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A Variety of Inquiries (garb, names, poetry)

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  • Booknerd9@yahoo.com
    Ohaiyo Gozaimasu! Wow, I haven t checked back here in a while; I ve been settling back into College Life and only now am I starting to re-establish my old
    Message 1 of 20 , Sep 30, 2004
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      Ohaiyo Gozaimasu!

      Wow, I haven't checked back here in a while; I've been settling back into College Life
      and only now am I starting to re-establish my old forum routines. Anyway, I have a
      few questions and comments that have been rattling around in my brain for a while
      and I hope you all can help.

      1. I stumbled along this site a while back which details Japanese names, but focuses
      on "old" names. However, I'm not quite sure of how period some of the names are, as
      there is quite a nice bounty of female names, which I am in need of[1]. I'm attending
      Falling Leaves next week (hello to any Carolingians out there) and I'd like an idea of
      something to use or contemplate or discuss with my herald. I have a few that I like,
      and if no one minds, I can list them in a follow up post. They are from this site I
      found, so they may or may not be period.
      Link: http://www.juliancollege.com/names.html

      1a. Even though I am a girl, I think I have an idea for a surname. I've found the tale of
      Sugawara no Michizane to be incredibly interesting but due to his fame, could one
      use Sugawara as a surname in the SCA? Also, according to my research, he
      technically, he comes from the Hijitaka clan which changed it's name to Sugawara, so
      if using this family branch's name is permitted, would Hijitaka be the name a girl
      would use?

      2. The Japanese Costume Museum has a picture I'm interested filed under the Heian
      list, the "young girl in everyday wear called "kazami"". I am under the impression that
      court ladies wore the red hakama[2], but if a girl was not a court lady (or just not at
      court), would she have worn another color of hakama? This girl appears to be wearing
      a nice brown pair. Can anyone elaborate on this? Thanks.
      Link: http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/wayou/2.htm

      3. And a comment. Lady Makawara- wonderful site! I loved your poetry! Especially the
      PC vs. Mac tanka. I'm a Mac user myself and, well, I think Macs have one up on the
      PC; Macs are so aesthetically pleasing in their simplicity. (;
      The haiku vs. waka one was very good as well. Actually, it reminds me of when I
      ended up in a forum debate where all our posts were in poem format due to the
      debate being about a fellow who wrote a satire of role playing games in haiku. (I can
      link to that if you all wish.)

      Ah, sorry so long, but thank you in advance. Have a pleasant weekend.

      s.
      E.


      [1]Heh, worse come to worse, I end up nicknamed "Nezumi" due to my affection for
      rats (I had one as a pet and was quite attached to the little thing).
      [2] And any advice for getting a ginger ale out of a pair? (; I can't *see* any ginger ale,
      there's no stain, but there was a ginger ale incident that did hit me... hmn.
    • makiwara_no_yetsuko
      ... I ll defer to our name experts regarding #1. As I have a registered European name for my primary persona, I m content to go by a nickname for this one,
      Message 2 of 20 , Sep 30, 2004
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        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Booknerd9@y... wrote:
        I'll defer to our name experts regarding #1. As I have a registered
        European name for my primary persona, I'm content to go by a nickname
        for this one, expecially since it makes the kyudoka twitch.

        > 2. The Japanese Costume Museum has a picture I'm interested filed
        under the Heian
        > list, the "young girl in everyday wear called "kazami"". I am under
        the impression that
        > court ladies wore the red hakama[2], but if a girl was not a court
        lady (or just not at
        > court), would she have worn another color of hakama? This girl
        appears to be wearing
        > a nice brown pair. Can anyone elaborate on this? Thanks.
        > Link: http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/wayou/2.htm

        Hmm, the explanation key doesn't help much. It cites an artwork on a
        sutra fan - I'll have to see if any of the images I've found in my
        hunt for information on fan papers looks like this girl. Anybody else
        have any ideas? I wonder if it's worth trying to write to the museum
        for clarification?

        As for the ginger ale, whatever you normally launder in should be
        fine. It sounds like it didn't stain, so it's just a matter of
        getting rid of sticky bits.

