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Embellishment of the Mo

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  • makiwara_no_yetsuko
    OK, according to what I was able to find in my books at home, mo could be decorated with embroidery (particularly for the Empress). In Japanese Costume And
    Message 1 of 20 , Aug 13, 2004
      OK, according to what I was able to find in my books at home, mo
      could be decorated with embroidery (particularly for the Empress).
      In "Japanese Costume And The Makers Of Its Elegant Tradition," Helen
      Minnich describes a lost technique called flower rubbing in which a
      print block treated with a rice paste resist would be laid under the
      silk, then rubbed with safflowers (benihana). Kind of like when you
      put a coin under a piece of paper and rub a pencil over it to get an
      impression. Kass McGann has experimented with this vegetable dye and
      was able to produce yellow, orange and pink by tinkering with the pH.
      http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/japanese/dyes.html

      Gold or silver leaf glued to the fabric with rice paste was also
      popular - Minnich mentions a passage in Murasaki's diary in which the
      poorly done silver leafing on one lady's mo is discussed. Surihaku is
      the stencil technique in which one applies rice paste through the
      stencil, then presses the metallic leaf onto the fabric. Minnich also
      describes a direct cutout and paste technique as well.

      Makiwara
    • Solveig
      Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! I have questions about this silver rubbing stuff. Just how ductile is silver? Gold is highly ductile, but I wonder how
      Message 2 of 20 , Aug 24, 2004
        Noble Cousins!

        Greetings from Solveig! I have questions about this silver rubbing stuff.
        Just how ductile is silver? Gold is highly ductile, but I wonder how easy
        it is to make silver leaf. The other problem with silver is tarnishing.
        Silver will tarnish to a sort of dull black. Gold has a lot of advantages
        and especially it is more ductile and does not tarnish. Could you remind
        me of where exactly the text about the mo appears? I would like to go take
        a look at it.
        --

        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar

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      • cschutrick
        ... As for the ductile bit, it must be possible to make silver leaf, as I have seen it for sale. QED. :) It might well take more work than gold leaf, but one
        Message 3 of 20 , Aug 25, 2004
          > Silver will tarnish to a sort of dull black. Gold has a
          > lot of advantages and especially it is more ductile and
          > does not tarnish.

          As for the ductile bit, it must be possible to make silver leaf, as
          I have seen it for sale. QED. :) It might well take more work than
          gold leaf, but one of the hallmarks of pre-modern fabrication is
          that the mere fact of using a lot of labor does not stop people
          doing anything.

          Tarnishing...well, I am not certain of the following, but it was
          told to me by someone who is usually correct about bits of trivia.
          According to him, silver only started tarnishing in about the last
          500 years. Before that, it seems, the atmosphere didn't have enough
          yuck in it to make that happen.

          Again, I am not sure this is right, and don't know enough about
          metallurgy to even know if it's plausible. But if it is right,
          Heian ladies could silver-leaf their clothes all they liked with no
          risk of the design turning black.

          --Jeannette
        • makiwara_no_yetsuko
          ... stuff. ... how easy ... We-e-e-ll, it s out there in the art stores, so there must be a way to do it. ... Minnich says it s in Murasaki s diary. (My copy
          Message 4 of 20 , Aug 25, 2004
            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig <nostrand@a...> wrote:
            > Noble Cousins!
            >
            > Greetings from Solveig! I have questions about this silver rubbing
            stuff.
            > Just how ductile is silver? Gold is highly ductile, but I wonder
            how easy
            > it is to make silver leaf.
            We-e-e-ll, it's out there in the art stores, so there must be a way
            to do it.

            > Could you remind
            > me of where exactly the text about the mo appears?
            Minnich says it's in Murasaki's diary. (My copy of that text has gone
            walkies!)

            If I turn up anything more definitive, I'll post.

            Makiwara
          • sigrune@aol.com
            Good Morning Solvieg, I am unsure about the mo you speak of, but as far as silver foils and silver threads go, silver is a soft metal, making foil of it
            Message 5 of 20 , Aug 25, 2004
              Good Morning Solvieg,

              I am unsure about the mo you speak of, but as far as silver foils and silver threads go, silver is a soft metal, making foil of it depends on the compisision of the exact alloy and keeping it properly annealed in the beating out process. (Silver work hardens very quickly)

              Foils of certain alloys will tarnish much faster than others.
              Japan has long had a tradition of realy weird alloys compaired to the western cousins. There is one (which IIRC is about 60% silver 18% copper 12% nickel 5% tin or zinc and a smidge of lead and antimony, I do not remember what it is called) this mix was used for "bright silvers" that were expected to stay bright and metal like. Strangely enough silver colored metals were generally unpopular unless used as acccents. Most metals also were more appreciated if they were allowed to develop a patina, except gold.

