appropriate colors."

        For examples see:
        http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/wayou/12.htm
        http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/wayou/13.htm

        My guess is that
        http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/wayou/2.htm

        may actually be a purplish red, but looks brown in
        this picture. I have read of descriptions of other
        colors of hakama for women, but in English
        translations which cannot be entirely trusted.

        Someone else may have more information and/or
        expertise.?

        Anyway, you would certainly be safe with a dark
        purplish or maroon red.

        Good luck. Hope to see you at Falling Leaves.

        Ki no Izumi called Kobayashi
        aka Gwendolyn of Middlemarch or Jennifer Kobayashi




        _______________________________
        Do you Yahoo!?
        Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
        http://vote.yahoo.com
      • ellen.m.davis@att.net
        ... This looks like a pretty good list, and a lot of the names ARE period (I don t have Lady Solveig s book in front of me to compare, though.) ... Sugawara is
        Message 3 of 20 , Sep 30, 2004
          -------------- Original message from Booknerd9@...: --------------

          > Ohaiyo Gozaimasu!
          >
          > Wow, I haven't checked back here in a while; I've been settling back into
          > College Life
          > and only now am I starting to re-establish my old forum routines. Anyway, I have
          > a
          > few questions and comments that have been rattling around in my brain for a
          > while
          > and I hope you all can help.
          >
          > 1. I stumbled along this site a while back which details Japanese names, but
          > focuses
          > on "old" names. Link: http://www.juliancollege.com/names.html
          >

          This looks like a pretty good list, and a lot of the names ARE period (I don't have Lady Solveig's book in front of me to compare, though.)


          > 1a. Even though I am a girl, I think I have an idea for a surname. I've found
          > the tale of
          > Sugawara no Michizane to be incredibly interesting but due to his fame, could
          > one
          > use Sugawara as a surname in the SCA? Also, according to my research, he
          > technically, he comes from the Hijitaka clan which changed it's name to
          > Sugawara, so
          > if using this family branch's name is permitted, would Hijitaka be the name a
          > girl
          > would use?

          Sugawara is definitely doable (we already have a Sugawara-dono in the East Kingdom, so having another distant cousin coming out of the woodwork would be fine!)

          I don't have any personal knowledge of the Hijitaka clan and its relationship to the Sugawaras (I though Sugawara was itself an uji name), but we have "Sugawara Michizane and the Early Heian Court" at home so I'll check. As a woman I believe you would tend to use the uji name in preference to a family name, so you could be Hijitaka Nezumi (to steal your nickname as an example!) Sugawara no Hijitaka Nezumi (<family name> *no* <uji name> <personal name>) is also a proper construction, I believe.

          (I love female names because there are so many options by which a woman may be addressed!)

          > 2. The Japanese Costume Museum has a picture I'm interested filed under the
          > Heian
          > list, the "young girl in everyday wear called "kazami"". I am under the
          > impression that
          > court ladies wore the red hakama[2], but if a girl was not a court lady (or just
          > not at
          > court), would she have worn another color of hakama? This girl appears to be
          > wearing
          > a nice brown pair. Can anyone elaborate on this? Thanks.
          > Link: http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/wayou/2.htm

          Girls who had not yet "come of age" (I believe the official ceremony was called "mofuku", "putting on the train") wore darker hakama as you see in the picture. I believe they were dyed with suou (sappanwood/"maroon") but I'm not sure. The regular red hakama/nagabakama were dyed with madder, which I also heard was thought to protect against "female complaints".

          > [1]Heh, worse come to worse, I end up nicknamed "Nezumi" due to my affection for
          > rats (I had one as a pet and was quite attached to the little thing).

          Awwww! I like rats although I've never had any. I should start signing my posts as "Tobi-nezumi no kimi" (Flying Rat Lady-- don't ask).

          > [2] And any advice for getting a ginger ale out of a pair? (; I can't *see* any
          > ginger ale,
          > there's no stain, but there was a ginger ale incident that did hit me... hmn.

          Any reason they can't just be tossed in the washer/dryer? Many silks are fine with that (I wash mine and they come out fine.)