        > 3. And a comment. Lady Makawara- wonderful site! I loved your
        poetry!

        You honor me. I am indebted to my roommate for helping with some of
        the photos. He's got a pretty good eye for an amateur photographer.

        > Especially the PC vs. Mac tanka.
        One of my best friends is a devotee of the One True Faith as well.
        During a recent visit which involved a pilgrimage to the Apple store
        in San Francisco, I recall commenting that the signage gave a whole
        new meaning to the phrase "grail shaped beacon." ;->

        Makiwara
      • Jennifer Kobayashi
        Greetings fellow Carolingian! ... I agree that it looks brown in this picture. Now I don t read japanese so I can only work from english sources, but my
        Message 3 of 20 , Sep 30, 2004
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          Greetings fellow Carolingian!

          --- Booknerd9@... wrote:

          > Ohaiyo Gozaimasu!
          >

          > 2. The Japanese Costume Museum has a picture I'm
          > interested filed under the Heian
          > list, the "young girl in everyday wear called
          > "kazami"". I am under the impression that
          > court ladies wore the red hakama[2], but if a girl
          > was not a court lady (or just not at
          > court), would she have worn another color of hakama?
          > This girl appears to be wearing
          > a nice brown pair. Can anyone elaborate on this?
          > Thanks.
          > Link:
          > http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/wayou/2.htm

          I agree that it looks brown in this picture. Now I
          don't read japanese so I can only work from english
          sources, but my understanding is that girls wear dark
          reddish hakama.

          From p228 Liza Dalby's _Kimono:_Fashioning_Culture (an
          excellent book BTW) "Women wore them [hakama] in
          bright scarlet pink while unmarried girls wore dark
          purplish red - a reversal of modern Japanese notions
          of age-appropriate colors."

          For examples see:
          http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/wayou/12.htm
          http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/wayou/13.htm

          My guess is that
          http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/wayou/2.htm

          may actually be a purplish red, but looks brown in
          this picture. I have read of descriptions of other
          colors of hakama for women, but in English
          translations which cannot be entirely trusted.

          Someone else may have more information and/or
          expertise.?

          Anyway, you would certainly be safe with a dark
          purplish or maroon red.

          Good luck. Hope to see you at Falling Leaves.

          Ki no Izumi called Kobayashi
          aka Gwendolyn of Middlemarch or Jennifer Kobayashi




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        • ellen.m.davis@att.net
          ... This looks like a pretty good list, and a lot of the names ARE period (I don t have Lady Solveig s book in front of me to compare, though.) ... Sugawara is
          Message 4 of 20 , Sep 30, 2004
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            -------------- Original message from Booknerd9@...: --------------

            > Ohaiyo Gozaimasu!
            >
            > Wow, I haven't checked back here in a while; I've been settling back into
            > College Life
            > and only now am I starting to re-establish my old forum routines. Anyway, I have
            > a
            > few questions and comments that have been rattling around in my brain for a
            > while
            > and I hope you all can help.
            >
            > 1. I stumbled along this site a while back which details Japanese names, but
            > focuses
            > on "old" names. Link: http://www.juliancollege.com/names.html
            >

            This looks like a pretty good list, and a lot of the names ARE period (I don't have Lady Solveig's book in front of me to compare, though.)


            > 1a. Even though I am a girl, I think I have an idea for a surname. I've found
            > the tale of
            > Sugawara no Michizane to be incredibly interesting but due to his fame, could
            > one
            > use Sugawara as a surname in the SCA? Also, according to my research, he
            > technically, he comes from the Hijitaka clan which changed it's name to
            > Sugawara, so
            > if using this family branch's name is permitted, would Hijitaka be the name a
            > girl
            > would use?

            Sugawara is definitely doable (we already have a Sugawara-dono in the East Kingdom, so having another distant cousin coming out of the woodwork would be fine!)