              A good amount of "silver" we see from Japan is actualy a nickel, zinc or tin alloy, this way they "grey" with age instead of blackening.

              -Takeda Sanjuichiro
            • makiwara_no_yetsuko
              ... gone ... Aha, I KNEW I d seen a translation somewhere online! http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/omori/court/murasaki.html is taken from Diaries of
              Message 6 of 20 , Aug 25, 2004
                > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig <nostrand@a...> wrote:
                > > Could you remind
                > > me of where exactly the text about the mo appears?


                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "makiwara_no_yetsuko"
                <makiwara_no_yetsuko@y...> wrote:

                > Minnich says it's in Murasaki's diary. (My copy of that text has
                gone
                > walkies!)

                Aha, I KNEW I'd seen a translation somewhere online!

                http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/omori/court/murasaki.html is
                taken from Diaries of Court Ladies of Old Japan. translated by Annie
                Shepley Omori and Kochi Doi, with an introduction by Amy Lowell.
                Boston and New York: Houghton Mifflin Company, 1920, pp. 69-145.

                Here are two passages describing mo with foil decorations.

                "For seven nights every ceremony was performed cloudlessly. Before
                the Queen in white the styles and colours of other people's dresses
                appeared in sharp contrast. 1 I felt much dazzled and abashed, and
                did not present myself in the daytime, so I passed my days in
                tranquillity and watched persons going up from the eastern side
                building across the bridge. Those who were permitted to wear the
                honourable colours 2 put on brocaded karaginu, 3 and also brocaded
                uchigi. This was the conventionally beautiful dress, not showing
                individual taste. The elderly ladies who could not wear the
                honourable colours avoided anything dazzling, but took only exquisite
                uchigi 1 trimmed with three or five folds, 2 and for karaginu brocade
                either of one colour or of a simple design. For their inner kimonos
                they used figured stuffs or gauzes. Their fans, though not at first
                glance brilliant or attractive, had some written phrases or
                sentiments in good taste, but almost exactly alike, as if they had
                compared notes beforehand. In point of fact the resemblance came from
                their similarity of age, and they were individual efforts. Even in
                those fans were revealed their minds which are in jealous rivalry.
                The younger ladies wore much-embroidered clothes; even their sleeve
                openings were embroidered. The pleats of their trains were ornamented
                with thick silver thread and they put gold foil on the brocaded
                figures of the silk. Their fans were like a snow-covered mountain in
                bright moonlight; they sparkled and could not be looked at steadily.
                They were like hanging mirrors [in those days made of polished
                metal]." [Pages 84-85]

                "More than thirty ladies were sitting in the two rooms east of the
                Queen's canopy, a magnificent sight. The august dinner trays were
                carried by unemé. 1 Near the entrance of the great chamber folding
                screens surrounded a pair of tables on which these dining-trays had
                been placed. As the night advanced the moon shone brightly. There
                were unemé, mohitori, 2 migusiagé, 3 tonomori, 4 kanmori-no-nyokwan,
                5 –some with whose faces I was not familiar. There were also door
                keepers, carelessly dressed and with hairpins falling out, crowded
                together towards the eastern corridor of the principal building as if
                it were a public holiday. There were so many people there was no
                getting through them. After dinner the maids-of-honour came outside
                the misu and could be plainly seen by the light of the torches. The
                train and karaginu of Lady Oshikibu was embroidered to represent the
                dwarf pine-wood at Mount Oshio. As she is the wife of Michinoku,
                Governor of the eastern extremity of the island, she serves now in
                the Prime Minister's household. Dayu-no-Miyobu neglected the
                ornamentation of her karaginu, but she adorned her train with silver
                dust representing sea-waves. It was pleasing to the eye, though not
                dazzling. Ben-no-Naishi showed on her train a beach with cranes on it
                painted in silver. It was something new. She had also embroidered
                pine branches; she is clever, for all these things are emblematic of
                a long life. The device of Lady Shosho was inferior to these–many
                laughed at her silver foil." [Pages 87-89]

                Makiwara
              • Anthony J. Bryant
                ... can you provide me with specific citations for this (approximate dates on the event) so I can check the original? I have grave misgivings about any
                Message 7 of 20 , Aug 25, 2004
                  makiwara_no_yetsuko wrote:


                  > Here are two passages describing mo with foil decorations.