          Regards,

          Aine (who needs to get off her patootie and choose a Japanese name, but there are so many options!)
        • Jennifer Kobayashi
          ... Yes or hand wash. Though if they are red, you don t want to wash them with anything else until you are sure they won t run ;-). ... Ki no Izumi called
          Message 4 of 20 , Sep 30, 2004
            --- ellen.m.davis@... wrote:

            >
            >
            > -------------- Original message from
            > Booknerd9@...: --------------
            >

            > > [2] And any advice for getting a ginger ale out of
            > a pair? (; I can't *see* any
            > > ginger ale,
            > > there's no stain, but there was a ginger ale
            > incident that did hit me... hmn.
            >
            > Any reason they can't just be tossed in the
            > washer/dryer? Many silks are fine with that (I wash
            > mine and they come out fine.)

            Yes or hand wash. Though if they are red, you don't
            want to wash them with anything else until you are
            sure they won't run ;-).
            >
            Ki no Izumi called Kobayashi

            =====
            - Jennifer



            __________________________________
            Do you Yahoo!?
            Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
            http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
          • Booknerd9@yahoo.com
            ... Lady Solveig s book in front of me to compare, though.) ... Ah, alright. I don t see Ruri on the list, unfortunately, and I ve become slightly fond of that
            Message 5 of 20 , Sep 30, 2004
              > This looks like a pretty good list, and a lot of the names ARE period (I don't have
              Lady Solveig's book in front of me to compare, though.)
              >
              Ah, alright. I don't see Ruri on the list, unfortunately, and I've become slightly fond of
              that name, Ayame is nice too and Kikueko. I like flower names, though I don't see too
              many on the list and I don't think Nadeshiko is period...

              > Sugawara is definitely doable (we already have a Sugawara-dono in the East
              Kingdom, so having another distant cousin coming out of the woodwork would be
              fine!)
              >
              Well, if he doesn't mind a distant cousin running around (:

              > Girls who had not yet "come of age" (I believe the official ceremony was called
              "mofuku", "putting on the train") wore darker hakama as you see in the picture. I
              believe they were dyed with suou (sappanwood/"maroon") but I'm not sure. The
              regular red hakama/nagabakama were dyed with madder, which I also heard was
              thought to protect against "female complaints".
              >
              Ok, so it's an age thing. I was just wondering what women wore when they were not
              in the service of the court. Maybe I should ignore it because it's historical fiction but
              in Dalby's "Tale of Murasaki", our dear Fuji writes about how she needs a red hakama
              when she goes to be in the entourage of the Empress, which makes me wonder what
              she was wearing otherwise.

              > Awwww! I like rats although I've never had any. I should start signing my posts as
              "Tobi-nezumi no kimi" (Flying Rat Lady-- don't ask).
              >
              My nickname isn't Nezumi; I just have this feeling that if I let fellow Japanese persona
              SCAdians come up with something, my lapses into rat tales and my screen names
              elsewhere would invite the appelation, even though it's kind of a negatively viewed
              animal no matter where you go, though with a few, but not apparently redeemable,
              exceptions.
              Actually, I found some documentation, or at least, a slightly secondary source that
              mentions that in Tokugawa Japan, breeding fancy mice was a hobby (and has a
              picture too.) There was apparently a manual too about how to breed mice and a quick
              web search shows there was a Buddhist monk who had two pet fancy mice. Not
              exactly rats, but rats are really just big mice with better personalities (;

              > Any reason they can't just be tossed in the washer/dryer? Many silks are fine with
              that (I wash mine and they come out fine.)
              >
              I sewed my pair by hand and mom says that if I throw them in the washer, they'd
              come unsewn. Heh, I washed my kosode yesterday and pretty much soaked my entire
              dormroom... poor poor roommates...

              Thanks all!
            • Anthony J. Bryant
              ... I remember the situation well. :) ... I d be really cautious about this. The list is riddled with mistakes beginning with Akamatsu ( red mountain ) (it s
              Message 6 of 20 , Sep 30, 2004
                Booknerd9@... wrote:

                > Ohaiyo Gozaimasu!
                >
                > Wow, I haven't checked back here in a while; I've been settling back into College Life
                > and only now am I starting to re-establish my old forum routines. Anyway, I have a
                > few questions and comments that have been rattling around in my brain for a while
                > and I hope you all can help.