            I don't have any personal knowledge of the Hijitaka clan and its relationship to the Sugawaras (I though Sugawara was itself an uji name), but we have "Sugawara Michizane and the Early Heian Court" at home so I'll check. As a woman I believe you would tend to use the uji name in preference to a family name, so you could be Hijitaka Nezumi (to steal your nickname as an example!) Sugawara no Hijitaka Nezumi (<family name> *no* <uji name> <personal name>) is also a proper construction, I believe.

            (I love female names because there are so many options by which a woman may be addressed!)

            > 2. The Japanese Costume Museum has a picture I'm interested filed under the
            > Heian
            > list, the "young girl in everyday wear called "kazami"". I am under the
            > impression that
            > court ladies wore the red hakama[2], but if a girl was not a court lady (or just
            > not at
            > court), would she have worn another color of hakama? This girl appears to be
            > wearing
            > a nice brown pair. Can anyone elaborate on this? Thanks.
            > Link: http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/wayou/2.htm

            Girls who had not yet "come of age" (I believe the official ceremony was called "mofuku", "putting on the train") wore darker hakama as you see in the picture. I believe they were dyed with suou (sappanwood/"maroon") but I'm not sure. The regular red hakama/nagabakama were dyed with madder, which I also heard was thought to protect against "female complaints".

            > [1]Heh, worse come to worse, I end up nicknamed "Nezumi" due to my affection for
            > rats (I had one as a pet and was quite attached to the little thing).

            Awwww! I like rats although I've never had any. I should start signing my posts as "Tobi-nezumi no kimi" (Flying Rat Lady-- don't ask).

            > [2] And any advice for getting a ginger ale out of a pair? (; I can't *see* any
            > ginger ale,
            > there's no stain, but there was a ginger ale incident that did hit me... hmn.

            Any reason they can't just be tossed in the washer/dryer? Many silks are fine with that (I wash mine and they come out fine.)

            Regards,

            Aine (who needs to get off her patootie and choose a Japanese name, but there are so many options!)
          • Jennifer Kobayashi
            ... Yes or hand wash. Though if they are red, you don t want to wash them with anything else until you are sure they won t run ;-). ... Ki no Izumi called
            Message 5 of 20 , Sep 30, 2004
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              --- ellen.m.davis@... wrote:

              >
              >
              > -------------- Original message from
              > Booknerd9@...: --------------
              >

              > > [2] And any advice for getting a ginger ale out of
              > a pair? (; I can't *see* any
              > > ginger ale,
              > > there's no stain, but there was a ginger ale
              > incident that did hit me... hmn.
              >
              > Any reason they can't just be tossed in the
              > washer/dryer? Many silks are fine with that (I wash
              > mine and they come out fine.)

              Yes or hand wash. Though if they are red, you don't
              want to wash them with anything else until you are
              sure they won't run ;-).
              >
              Ki no Izumi called Kobayashi

              =====
              - Jennifer



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            • Booknerd9@yahoo.com
              ... Lady Solveig s book in front of me to compare, though.) ... Ah, alright. I don t see Ruri on the list, unfortunately, and I ve become slightly fond of that
              Message 6 of 20 , Sep 30, 2004
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                > This looks like a pretty good list, and a lot of the names ARE period (I don't have
                Lady Solveig's book in front of me to compare, though.)
                >
                Ah, alright. I don't see Ruri on the list, unfortunately, and I've become slightly fond of
                that name, Ayame is nice too and Kikueko. I like flower names, though I don't see too
                many on the list and I don't think Nadeshiko is period...

                > Sugawara is definitely doable (we already have a Sugawara-dono in the East
                Kingdom, so having another distant cousin coming out of the woodwork would be
                fine!)
                >
                Well, if he doesn't mind a distant cousin running around (:

                > Girls who had not yet "come of age" (I believe the official ceremony was called
                "mofuku", "putting on the train") wore darker hakama as you see in the picture. I
                believe they were dyed with suou (sappanwood/"maroon") but I'm not sure. The
                regular red hakama/nagabakama were dyed with madder, which I also heard was
                thought to protect against "female complaints".
                >
                Ok, so it's an age thing. I was just wondering what women wore when they were not
                in the service of the court. Maybe I should ignore it because it's historical fiction but
                in Dalby's "Tale of Murasaki", our dear Fuji writes about how she needs a red hakama
                when she goes to be in the entourage of the Empress, which makes me wonder what
                she was wearing otherwise.