                  <snip> can you provide me with specific citations for this (approximate dates on
                  the event) so I can check the original? I have grave misgivings about any
                  translation on this type of thing, and I want to see what the real text has to say.

                  From my experience, embroidery -- actual honest to God embroidery -- is so rare
                  as to be virtually non-existent in Japan. Often the term translated as
                  "embroidered" should really be "decorated" -- and more often than not is
                  actually painted or woven designs. It's one of the things where if the
                  translator only knows words and not objects, that sort of thing will happen.

                  It's like all those books (and, sadly dictionaries) that translate "yoroi"
                  (armour) as "coat of mail" -- as if the terms were synonymous!

                  Effingham
                  --

                  Anthony J. Bryant
                  Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

                  Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
                  http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

                  Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
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                • makiwara_no_yetsuko
                  ... is so rare ... as ... not is ... the ... will happen. I m working my way through Minnich on Japanese Costume. She says there are some very early
                  Message 8 of 20 , Aug 25, 2004
                    --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@i...>
                    wrote:
                    > From my experience, embroidery -- actual honest to God embroidery --
                    is so rare
                    > as to be virtually non-existent in Japan. Often the term translated
                    as
                    > "embroidered" should really be "decorated" -- and more often than
                    not is
                    > actually painted or woven designs. It's one of the things where if
                    the
                    > translator only knows words and not objects, that sort of thing
                    will happen.

                    I'm working my way through Minnich on Japanese Costume. She says
                    there are some very early embroideries (dates escaping me at the
                    moment), then, bang, embroidery goes away until centuries later. Her
                    book is 1960's vintage and her dependence on illustrating costume
                    styles from one period with artwork from a completely different time
                    period makes my hair hurt. Using 18th century woodblock prints as
                    depictions of Kamakura clothing is like documenting medieval armor
                    using N.C. Wyeth's illustrations for "King Arthur." Att least it has
                    photos of extant period textiles.


                    > It's like all those books (and, sadly dictionaries) that
                    translate "yoroi"
                    > (armour) as "coat of mail" -- as if the terms were synonymous!
                    Or "robe." For EVERYTHING.

                    Makiwara
                  • Mike Faragher
                    I can t find this on Sengoku Daimyo, and I figured I can save Effingham some trouble if someone else knows. Otherwise, he ll get this anyway. :) I m currently
                    Message 9 of 20 , Aug 25, 2004
                      I can't find this on Sengoku Daimyo, and I figured I can save Effingham some trouble if someone else knows. Otherwise, he'll get this anyway. :)

                      I'm currently looking at a m�gami d� with red (and yellow and maybe white for the decorate bits and mimi ito, respectively) lace and black plates. I'm not going to be able to make a printed fabric for this incarnation of my armor, so I was wondering what sort of solid color would be acceptable.

                      Thanks for any help you can provide,
                      Mike the Colorblind. ;)


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                    • Solveig
                      Takeda dono! Greetings from Solveig! ... As I recall, bronze is the predominant decorative metal in Japan. It enjoys a generally high status. Saddly, many
                      Message 10 of 20 , Aug 25, 2004
                        Takeda dono!

                        Greetings from Solveig!

                        >unpopular unless used as acccents. Most metals also were more
                        >appreciated if they were allowed to develop a patina, except gold.

                        As I recall, bronze is the predominant decorative metal in Japan. It enjoys
                        a generally high status. Saddly, many impliments that you buy today which
                        should be bronze are at best bronze plated.
                        --

                        Your Humble Servant
                        Solveig Throndardottir
                        Amateur Scholar

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                        | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                        | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
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                      • STEPHEN CHURCH
                        Hmm.. Really now, embroidery rare? Then why are the pictures (~1603) showing shops making embroidery thread and wrapping thread with gold foil along with
                        Message 11 of 20 , Aug 25, 2004
                          Hmm.. Really now, embroidery rare?