                I remember the situation well. :)

                > 1. I stumbled along this site a while back which details Japanese names, but focuses
                > on "old" names. However, I'm not quite sure of how period some of the names are, as
                > there is quite a nice bounty of female names, which I am in need of[1]. I'm attending
                > Falling Leaves next week (hello to any Carolingians out there) and I'd like an idea of
                > something to use or contemplate or discuss with my herald. I have a few that I like,
                > and if no one minds, I can list them in a follow up post. They are from this site I
                > found, so they may or may not be period.
                > Link: http://www.juliancollege.com/names.html

                I'd be really cautious about this. The list is riddled with mistakes beginning
                with "Akamatsu ('red mountain')" (it's Red Pine) down through "-wara ('swamp,'
                'marsh,' some translators render this as the more elegant 'arbor')" (it's a
                FIELD; "swamp" is "numa" or "numachi".) It even has the amusing mistake of
                "Kawakami ('god river')" for a name that is a locative -- kawakami means "above
                the river").

                Also consider: "chujo ('captain,' a very common and generic military-sounding
                title for a male leader, " -- actually, no. It's an effete court title for a
                captain of the palace guard.

                A favorite: "Ochikubo (lit. 'basement room' or 'room under the stairs' -- people
                were often known by the name of the place they lived, rather than by their given
                names. Therefore 'Captain Ochikubo' was the Captain that lived in the room under
                the stairs, as opposed to say, while 'Captain Ichijo' who was the captain that
                lived on Ichijo -- 'first avenue')" -- Although are no Harry Potters in Japan,
                this is the nickname of the heroine in the "Ochikubo Monogatari" -- a fictional
                tale in the Cinderella mode, and comparing the idea of the heroine living in a
                storage hole in the floor (an Ochikubo) and the European heroine's living
                arrangements on the floor in front of the hearth (CINDERella), the comparison is
                obvious. Why anyone would think this would be a suitable name for anyone is
                beyond me.

                I don't know if the people putting it together even speak Japanese. They may
                know enough Japanese to be dangerous (it seems they make a few obvious homophone
                errors -- witness the above kawakami, mistaking "kami (up)" for "kami (god)",
                and their rendition of "Akihito" as "autumn man" when in fact the kanji are
                "aki" (different kanji; either "bright" or "clear") and "hito" (an singular
                reading for the character for "benevolence"), mistaking the basic J-101 words
                for the correct ones.

                I wouldn't trust it, unless you (1) speak enough Japanese to catch the mistakes,
                and (2) had better sources to cross-reference anything it says.


                > 1a. Even though I am a girl, I think I have an idea for a surname. I've found the tale of
                > Sugawara no Michizane to be incredibly interesting but due to his fame, could one
                > use Sugawara as a surname in the SCA? Also, according to my research, he
                > technically, he comes from the Hijitaka clan which changed it's name to Sugawara, so
                > if using this family branch's name is permitted, would Hijitaka be the name a girl
                > would use?

                I love Sugawara. Great name, great family.

                > 2. The Japanese Costume Museum has a picture I'm interested filed under the Heian
                > list, the "young girl in everyday wear called "kazami"". I am under the impression that
                > court ladies wore the red hakama[2], but if a girl was not a court lady (or just not at
                > court), would she have worn another color of hakama? This girl appears to be wearing
                > a nice brown pair. Can anyone elaborate on this? Thanks.
                > Link: http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/wayou/2.htm

                Minor problem: Unless you're under 13 or so, you probably wouldn't be wearing
                that. That's kids' clothing.


                Effingham

                --

                Anthony J. Bryant
                Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

                Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
                http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

                Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
                http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder
              • makiwara_no_yetsuko
                ... wrote: Although are no Harry Potters in Japan, ... a fictional ... living in a ... living ... comparison is ... anyone is ... Does this mean we have a
                Message 7 of 20 , Sep 30, 2004
                  --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@i...>
                  wrote:
                  Although are no Harry Potters in Japan,
                  > this is the nickname of the heroine in the "Ochikubo Monogatari" --
                  a fictional
                  > tale in the Cinderella mode, and comparing the idea of the heroine
                  living in a
                  > storage hole in the floor (an Ochikubo) and the European heroine's
                  living
                  > arrangements on the floor in front of the hearth (CINDERella), the
                  comparison is
                  > obvious. Why anyone would think this would be a suitable name for
                  anyone is
                  > beyond me.

                  Does this mean we have a possible replacement for "Kitsune"? ;-> You
                  know SOMEBODY's going to think it's cool. Heck, look what I picked!

                  Makiwara
                • Anthony J. Bryant
                  ... Yes, but you wear it well. :) Effingham -- Anthony J. Bryant Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com Effingham s Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
                  Message 8 of 20 , Sep 30, 2004
                    makiwara_no_yetsuko wrote:

                    > Does this mean we have a possible replacement for "Kitsune"? ;-> You
                    > know SOMEBODY's going to think it's cool. Heck, look what I picked!