                > Awwww! I like rats although I've never had any. I should start signing my posts as
                "Tobi-nezumi no kimi" (Flying Rat Lady-- don't ask).
                >
                My nickname isn't Nezumi; I just have this feeling that if I let fellow Japanese persona
                SCAdians come up with something, my lapses into rat tales and my screen names
                elsewhere would invite the appelation, even though it's kind of a negatively viewed
                animal no matter where you go, though with a few, but not apparently redeemable,
                exceptions.
                Actually, I found some documentation, or at least, a slightly secondary source that
                mentions that in Tokugawa Japan, breeding fancy mice was a hobby (and has a
                picture too.) There was apparently a manual too about how to breed mice and a quick
                web search shows there was a Buddhist monk who had two pet fancy mice. Not
                exactly rats, but rats are really just big mice with better personalities (;

                > Any reason they can't just be tossed in the washer/dryer? Many silks are fine with
                that (I wash mine and they come out fine.)
                >
                I sewed my pair by hand and mom says that if I throw them in the washer, they'd
                come unsewn. Heh, I washed my kosode yesterday and pretty much soaked my entire
                dormroom... poor poor roommates...

                Thanks all!
              • Anthony J. Bryant
                ... I remember the situation well. :) ... I d be really cautious about this. The list is riddled with mistakes beginning with Akamatsu ( red mountain ) (it s
                Message 7 of 20 , Sep 30, 2004
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                  Booknerd9@... wrote:

                  > Ohaiyo Gozaimasu!
                  >
                  > Wow, I haven't checked back here in a while; I've been settling back into College Life
                  > and only now am I starting to re-establish my old forum routines. Anyway, I have a
                  > few questions and comments that have been rattling around in my brain for a while
                  > and I hope you all can help.

                  I remember the situation well. :)

                  > 1. I stumbled along this site a while back which details Japanese names, but focuses
                  > on "old" names. However, I'm not quite sure of how period some of the names are, as
                  > there is quite a nice bounty of female names, which I am in need of[1]. I'm attending
                  > Falling Leaves next week (hello to any Carolingians out there) and I'd like an idea of
                  > something to use or contemplate or discuss with my herald. I have a few that I like,
                  > and if no one minds, I can list them in a follow up post. They are from this site I
                  > found, so they may or may not be period.
                  > Link: http://www.juliancollege.com/names.html

                  I'd be really cautious about this. The list is riddled with mistakes beginning
                  with "Akamatsu ('red mountain')" (it's Red Pine) down through "-wara ('swamp,'
                  'marsh,' some translators render this as the more elegant 'arbor')" (it's a
                  FIELD; "swamp" is "numa" or "numachi".) It even has the amusing mistake of
                  "Kawakami ('god river')" for a name that is a locative -- kawakami means "above
                  the river").

                  Also consider: "chujo ('captain,' a very common and generic military-sounding
                  title for a male leader, " -- actually, no. It's an effete court title for a
                  captain of the palace guard.

                  A favorite: "Ochikubo (lit. 'basement room' or 'room under the stairs' -- people
                  were often known by the name of the place they lived, rather than by their given
                  names. Therefore 'Captain Ochikubo' was the Captain that lived in the room under
                  the stairs, as opposed to say, while 'Captain Ichijo' who was the captain that
                  lived on Ichijo -- 'first avenue')" -- Although are no Harry Potters in Japan,
                  this is the nickname of the heroine in the "Ochikubo Monogatari" -- a fictional
                  tale in the Cinderella mode, and comparing the idea of the heroine living in a
                  storage hole in the floor (an Ochikubo) and the European heroine's living
                  arrangements on the floor in front of the hearth (CINDERella), the comparison is
                  obvious. Why anyone would think this would be a suitable name for anyone is
                  beyond me.