                          Then why are the pictures (~1603) showing shops making embroidery thread and
                          wrapping thread with gold foil along with pictures of workshops using
                          embroidery stands? For shops like this to exist, there must have been a
                          demand for it?
                          Why was the edict in 1591 written to limit embroidery to specific social
                          status?
                          Why was there a list of 20 different styles of embroidery stitches use for
                          making Noh costumes in the Muromachi period?

                          (Trades and Crafts of Japan, drawn by Iwasa Matabei 1578-1650; Kyoto Shoin
                          Art Library, Vol. 7, Embroidery; Patterns and Poetry: Noh Robes, by Iwoa
                          Nagasaki)

                          I just saw pictures of a Kosode in a museum in Boston, from a distance it
                          looks "decorated" but close up you can see that it was "embroidered" with a
                          couching stitch (komadori-katakoma).

                          I find it hard to believe that it was "rare", as the embroidery stitches
                          used are really easy, large threads (4 twisted threads, about twice the size
                          of present day embroidery thread), and the period style was thick, long
                          stitches, relaxed, large scale, and not delicate . Completely the opposite
                          of the Chinese ideology of miniscule, tiny, detailed designs.

                          Bun'ami

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...>
                          To: <sca-jml@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 12:24 PM
                          Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Embellishment of the Mo


                          > makiwara_no_yetsuko wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > > Here are two passages describing mo with foil decorations.
                          >
                          > <snip> can you provide me with specific citations for this (approximate
                          dates on
                          > the event) so I can check the original? I have grave misgivings about any
                          > translation on this type of thing, and I want to see what the real text
                          has to say.
                          >
                          > From my experience, embroidery -- actual honest to God embroidery -- is
                          so rare
                          > as to be virtually non-existent in Japan. Often the term translated as
                          > "embroidered" should really be "decorated" -- and more often than not is
                          > actually painted or woven designs. It's one of the things where if the
                          > translator only knows words and not objects, that sort of thing will
                          happen.
                          >
                          > It's like all those books (and, sadly dictionaries) that translate "yoroi"
                          > (armour) as "coat of mail" -- as if the terms were synonymous!
                          >
                          > Effingham
                          > --
                          >
                          > Anthony J. Bryant
                          > Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com
                          >
                          > Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
                          > http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html
                          >
                          > Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
                          > http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • jeremy_kroeker
                          I would use a light colour like white or off white. I ve seen dô maru and mogami dô with white mimi ito. Jeremy Kroeker
                          Message 12 of 20 , Aug 25, 2004
                            I would use a light colour like white or off white. I've seen dô
                            maru and mogami dô with white mimi ito.


                            Jeremy Kroeker
                          • Takematsu Toshiro
                            ... enough yuck in it to make that happen. I suspect this is not entirely correct-- after all, the amount of yuck in 15th c. Europe wasn t a lot different from
                            Message 13 of 20 , Aug 26, 2004
                              > Tarnishing...well, I am not certain of the following, but it was
                              > told to me by someone who is usually correct about bits of trivia.
                              > According to him, silver only started tarnishing in about the last
                              > 500 years. Before that, it seems, the atmosphere didn't have
                              enough yuck in it to make that happen.

                              I suspect this is not entirely correct-- after all, the amount of
                              yuck in 15th c. Europe wasn't a lot different from the previous
                              couple, and silverpoint sketching was done then (which I explain
                              against the chance of one being unfamiliar-- using a silver stylus to
                              make marks on a prepared, slightly abrasive surface). Tarnish is
                              basically oxidation, and while I'm sure it happens a lot FASTER now
                              with all the crap we've burnt/sprayed/unleashed, but silverpoint
                              doesn't work so well unless the lines go dark.
                            • sigrune@aol.com
                              ... Correct, bronze was a highly used metal in many impliments. Like in the west it was valued becuase it was relatively inexpensive to produce, was reasonably
                              Message 14 of 20 , Aug 26, 2004
                                >Takeda dono!
                                >Greetings from Solveig!

                                >>unpopular unless used as acccents. Most metals also were more
                                >>appreciated if they were allowed to develop a patina, except gold.

                                >As I recall, bronze is the predominant decorative metal in Japan. It enjoys
                                >a generally high status. Saddly, many impliments that you buy today which
                                >should be bronze are at best bronze plated.

