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Re: [SCA-JML] Translation

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  • Barbara Nostrand
    Baron Edward! I am not really sure that Fumio Sensei is asking about a classical Japanese piece. Rather, I suspect that he wants to name a piece that his Taiko
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 6 6:46 AM
      Baron Edward!

      I am not really sure that Fumio Sensei is asking about a classical
      Japanese piece. Rather, I suspect that he wants to name a piece that
      his Taiko group composed.

      Your Humble Servant
      Solveig Throndardottir
      Amateur Scholar
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    • markejag@aol.com
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 7 4:43 AM
        << I am not really sure that Fumio Sensei is asking about a classical
        Japanese piece. Rather, I suspect that he wants to name a piece that
        his Taiko group composed. >>

        Bingo! The Silvan King asked if the Taiko group would play just before the
        field battle, we put together a conch shell horn, small gong and the drums to
        for a 'war cry' to inspire the warriors and would like a spiffy name to call
        the piece.

        Fumio
      • Barbara Nostrand
        Master Fumio! How about some Hachiman Jinku or something like that? Your Humble Servant Solveig Throndardottir Amateur Scholar --
        Message 3 of 18 , Aug 7 11:52 AM
          Master Fumio!

          How about some Hachiman Jinku or something like that?

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar
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        • markejag@aol.com
          Solveig, How does Hachiman Hakushi sound to you? Fumio
          Message 4 of 18 , Aug 8 11:32 AM
            Solveig,

            How does Hachiman Hakushi sound to you?

            Fumio
          • Barbara Nostrand
            Morien Dai Sensei! Which hakushi are you thinking of and why? Jinku is a song name element which is correctly slotted in my suggestion. Further, jinku is a
            Message 5 of 18 , Aug 8 12:49 PM
              Morien Dai Sensei!

              Which "hakushi" are you thinking of and why? Jinku is a song name
              element which is correctly slotted in my suggestion. Further,
              jinku is a music genre. I do not know whether or not your piece
              will fit into that genre or not. One advantage of jinku is that
              it does not require words. You could have Hachiman no uta, but
              that would possibly imply words. Jinku tends to have a pronounced
              and relatively fast rhythm. Technically, jinku should have 7-7-7-5
              rhythm. You haven't told me what your basic drum pattern is. One
              possibility would be to have Hachiman <musical pattern> as a name.
              This is fairly common in Japan.

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar
              --
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            • Anthony J. Bryant
              ... Personally, I like Senkou daiko ... The advantage of using onyomi is that it has the snob appeal in Japanese of Latin in English. Effingham
              Message 6 of 18 , Aug 8 3:23 PM
                markejag@... wrote:

                > Solveig,
                >
                > How does Hachiman Hakushi sound to you?
                >

                Personally, I like "Senkou daiko"...

                The advantage of using onyomi is that it has the snob appeal in Japanese of
                Latin in English.


                Effingham
              • Barbara Nostrand
                Noble Cousins! While I agree with Baron Edward about the snob appeal of onyomi, I m not sure that it is appropriate in this instance. I should point out that
                Message 7 of 18 , Aug 8 4:03 PM
                  Noble Cousins!

                  While I agree with Baron Edward about the snob appeal of onyomi,
                  I'm not sure that it is appropriate in this instance. I should
                  point out that jinku is an onyomi word. Thus, the second half
                  has a bit of snob appeal. I suppose that I could try to look up
                  the Chinese equivalent for Hachiman, but the Japanese are quite
                  happy to combine Hachiman with onyomi endings such a guu.

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar
                  --
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                • Barbara Nostrand
                  Noble Cousins! Lots and lots of traditional Japanese music have names with the form + . We have things like uta, jinku, okesa, &c. This is
                  Message 8 of 18 , Aug 8 4:06 PM
                    Noble Cousins!

                    Lots and lots of traditional Japanese music have names with the form
                    <descriptive>+<type>. We have things like uta, jinku, okesa, &c. This
                    is not so strange. The French and Germans do this on a regular basis.