                  I don't know if the people putting it together even speak Japanese. They may
                  know enough Japanese to be dangerous (it seems they make a few obvious homophone
                  errors -- witness the above kawakami, mistaking "kami (up)" for "kami (god)",
                  and their rendition of "Akihito" as "autumn man" when in fact the kanji are
                  "aki" (different kanji; either "bright" or "clear") and "hito" (an singular
                  reading for the character for "benevolence"), mistaking the basic J-101 words
                  for the correct ones.

                  I wouldn't trust it, unless you (1) speak enough Japanese to catch the mistakes,
                  and (2) had better sources to cross-reference anything it says.


                  > 1a. Even though I am a girl, I think I have an idea for a surname. I've found the tale of
                  > Sugawara no Michizane to be incredibly interesting but due to his fame, could one
                  > use Sugawara as a surname in the SCA? Also, according to my research, he
                  > technically, he comes from the Hijitaka clan which changed it's name to Sugawara, so
                  > if using this family branch's name is permitted, would Hijitaka be the name a girl
                  > would use?

                  I love Sugawara. Great name, great family.

                  > 2. The Japanese Costume Museum has a picture I'm interested filed under the Heian
                  > list, the "young girl in everyday wear called "kazami"". I am under the impression that
                  > court ladies wore the red hakama[2], but if a girl was not a court lady (or just not at
                  > court), would she have worn another color of hakama? This girl appears to be wearing
                  > a nice brown pair. Can anyone elaborate on this? Thanks.
                  > Link: http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/wayou/2.htm

                  Minor problem: Unless you're under 13 or so, you probably wouldn't be wearing
                  that. That's kids' clothing.


                  Effingham

                  --

                  Anthony J. Bryant
                  Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

                  Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
                  http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

                  Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
                  http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder
                • makiwara_no_yetsuko
                  ... wrote: Although are no Harry Potters in Japan, ... a fictional ... living in a ... living ... comparison is ... anyone is ... Does this mean we have a
                  Message 8 of 20 , Sep 30, 2004
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                    --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@i...>
                    wrote:
                    Although are no Harry Potters in Japan,
                    > this is the nickname of the heroine in the "Ochikubo Monogatari" --
                    a fictional
                    > tale in the Cinderella mode, and comparing the idea of the heroine
                    living in a
                    > storage hole in the floor (an Ochikubo) and the European heroine's
                    living
                    > arrangements on the floor in front of the hearth (CINDERella), the
                    comparison is
                    > obvious. Why anyone would think this would be a suitable name for
                    anyone is
                    > beyond me.

                    Does this mean we have a possible replacement for "Kitsune"? ;-> You
                    know SOMEBODY's going to think it's cool. Heck, look what I picked!

                    Makiwara
                  • Anthony J. Bryant
                    ... Yes, but you wear it well. :) Effingham -- Anthony J. Bryant Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com Effingham s Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
                    Message 9 of 20 , Sep 30, 2004
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                      makiwara_no_yetsuko wrote:

                      > Does this mean we have a possible replacement for "Kitsune"? ;-> You
                      > know SOMEBODY's going to think it's cool. Heck, look what I picked!

                      Yes, but you wear it well. :)

                      Effingham

                      --

                      Anthony J. Bryant
                      Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

                      Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
                      http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

                      Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
                      http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder
                    • Booknerd9@yahoo.com
                      ... Ah, well, back to the drawing board. Well, Ruri is probably legit, right? ... Ah, thanks. The mannequin has decieved me. But I was mostly wondering what
                      Message 10 of 20 , Sep 30, 2004
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                        >
                        > I'd be really cautious about this. The list is riddled with mistake.....
                        > I wouldn't trust it, unless you (1) speak enough Japanese to catch the mistakes,
                        > and (2) had better sources to cross-reference anything it says.

                        Ah, well, back to the drawing board. Well, Ruri is probably legit, right?

                        > Minor problem: Unless you're under 13 or so, you probably wouldn't be wearing
                        > that. That's kids' clothing.