                                Correct, bronze was a highly used metal in many impliments.
                                Like in the west it was valued becuase it was relatively
                                inexpensive to produce, was reasonably durable, especially when work hardened. Had a rich and lusterous tone, patinaed well, but not enough to dissolve (The zinc/tin content when sufficently high prevents a high formation of copper ozides rom developing, the tin/zinc/copper bond strong enough to prevent the gritty and brittle copper oxide (forget the chemical formula off hand, this in turn alows the surface to patina slightly and the resulting oxide layer is oxygen impregnable.) It was also valued because it shares a thermal exchange rate similar to copper (but not quite as good) Thus making it valueable in cookwear and kitchen impliments.

                                Copper was also highly used in Japan, Apparently there was little shortage of it, and I would have to say it was used almost as much as bronze/brass. Japan has long had a tradition of being a disposable society, copper impliments when corroded or worn out were frequently discarded and new ones obtained to replace them. (Look at the ammount of copper ladle fragments one finds in Nara, Osaka, and Kyoto)

                                Mundane uses aside Bronze was valuable and used extensively in temple/shrine objects, bronze is much easier to cast than copper (copper just loves to react with oxygen and become brittle and useless) and most of the common alloys that impart easy castablility and durability contain enough tin/zinc to polish to a rich gold-like luster. (I am sure that at one time or another many of those black/green buddas were devoutely scrubbed and rubbed by young monastics to give the illusion of a richly furnished temple, wear marks on many indicate this.)

                                For non-mundane items copper (due to it's ease of working) was often used as a base, and then plated/foiled to obtain the correct color to the desire of the artisan. I would have to say the vast majority of pre shin-shinto period arms and armor had fittings made of copper base and not bronze, or if it was bronze it was an extremely copper rich alloy (90%+)

                                There is a reason for this though, copper in Japan was viewed as a building block metal, notibly because gold, silver, niellio, lead, tin, zinc bronzes and brasses all bond to it easily. As a matter of fact, take a silver or tin washer, get it dead flat on a stone, polish it to a mirror gloss and to the same to a copper washer, set the mirror faces together, and smack it with a hammer. If it is clean it will stick together with a welded like bond. (Scientifically the pressure replaces the heat nessisary for brazing/welding and a fresh/clean surface precludes the need for a flux to reduce oxygen, a tight bond occurs on the molecular level)
                                Copper used as military fittings was usually plated or foiled to reduce the corrosion that would result from prolonged exposure to the elements.

                                Sorry for the novel, thought you would be interested.

                                -Takeda Sanjuichiro
                              • makiwara_no_yetsuko
                                ... thread and ... using ... Dates, Bun ami-dono. We were discussing the questionable nature of an English translation of a 10th century Heian diary, not 16th
                                Message 15 of 20 , Aug 26, 2004
                                  --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "STEPHEN CHURCH"
                                  <stephenpchurch@w...> wrote:
                                  > Hmm.. Really now, embroidery rare?

                                  > Then why are the pictures (~1603) showing shops making embroidery
                                  thread and
                                  > wrapping thread with gold foil along with pictures of workshops
                                  using
                                  > embroidery stands?

                                  Dates, Bun'ami-dono. We were discussing the questionable nature of an
                                  English translation of a 10th century Heian diary, not 16th century
                                  and later examples. According to the admittedly surface-scratching
                                  reading I've done so far, there are extant embroideries which pre-
                                  date the Heian period, then there's nothing until several centuries
                                  later and the technique is supposedly much cruder, as if knowledge of
                                  the technique was lost. If you know of extant examples of embroidery
                                  from Heian-kyo, please share!

                                  Makiwara
                                • STEPHEN CHURCH
                                  Ahh... My apologies for not reading all the e-mails. Yes, what you say seems to be true. The Embroidered Buddha figures are dated pre Heian ( I believe the
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Aug 26, 2004
                                    Ahh... My apologies for not reading all the e-mails.

                                    Yes, what you say seems to be true. The Embroidered Buddha figures are
                                    dated pre Heian ( I believe the earliest piece still surviving is the
                                    Tenjukoku Mandala Shuuchoo, 622) which then gave way to painted Buddhas
                                    instead of embroidered ones. It seems that the society during Heian drew on
                                    the confucian ideas of color and decoration, and embroidery did fall by the
                                    way side.
                                    I haven't been able to find any examples in the Heian Period, not until the
                                    Muromachi period do extent examples start to resurface.