                    Yes, but you wear it well. :)

                    Effingham

                    --

                    Anthony J. Bryant
                    Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

                    Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
                    http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

                    Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
                    http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder
                  • Booknerd9@yahoo.com
                    ... Ah, well, back to the drawing board. Well, Ruri is probably legit, right? ... Ah, thanks. The mannequin has decieved me. But I was mostly wondering what
                    Message 9 of 20 , Sep 30, 2004
                      >
                      > I'd be really cautious about this. The list is riddled with mistake.....
                      > I wouldn't trust it, unless you (1) speak enough Japanese to catch the mistakes,
                      > and (2) had better sources to cross-reference anything it says.

                      Ah, well, back to the drawing board. Well, Ruri is probably legit, right?

                      > Minor problem: Unless you're under 13 or so, you probably wouldn't be wearing
                      > that. That's kids' clothing.

                      Ah, thanks. The mannequin has decieved me. But I was mostly wondering what one
                      would be wearing if not at court or if the red hakama was kinda like the Guess? jeans
                      of the female Heian nobility and wore them regardless of occasion or location.
                      And yes, that is a terrible analogy. I should be punished. (;

                      Thanks again.
                      E
                    • Anthony J. Bryant
                      ... Actually, it sounds rather modern to me, I m afraid... ... There are a couple of giveaways on the mannequin, but you have to be tuned to that sort of
                      Message 10 of 20 , Sep 30, 2004
                        Booknerd9@... wrote:

                        >>I'd be really cautious about this. The list is riddled with mistake.....
                        >>I wouldn't trust it, unless you (1) speak enough Japanese to catch the mistakes,
                        >>and (2) had better sources to cross-reference anything it says.
                        >
                        >
                        > Ah, well, back to the drawing board. Well, Ruri is probably legit, right?

                        Actually, it sounds rather modern to me, I'm afraid...

                        >>Minor problem: Unless you're under 13 or so, you probably wouldn't be wearing
                        >>that. That's kids' clothing.
                        >
                        >
                        > Ah, thanks. The mannequin has decieved me.

                        There are a couple of giveaways on the mannequin, but you have to be tuned to
                        that sort of thing. For one, the hair isn't dressed as an adult's, nor as long.
                        For another, the outfit, based on the cut/garment of a hitatare, is HUGE on the
                        lil' lady. ;)

                        > But I was mostly wondering what one
                        > would be wearing if not at court or if the red hakama was kinda like the Guess? jeans
                        > of the female Heian nobility and wore them regardless of occasion or location.
                        > And yes, that is a terrible analogy. I should be punished. (;

                        <dirty old effingvoice>Sure, little missy, I can do that...</dirty old effingvoice>

                        > Thanks again.

                        Any time!

                        Effingham
                        --

                        Anthony J. Bryant
                        Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

                        Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
                        http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

                        Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
                        http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder
                      • Rae Lahman
                        They shouldn t come apart just by being washed, unless you re really, really bad at handsewing. I handsew most of my garb, and I always wash it in the machine.
                        Message 11 of 20 , Oct 1, 2004
                          They shouldn't come apart just by being washed, unless you're really, really bad at handsewing. I handsew most of my garb, and I always wash it in the machine. I haven't had to put too much of it back together yet! :)

                          Tsukiko

                          > Any reason they can't just be tossed in the washer/dryer? Many silks are fine with
                          that (I wash mine and they come out fine.)
                          >
                          I sewed my pair by hand and mom says that if I throw them in the washer, they'd
                          come unsewn. Heh, I washed my kosode yesterday and pretty much soaked my entire
                          dormroom... poor poor roommates...




                          ---------------------------------
                          Do you Yahoo!?
                          Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Booknerd9@yahoo.com
                          ... *nods* I had gotten Ruri from Dalby s book Tale of Murasaki . But there are a few others I like and would you be so kind as to look over them? - Ayame
                          Message 12 of 20 , Oct 1, 2004
                            > > Ah, well, back to the drawing board. Well, Ruri is probably legit, right?
                            >
                            > Actually, it sounds rather modern to me, I'm afraid...

                            *nods* I had gotten Ruri from Dalby's book "Tale of Murasaki". But there are a few
                            others I like and would you be so kind as to look over them?
                            - Ayame
                            -Fudeko
                            -Kikueko
                            I know the "ko" suffix is pretty modern, or at least, perceived to be over used, and
                            this paired with the fact that I'm doing Heian, makes me a bit cautious.