                        Ah, thanks. The mannequin has decieved me. But I was mostly wondering what one
                        would be wearing if not at court or if the red hakama was kinda like the Guess? jeans
                        of the female Heian nobility and wore them regardless of occasion or location.
                        And yes, that is a terrible analogy. I should be punished. (;

                        Thanks again.
                        E
                      • Anthony J. Bryant
                        ... Actually, it sounds rather modern to me, I m afraid... ... There are a couple of giveaways on the mannequin, but you have to be tuned to that sort of
                        Message 11 of 20 , Sep 30, 2004
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                          Booknerd9@... wrote:

                          >>I'd be really cautious about this. The list is riddled with mistake.....
                          >>I wouldn't trust it, unless you (1) speak enough Japanese to catch the mistakes,
                          >>and (2) had better sources to cross-reference anything it says.
                          >
                          >
                          > Ah, well, back to the drawing board. Well, Ruri is probably legit, right?

                          Actually, it sounds rather modern to me, I'm afraid...

                          >>Minor problem: Unless you're under 13 or so, you probably wouldn't be wearing
                          >>that. That's kids' clothing.
                          >
                          >
                          > Ah, thanks. The mannequin has decieved me.

                          There are a couple of giveaways on the mannequin, but you have to be tuned to
                          that sort of thing. For one, the hair isn't dressed as an adult's, nor as long.
                          For another, the outfit, based on the cut/garment of a hitatare, is HUGE on the
                          lil' lady. ;)

                          > But I was mostly wondering what one
                          > would be wearing if not at court or if the red hakama was kinda like the Guess? jeans
                          > of the female Heian nobility and wore them regardless of occasion or location.
                          > And yes, that is a terrible analogy. I should be punished. (;

                          <dirty old effingvoice>Sure, little missy, I can do that...</dirty old effingvoice>

                          > Thanks again.

                          Any time!

                          Effingham
                          --

                          Anthony J. Bryant
                          Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

                          Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
                          http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

                          Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
                          http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder
                        • Rae Lahman
                          They shouldn t come apart just by being washed, unless you re really, really bad at handsewing. I handsew most of my garb, and I always wash it in the machine.
                          Message 12 of 20 , Oct 1, 2004
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                            They shouldn't come apart just by being washed, unless you're really, really bad at handsewing. I handsew most of my garb, and I always wash it in the machine. I haven't had to put too much of it back together yet! :)

                            Tsukiko

                            > Any reason they can't just be tossed in the washer/dryer? Many silks are fine with
                            that (I wash mine and they come out fine.)
                            >
                            I sewed my pair by hand and mom says that if I throw them in the washer, they'd
                            come unsewn. Heh, I washed my kosode yesterday and pretty much soaked my entire
                            dormroom... poor poor roommates...




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                          • Booknerd9@yahoo.com
                            ... *nods* I had gotten Ruri from Dalby s book Tale of Murasaki . But there are a few others I like and would you be so kind as to look over them? - Ayame
                            Message 13 of 20 , Oct 1, 2004
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                              > > Ah, well, back to the drawing board. Well, Ruri is probably legit, right?
                              >
                              > Actually, it sounds rather modern to me, I'm afraid...

                              *nods* I had gotten Ruri from Dalby's book "Tale of Murasaki". But there are a few
                              others I like and would you be so kind as to look over them?
                              - Ayame
                              -Fudeko
                              -Kikueko
                              I know the "ko" suffix is pretty modern, or at least, perceived to be over used, and
                              this paired with the fact that I'm doing Heian, makes me a bit cautious.

                              > > But I was mostly wondering what one
                              > > would be wearing if not at court or if the red hakama was kinda like the Guess?
                              jeans
                              > > of the female Heian nobility and wore them regardless of occasion or location.
                              > > And yes, that is a terrible analogy. I should be punished. (;
                              >
                              > <dirty old effingvoice>Sure, little missy, I can do that...</dirty old effingvoice>
                              >
                              Eeeep!!!!
                              Well, guess my search for what non-attendant upper class women wore will continue.
                              I mean, not all of the young women of that social class entered court service. I'm sure
                              a good portion of them did, how better to get a husband than to ascend the social
                              ladder? But the more fun things to make, the better.