                                    Bun'ami

                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "makiwara_no_yetsuko" <makiwara_no_yetsuko@...>
                                    To: <sca-jml@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 11:22 AM
                                    Subject: [SCA-JML] Embroidery, was Re: Embellishment of the Mo


                                    >
                                    > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "STEPHEN CHURCH"
                                    > <stephenpchurch@w...> wrote:
                                    >> Hmm.. Really now, embroidery rare?
                                    >
                                    >> Then why are the pictures (~1603) showing shops making embroidery
                                    > thread and
                                    >> wrapping thread with gold foil along with pictures of workshops
                                    > using
                                    >> embroidery stands?
                                    >
                                    > Dates, Bun'ami-dono. We were discussing the questionable nature of an
                                    > English translation of a 10th century Heian diary, not 16th century
                                    > and later examples. According to the admittedly surface-scratching
                                    > reading I've done so far, there are extant embroideries which pre-
                                    > date the Heian period, then there's nothing until several centuries
                                    > later and the technique is supposedly much cruder, as if knowledge of
                                    > the technique was lost. If you know of extant examples of embroidery
                                    > from Heian-kyo, please share!
                                    >
                                    > Makiwara
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
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                                  • Solveig
                                    Bun ami Sensei! Greetings from Solveig! Very late citations admit the strong possiblity that you are encountering stuff introduced by the Iberians. I can also
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Aug 26, 2004
                                      Bun'ami Sensei!

                                      Greetings from Solveig! Very late citations admit the strong possiblity that
                                      you are encountering stuff introduced by the Iberians. I can also document
                                      Japanese wearing lace ruffs during this period.

                                      >Why was there a list of 20 different styles of embroidery stitches use for
                                      >making Noh costumes in the Muromachi period?

                                      Where are you getting this one from? I'm pretty sure that Noh costumes are
                                      made from brocade not embroidered broad cloth.

                                      >(Trades and Crafts of Japan, drawn by Iwasa Matabei 1578-1650; Kyoto Shoin
                                      >Art Library, Vol. 7, Embroidery; Patterns and Poetry: Noh Robes, by Iwoa
                                      >Nagasaki)

                                      AHH! I must take a look at it.
                                      --

                                      Your Humble Servant
                                      Solveig Throndardottir
                                      Amateur Scholar

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                                      | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
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                                    • Anthony J. Bryant
                                      ... Well, we were talking about Heian. Effingham -- Anthony J. Bryant Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com Effingham s Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Sep 5, 2004
                                        STEPHEN CHURCH wrote:

                                        > Hmm.. Really now, embroidery rare?

                                        Well, we were talking about Heian.

                                        Effingham
                                        --

                                        Anthony J. Bryant
                                        Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

                                        Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
                                        http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

                                        Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
                                        http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder
                                      • Anthony J. Bryant
                                        ... Ummm... decorative bits ? Other than the mimi ito, what decorative bits? As a rule, multi-color lacing on sugake odoshi was rarer than hen s teeth.
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Sep 5, 2004
                                          Mike Faragher wrote:

                                          > I can't find this on Sengoku Daimyo, and I figured I can save Effingham some
                                          > trouble if someone else knows. Otherwise, he'll get this anyway. :)
                                          >
                                          > I'm currently looking at a môgami dô with red (and yellow and maybe white for
                                          > the decorate bits and mimi ito, respectively) lace and black plates. I'm not
                                          > going to be able to make a printed fabric for this incarnation of my armor,
                                          > so I was wondering what sort of solid color would be acceptable.

                                          Ummm... "decorative bits"? Other than the mimi ito, what decorative bits? As a
                                          rule, multi-color lacing on sugake odoshi was rarer than hen's teeth.

                                          Effingham
                                          --

                                          Anthony J. Bryant
                                          Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

                                          Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
                                          http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

                                          Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
                                          http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder
                                        • Mike Faragher
                                          I was talking about the hishinui. I m still trying to get these lacing terms down. :) I m certainly not going to have a multicolor sugake odoshi. I m swamped
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Sep 5, 2004
                                            I was talking about the hishinui. I'm still trying to get these lacing terms down. :)

                                            I'm certainly not going to have a multicolor sugake odoshi.

                                            I'm swamped now with school, but I'll finish a sode up so you can yay or nay my lacing.

                                            Mike

                                            "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:
                                            Ummm... "decorative bits"? Other than the mimi ito, what decorative bits? As a
                                            rule, multi-color lacing on sugake odoshi was rarer than hen's teeth.

                                            Effingham


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