                    Your Humble Servant
                    Solveig Throndardottir
                    Amateur Scholar
                    --
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                    | de Moivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
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                  • Anthony J. Bryant
                    ... Very true. I was just thinking that senkou daiko has that meaning of war-beat drums that was initially asked about. And since it wasn t uncommon to add
                    Message 9 of 18 , Aug 8 5:11 PM
                      Barbara Nostrand wrote:

                      > Noble Cousins!
                      >
                      > While I agree with Baron Edward about the snob appeal of onyomi,
                      > I'm not sure that it is appropriate in this instance. I should
                      > point out that jinku is an onyomi word. Thus, the second half
                      > has a bit of snob appeal. I suppose that I could try to look up
                      > the Chinese equivalent for Hachiman, but the Japanese are quite
                      > happy to combine Hachiman with onyomi endings such a guu.

                      Very true.

                      I was just thinking that "senkou daiko" has that meaning of "war-beat
                      drums" that was initially asked about. And since it wasn't uncommon to add
                      "-daiko" to music titles (e.g., "abare daiko" "tsutsumi daiko") I thought
                      it might fit.

                      Edward
                      still feeling a bit queasy, but hoping to leave VERY soon for Pennsic.Sigh.
                      Tomorrow morning? Sigh. Sigh.
                    • Anthony J. Bryant
                      ... Actually, this brings up something I ve wondered about. What is your take of the difference between kyoku and uta? I don t know if we can clearly state
                      Message 10 of 18 , Aug 8 5:16 PM
                        Barbara Nostrand wrote:

                        > Noble Cousins!
                        >
                        > Lots and lots of traditional Japanese music have names with the form
                        > <descriptive>+<type>. We have things like uta, jinku, okesa, &c. This
                        > is not so strange. The French and Germans do this on a regular basis.
                        >

                        Actually, this brings up something I've wondered about. What is your take
                        of the difference between kyoku and uta? I don't know if we can clearly
                        state what it is, as the actual definition and meaning seem to fluctuate
                        from time to time, but overall, there's a nuance I'm not really 100% sure I
                        can wrap my brain around.

                        Effingham
                      • Barbara Nostrand
                        Baron Edward! Please recover your health, and take good care of yourself. Everything here has been chaotic. I do have lots of books on shelves now. Sadly, not
                        Message 11 of 18 , Aug 8 5:35 PM
                          Baron Edward!

                          Please recover your health, and take good care of yourself.
                          Everything here has been chaotic. I do have lots of books
                          on shelves now. Sadly, not necessisarily the ones that I
                          most need at the moment. I've also felt under the weather
                          the last few days. Queezy GI tract, that sort of thing.

                          Your Humble Servant
                          Solveig Throndardottir
                          Amateur Scholar
                          --
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                        • Barbara Nostrand
                          Baron Edward! Uta is of course pretty generic and can refer to a bunch of things. It is also written with several kanji which can be selected to be more
                          Message 12 of 18 , Aug 8 5:53 PM
                            Baron Edward!

                            Uta is of course pretty generic and can refer to a bunch of things.
                            It is also written with several kanji which can be selected to be
                            more specific. Kyoku is of course more specific. It refers to either
                            a song or an instrumental piece, but not to a poem. The secondary
                            meanings for kyoku are rather interesting don't you think? Kyoku
                            can also refer to a mistake or error, or miscellaneous transformations.
                            The word is overloaded in a way that uta is not. To be honest, I have
                            not seen kyoku used a whole lot by itself. The examples of kyoku in
                            Daijirin are themselves interesting. One is reflects the use of the
                            word when naming pieces of Western music. (The example is of a
                            piano "kyoku" or "piece'.) The other example seems rather abstract
                            and indefinite except for the emotional impact. "Kanashii kyoku ga
                            kikoeru.") Do we know when "kyoku" came to be used a lot? Maybe it
                            would be used in the names of Chinese or Korean music?

                            Your Humble Servant
                            Solveig Throndardottir
                            Amateur Scholar
                            --
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                            | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM |
                            | de Moivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
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                          • Anthony J. Bryant
                            ... Gee, I wonder if we were in the same room recently... . When are you planning on getting to Pennsic? That s exactly my problem. I ve had a bug for
                            Message 13 of 18 , Aug 8 7:03 PM
                              Barbara Nostrand wrote:

                              > Baron Edward!
                              >
                              > Please recover your health, and take good care of yourself.
                              > Everything here has been chaotic. I do have lots of books
                              > on shelves now. Sadly, not necessisarily the ones that I
                              > most need at the moment. I've also felt under the weather
                              > the last few days. Queezy GI tract, that sort of thing.