                              Thanks.
                              s.
                              E
                            • daviem01
                              ... You ... Ochikubo Monogatari is a really, really cool story-- I highly recommend it. The evil relatives definitely get what s coming to them in a very
                              Message 14 of 20 , Oct 1, 2004
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                                > Does this mean we have a possible replacement for "Kitsune"? ;->
                                You
                                > know SOMEBODY's going to think it's cool. Heck, look what I picked!
                                >
                                > Makiwara

                                "Ochikubo Monogatari" is a really, really cool story-- I highly
                                recommend it. The evil relatives definitely get what's coming to
                                them in a very Heian way.

                                -Aine
                              • daviem01
                                ... fellow Japanese persona ... screen names ... negatively viewed ... apparently redeemable, ... It seems that rats/mice were not always negatively viewed in
                                Message 15 of 20 , Oct 1, 2004
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                                  > My nickname isn't Nezumi; I just have this feeling that if I let
                                  fellow Japanese persona
                                  > SCAdians come up with something, my lapses into rat tales and my
                                  screen names
                                  > elsewhere would invite the appelation, even though it's kind of a
                                  negatively viewed
                                  > animal no matter where you go, though with a few, but not
                                  apparently redeemable,
                                  > exceptions.

                                  It seems that rats/mice were not always negatively viewed in Japan,
                                  at least not nearly as much as foxes and the like. For one thing,
                                  there's a year in the cycle named after them; for another, because
                                  they tended to hang out where the rice (read: food) was, they were
                                  considered lucky and you sometimes see them as symbols of Inari, the
                                  god(dess) of rice. (Foxes, which preyed on the rats/mice/small
                                  animals in the fields and had a similar association.) There are some
                                  really great period and post-period paintings, netsuke, etc. of rats
                                  and mice, usually munching on vegetables or sheaves of grain.

                                  In particular, there are at least two picture scrolls featuring
                                  anthropomorphic mice as the main characters: "Nezumi no soshi" (The
                                  Mouse Story) and "Yahyoe nezumi" (Yahyoe the Mouse). The latter can
                                  be found online at http://dbs.humi.keio.ac.jp/naraehon/ehon/index2-
                                  e.asp?ID=KL033&FRAME=False -- this particular scroll dates from the
                                  Edo Period but is apparently a reproduction/retelling of a Muromachi
                                  period story. It also expresses what I was saying above about rats
                                  and mice in period: during the course of his adventures, Yahyoe takes
                                  refuge in a shrine of Inari or Daikoku (not sure). When a lord and
                                  his wife come to pray, they take Yahyoe to be a messenger of the god
                                  and show him great kindness, even helping him to get back to his
                                  family.

                                  (The funniest part of the scroll is after Yahyoe marries the daughter
                                  of a field mouse and they have lots of children and live in splendor
                                  in a temple storehouse. The scroll shows the mice wearing fine
                                  clothing, playing human games, and eating fine feasts-- and then you
                                  see what's REALLY happening, at least if humans were to come across
                                  them: a bunch of tiny little mice crawling in and around old, beat up
                                  furniture and clothes in the temple storehouse, and nibbling on the
                                  offerings. Heehee!)


                                  > Actually, I found some documentation, or at least, a slightly
                                  secondary source that
                                  > mentions that in Tokugawa Japan, breeding fancy mice was a hobby
                                  (and has a
                                  > picture too.) There was apparently a manual too about how to breed
                                  mice and a quick
                                  > web search shows there was a Buddhist monk who had two pet fancy
                                  mice. Not
                                  > exactly rats, but rats are really just big mice with better
                                  personalities (;
                                  >

                                  Fascinating!