                            > > But I was mostly wondering what one
                            > > would be wearing if not at court or if the red hakama was kinda like the Guess?
                            jeans
                            > > of the female Heian nobility and wore them regardless of occasion or location.
                            > > And yes, that is a terrible analogy. I should be punished. (;
                            >
                            > <dirty old effingvoice>Sure, little missy, I can do that...</dirty old effingvoice>
                            >
                            Eeeep!!!!
                            Well, guess my search for what non-attendant upper class women wore will continue.
                            I mean, not all of the young women of that social class entered court service. I'm sure
                            a good portion of them did, how better to get a husband than to ascend the social
                            ladder? But the more fun things to make, the better.

                            Thanks.
                            s.
                            E
                          • daviem01
                            ... You ... Ochikubo Monogatari is a really, really cool story-- I highly recommend it. The evil relatives definitely get what s coming to them in a very
                            Message 13 of 20 , Oct 1, 2004
                              > Does this mean we have a possible replacement for "Kitsune"? ;->
                              You
                              > know SOMEBODY's going to think it's cool. Heck, look what I picked!
                              >
                              > Makiwara

                              "Ochikubo Monogatari" is a really, really cool story-- I highly
                              recommend it. The evil relatives definitely get what's coming to
                              them in a very Heian way.

                              -Aine
                            • daviem01
                              ... fellow Japanese persona ... screen names ... negatively viewed ... apparently redeemable, ... It seems that rats/mice were not always negatively viewed in
                              Message 14 of 20 , Oct 1, 2004
                                > My nickname isn't Nezumi; I just have this feeling that if I let
                                fellow Japanese persona
                                > SCAdians come up with something, my lapses into rat tales and my
                                screen names
                                > elsewhere would invite the appelation, even though it's kind of a
                                negatively viewed
                                > animal no matter where you go, though with a few, but not
                                apparently redeemable,
                                > exceptions.

                                It seems that rats/mice were not always negatively viewed in Japan,
                                at least not nearly as much as foxes and the like. For one thing,
                                there's a year in the cycle named after them; for another, because
                                they tended to hang out where the rice (read: food) was, they were
                                considered lucky and you sometimes see them as symbols of Inari, the
                                god(dess) of rice. (Foxes, which preyed on the rats/mice/small
                                animals in the fields and had a similar association.) There are some
                                really great period and post-period paintings, netsuke, etc. of rats
                                and mice, usually munching on vegetables or sheaves of grain.

                                In particular, there are at least two picture scrolls featuring
                                anthropomorphic mice as the main characters: "Nezumi no soshi" (The
                                Mouse Story) and "Yahyoe nezumi" (Yahyoe the Mouse). The latter can
                                be found online at http://dbs.humi.keio.ac.jp/naraehon/ehon/index2-
                                e.asp?ID=KL033&FRAME=False -- this particular scroll dates from the
                                Edo Period but is apparently a reproduction/retelling of a Muromachi
                                period story. It also expresses what I was saying above about rats
                                and mice in period: during the course of his adventures, Yahyoe takes
                                refuge in a shrine of Inari or Daikoku (not sure). When a lord and
                                his wife come to pray, they take Yahyoe to be a messenger of the god
                                and show him great kindness, even helping him to get back to his
                                family.

                                (The funniest part of the scroll is after Yahyoe marries the daughter
                                of a field mouse and they have lots of children and live in splendor
                                in a temple storehouse. The scroll shows the mice wearing fine
                                clothing, playing human games, and eating fine feasts-- and then you
                                see what's REALLY happening, at least if humans were to come across
                                them: a bunch of tiny little mice crawling in and around old, beat up
                                furniture and clothes in the temple storehouse, and nibbling on the
                                offerings. Heehee!)


                                > Actually, I found some documentation, or at least, a slightly
                                secondary source that
                                > mentions that in Tokugawa Japan, breeding fancy mice was a hobby
                                (and has a
                                > picture too.) There was apparently a manual too about how to breed
                                mice and a quick
                                > web search shows there was a Buddhist monk who had two pet fancy
                                mice. Not
                                > exactly rats, but rats are really just big mice with better
                                personalities (;
                                >

                                Fascinating!