                              Gee, I wonder if we were in the same room recently... <wry g>. When are you
                              planning on getting to Pennsic?

                              That's exactly my problem. I've had a bug for about a week, and it's really
                              kept me horizontal for a while, but even though I'm finally more up and
                              around, I'm still... um, let's just say I don't want to see Pennsic from
                              inside a porta-john.

                              Effingham
                            • Anthony J. Bryant
                              ... True. In a lot of Heian lit, it specifically refers to a poem, in fact. ... That s one thing I really like about Japanese... gives great opportunities to
                              Message 14 of 18 , Aug 8 7:11 PM
                                Barbara Nostrand wrote:

                                > Baron Edward!
                                >
                                > Uta is of course pretty generic and can refer to a bunch of things.

                                True. In a lot of Heian lit, it specifically refers to a poem, in fact.

                                >
                                > It is also written with several kanji which can be selected to be
                                > more specific.

                                That's one thing I really like about Japanese... gives great opportunities
                                to shade the meaning of the written word.

                                > Kyoku is of course more specific. It refers to either
                                > a song or an instrumental piece, but not to a poem.

                                I think that's what was throwing me. I've been spending so much time with
                                my head in Heian lit that uta is starting to be not music to me, and so
                                when I hear it used for a kyoku, I think, "what's wrong with this
                                picture?"...

                                > The secondary
                                > meanings for kyoku are rather interesting don't you think? Kyoku
                                > can also refer to a mistake or error, or miscellaneous transformations.
                                > The word is overloaded in a way that uta is not. To be honest, I have
                                > not seen kyoku used a whole lot by itself. The examples of kyoku in
                                > Daijirin are themselves interesting. One is reflects the use of the
                                > word when naming pieces of Western music. (The example is of a
                                > piano "kyoku" or "piece'.)

                                Excellent point. In colloquial usage, as well, both Misora Hibari and
                                Madonna perform "uta", but Heifitz plays kyoku. Old koto, shamisen, and
                                shakuhachi pieces... are those kyoku or uta? The title is "uta" often, but
                                people tend to refer to them as "kyoku." I wonder if the distinction
                                between lyric/no-lyric is modern, and if so, how modern.

                                > The other example seems rather abstract
                                > and indefinite except for the emotional impact. "Kanashii kyoku ga
                                > kikoeru.") Do we know when "kyoku" came to be used a lot? Maybe it
                                > would be used in the names of Chinese or Korean music?

                                Would be worth looking up at some point. Maybe when I have time on my
                                hands....


                                Effingham
                              • Barbara Nostrand
                                Noble Cousins! My copy of the big costume book arrived in the mail today! Your Humble Servant Solveig Throndardottir Amateur Scholar --
                                Message 15 of 18 , Sep 13, 2000
                                  Noble Cousins!

                                  My copy of the big costume book arrived in the mail today!

                                  Your Humble Servant
                                  Solveig Throndardottir
                                  Amateur Scholar
                                  --
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                                • Barbara Nostrand
                                  Noble Cousins! It may be possible to obtain the nuikata book cheaper from kinokuniya s Japanese web page. Also, Kinokuniya accepts Visa and Mastercard. The
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Sep 13, 2000
                                    Noble Cousins!

                                    It may be possible to obtain the nuikata book cheaper from
                                    kinokuniya's Japanese web page. Also, Kinokuniya accepts
                                    Visa and Mastercard. The ISBN for the book is:

                                    4-7739-8405-8

                                    It will never be an inexpensive book. It costs 18,000 yen
                                    plus tax in Japan. That is approximately $180.00 to start
                                    out with. Considering how bad markups on Japanese books
                                    can be over-the-counter in the United States, anything
                                    less than about $360.00 is reasonable. (I know one
                                    company in the U.S. which will double the Japanese price
                                    and then add $10.00 for domestic U.S. shipping.)

                                    Your Humble Servant
                                    Solveig Throndardottir
                                    Amateur Scholar
                                    --
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