                                  -Aine
                                • Booknerd9@yahoo.com
                                  - ... can ... Muromachi ... Ah, yes, I had stumbled along this scroll online a while back. One of the first pictures, where they re all in their finery, was
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Oct 1, 2004
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                                    ->
                                    > In particular, there are at least two picture scrolls featuring
                                    > anthropomorphic mice as the main characters: "Nezumi no soshi" (The
                                    > Mouse Story) and "Yahyoe nezumi" (Yahyoe the Mouse). The latter
                                    can
                                    > be found online at http://dbs.humi.keio.ac.jp/naraehon/ehon/index2-
                                    > e.asp?ID=KL033&FRAME=False -- this particular scroll dates from the
                                    > Edo Period but is apparently a reproduction/retelling of a
                                    Muromachi
                                    > period story.

                                    Ah, yes, I had stumbled along this scroll online a while back. One of
                                    the first pictures,
                                    where they're all in their finery, was the background/desktop for my
                                    computer for a
                                    bit. Cute little story, though I felt sad when poor Yahyoe got lost
                                    and his wife missed
                                    him. Yeah, yeah, the story is only two or three paragraphs but the
                                    poor widdle
                                    mwousie...
                                    Actually, I was thinking about this yesterday, pet rats could
                                    actually ride pretty
                                    comfortably in wide court sleeves, provided they don't scamper down
                                    and tumble
                                    down the robe onto the ground (and you'd probably want to wear a
                                    yellow robe just in
                                    case, lol). Mine loved to hang out in the sleeves of regular clothes,
                                    but she'd probably
                                    get lost in a huge upper robe. (;
                                    ------
                                    | <'3 |
                                    \ ___/

                                    s.E
                                  • Ellen Davis
                                    ... I don t know if there s any authenticity in this, but in Fudoki by Kij Johnson, the narrator, Princess Harueme, speaks of how she used to raise mice
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Oct 1, 2004
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                                      > Actually, I was thinking about this yesterday, pet rats could
                                      > actually ride pretty
                                      > comfortably in wide court sleeves, provided they don't
                                      > scamper down and tumble
                                      > down the robe onto the ground (and you'd probably want to
                                      > wear a yellow robe just in
                                      > case, lol). Mine loved to hang out in the sleeves of regular
                                      > clothes, but she'd probably
                                      > get lost in a huge upper robe. (;

                                      I don't know if there's any authenticity in this, but in "Fudoki" by Kij
                                      Johnson, the narrator, Princess Harueme, speaks of how she used to raise
                                      mice which would nestle in her sleeves (in her young, wild and crazy days,
                                      anyway). Fantastic book.

                                      -Aine
                                    • Solveig
                                      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! -ko is a very very Heian name suffix which was REVIVED during the Meiji period. -- Your Humble Servant Solveig
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Oct 12, 2004
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                                        Noble Cousin!

                                        Greetings from Solveig! -ko is a very very Heian name suffix which was
                                        REVIVED during the Meiji period.
                                        --

                                        Your Humble Servant
                                        Solveig Throndardottir
                                        Amateur Scholar

                                        +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                        | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                        | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
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                                      • Solveig
                                        Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! Mice are fairly auspicious and are a zodiac character. Foxes are not generally auspicious and are not a zodiac
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Oct 12, 2004
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                                          Noble Cousins!

                                          Greetings from Solveig! Mice are fairly auspicious and are a zodiac character.
                                          Foxes are not generally auspicious and are not a zodiac character. Mice may
                                          be associated with a good rice harvest. Please, please, please, do not try
                                          to impose modern North American fantasy upon medieval Japan.
                                          --

                                          Your Humble Servant
                                          Solveig Throndardottir
                                          Amateur Scholar

                                          +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                          | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                          | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                                          +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
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                                        • Anthony J. Bryant
                                          ... Dontcha love Heian comeuppance? :) Effingham -- Anthony J. Bryant Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com Effingham s Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Oct 28, 2004
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                                            daviem01 wrote:


                                            > "Ochikubo Monogatari" is a really, really cool story-- I highly
                                            > recommend it. The evil relatives definitely get what's coming to
                                            > them in a very Heian way.

                                            Dontcha love Heian comeuppance? :)

                                            Effingham

                                            --

                                            Anthony J. Bryant
                                            Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

                                            Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
                                            http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

                                            Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
                                            http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder
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