                                -Aine
                              • Booknerd9@yahoo.com
                                - ... can ... Muromachi ... Ah, yes, I had stumbled along this scroll online a while back. One of the first pictures, where they re all in their finery, was
                                Message 15 of 20 , Oct 1, 2004
                                  ->
                                  > In particular, there are at least two picture scrolls featuring
                                  > anthropomorphic mice as the main characters: "Nezumi no soshi" (The
                                  > Mouse Story) and "Yahyoe nezumi" (Yahyoe the Mouse). The latter
                                  can
                                  > be found online at http://dbs.humi.keio.ac.jp/naraehon/ehon/index2-
                                  > e.asp?ID=KL033&FRAME=False -- this particular scroll dates from the
                                  > Edo Period but is apparently a reproduction/retelling of a
                                  Muromachi
                                  > period story.

                                  Ah, yes, I had stumbled along this scroll online a while back. One of
                                  the first pictures,
                                  where they're all in their finery, was the background/desktop for my
                                  computer for a
                                  bit. Cute little story, though I felt sad when poor Yahyoe got lost
                                  and his wife missed
                                  him. Yeah, yeah, the story is only two or three paragraphs but the
                                  poor widdle
                                  mwousie...
                                  Actually, I was thinking about this yesterday, pet rats could
                                  actually ride pretty
                                  comfortably in wide court sleeves, provided they don't scamper down
                                  and tumble
                                  down the robe onto the ground (and you'd probably want to wear a
                                  yellow robe just in
                                  case, lol). Mine loved to hang out in the sleeves of regular clothes,
                                  but she'd probably
                                  get lost in a huge upper robe. (;
                                  ------
                                  | <'3 |
                                  \ ___/

                                  s.E
                                • Ellen Davis
                                  ... I don t know if there s any authenticity in this, but in Fudoki by Kij Johnson, the narrator, Princess Harueme, speaks of how she used to raise mice
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Oct 1, 2004
                                    > Actually, I was thinking about this yesterday, pet rats could
                                    > actually ride pretty
                                    > comfortably in wide court sleeves, provided they don't
                                    > scamper down and tumble
                                    > down the robe onto the ground (and you'd probably want to
                                    > wear a yellow robe just in
                                    > case, lol). Mine loved to hang out in the sleeves of regular
                                    > clothes, but she'd probably
                                    > get lost in a huge upper robe. (;

                                    I don't know if there's any authenticity in this, but in "Fudoki" by Kij
                                    Johnson, the narrator, Princess Harueme, speaks of how she used to raise
                                    mice which would nestle in her sleeves (in her young, wild and crazy days,
                                    anyway). Fantastic book.

                                    -Aine
                                  • Solveig
                                    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! -ko is a very very Heian name suffix which was REVIVED during the Meiji period. -- Your Humble Servant Solveig
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Oct 12, 2004
                                      Noble Cousin!

                                      Greetings from Solveig! -ko is a very very Heian name suffix which was
                                      REVIVED during the Meiji period.
                                      --

                                      Your Humble Servant
                                      Solveig Throndardottir
                                      Amateur Scholar

                                      +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                      | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                      | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                      | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                                      +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                      | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to the |
                                      | trash by my email filters. |
                                      +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                    • Solveig
                                      Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! Mice are fairly auspicious and are a zodiac character. Foxes are not generally auspicious and are not a zodiac
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Oct 12, 2004
                                        Noble Cousins!

                                        Greetings from Solveig! Mice are fairly auspicious and are a zodiac character.
                                        Foxes are not generally auspicious and are not a zodiac character. Mice may
                                        be associated with a good rice harvest. Please, please, please, do not try
                                        to impose modern North American fantasy upon medieval Japan.
                                        --

                                        Your Humble Servant
                                        Solveig Throndardottir
                                        Amateur Scholar

                                        +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                        | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                        | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                                        +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                        | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to the |
                                        | trash by my email filters. |
                                        +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                      • Anthony J. Bryant
                                        ... Dontcha love Heian comeuppance? :) Effingham -- Anthony J. Bryant Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com Effingham s Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Oct 28, 2004
                                          daviem01 wrote:


                                          > "Ochikubo Monogatari" is a really, really cool story-- I highly
                                          > recommend it. The evil relatives definitely get what's coming to
                                          > them in a very Heian way.

                                          Dontcha love Heian comeuppance? :)

                                          Effingham

                                          --

                                          Anthony J. Bryant
                                          Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

                                          Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
                                          http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

                                          Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
                                          http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder
                                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.